Why Radical Pro-Lifers Are Wasting Their Time

[wynnejj]

The fact that worldwide abortion has decreased by almost 20% …

May I ask what is your source?

 

[BarbGl]

I think that abortion is totally wrong, but I would have to agree that most pro-lifers are wasting their time. How is it going to change anything to picket in front of the abortion clinic? Maybe it will do a little good. Try to make the regulations stifling, that might help a little.

Take away the money and it will dry up. I have read that abortion clinics have quotas - they have to do so many abortions to pay the bills. They can do a little gynecologic health, but without the abortions they can’t make ends meet. Without a certain number, they would have to close their doors. To pay the bills they have to convince scared girls into doing things they will regret later. I think if it were made illegal to take money for this the industry would not be able to survive. I’m not sure of a practical way to do this without back alley abortions coming back, but if it could be figured out how to take the profit out of this, I think it would change the situation.

 

[Auntie_A]

I am sad to admit it, but the numbers don’t surprise me much. The Church is large, and many who follow her do so only in a loose way…What is a shame is when so many lives are at stake. The secular culture infects the Church’s culture.

YES! What most people see as accepted or legal is what most people believe is right or just. Few stop to question things.
Look at any culture that has dealt with the annhilation of its other citizens: Native Americans in the U.S.; Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, retarded, disabled, and many others interred and killed in Hitler’s Third Reich; all of the “undesirables” of the U.S.S.R. under Stalin who were killed quickly or slowly in Siberia; China’s extermination of millions in Mao’s “Cultural Revolution”. Many of the unaffected citizens believed that things were right because it was the law, and that their good government represents the law, so as long as it doesn’t affect ME, then I have no problem with the law, and you know the rest: THEREFORE it must be right that my neighbor was hauled off to prison or shot in the street.

We rationalize our barbaric, but LEGAL abortion practices, because it is the law. And as Catholics we are called to good citizenship. So most of us are too uneasy to stand against a law. It makes us have to think and question things, and perhaps upset a convenience-centered world.

The evil in our abortion culture is in the word “RIGHT”. The word has been stretched and pulled like Silly Putty so much that we have aborted our country and world into genocide, femicide (Many more females are aborted than males), and into the chaos of asserting my “RIGHTS” over others’. Abortion is now such an easy, legally accessed practice that many people assume it as an easy option. We do not see the result. Abortion is discreet and confidential, the wounds are invisible. The victims have no voice.

All logical arguments about a “Right to my body” pale when you are brave enough to face the truth about abortion: It is not a simple removal of a polyp. A polyp grows into a polyp; a fetus grows into a larger and larger human who moves outside the mother’s body and continues to grow as a human. Abortion kills a human life.

In our culture, this discussion is like paddling against the rapids; the words about RIGHTS to control one’s body supercede the RIGHT of a human to live within and then outside of a body. When did this change in values happen? Why? Certain well-meaning women’s rights activists bought a “bill of goods” from certain eugenics proponents like Margaret Sanger. Most other early women’s rights leaders were extremely pro-life, pro-female. But Sanger’s views somehow were inserted into feminist agenda…Hmmmmm-why is this and why did it become such an overused mantra? The “Feminists for Life” group had a very strong, pro-female/pro-life message: why has this point of view been suppressed? How have society’s values been shaped and crafted AND who is behind the present abortion culture?

The fetal development films and photos, the advances in ultrasound technology, and the legal cases that cite the loss of a pre-born child as the loss of a HUMAN life–all of these examples unsettle us when we are fixated only on a woman’s RIGHT to her own body. When the women of “Silent No More” discuss the terrible longterm psychological effects of abortion, how does the RIGHT to one’s body stand up. We follow the law of the land as our moral guide; but do we know how to take a stand when the law of the land is haywire? Do people, Catholic or not, know how to prioritize values?

For a Catholic, or anyone with a conscience, the question is: What is law? Where do laws stem from? What are morals? Do morals allow us to live closer to cultural strength and happiness? Or does asserting one’s individual rights make a strong culture and create happiness? Do we make up our morals or rules to please ourselves or are morals formed through years of observing consequences of human choice on a culture. What do we do when the laws of a land are somehow opposed to a moral view? What happens to a culture when it easily and legally disposes of its weakest, sickest, smallest? Do God’s laws get in the way of our modern need for convenience? Throughout history how has turning one’s back on moral laws destroyed a culture? How has turning one’s back on God’s greatest gift, LIFE, destroyed our culture?

Are we so anesthetized that we cannot take a stand?

 

[gmanlq]

Bottom line:
God is pro life.
Satan is pro abortion or pro choice however you want to call it.
Choose wisely with eternity in mind.

 

[Thorsson]

From the areticle: “But while the Catholic bishops have to toe the Vatican line, the Catholic laity doesn’t.”

I don’t have the RAM to express how ridiculous this statement is.

Is this an actual quote?!?
WTFlip? This is the epitome of either just ignorance in media or down right deception. Neither of which reflects well on the medias treatment of those with ANY religious belief…or any belief outside shopping for secular values based on mindless consumerism.

 

[Sair]

The essential false idea is that women have the right to choose what happens when they get pregnant. In those cases where consent is involved, young women were taught about sex but nothing about relationships. So, if the husband or boyfriend encourages them or coerces them, it may influence their decision. If the husband or boyfriend disappears. No biggie. He’s off the hook. The irrational part? The woman did not get pregnant by herself but it’s always phrased as “a woman’s right to choose.” The man becomes a non-entity.

There are cases in which the male - either voluntarily or through ignorance - makes himself a nonentity in the decision.

If sex is involved without at least some understanding of the implications, can one really say that consent was given for everything that might ensue? Don’t you require full knowledge for full consent, even according to Catholic teaching?

And although I believe the man involved has some rights to decision, should he actually choose to be involved after the initial act, he has much less at stake, in practice, than the female. This is true of all mammals, which is why females of many species are generally far more choosy about their mates. The choice has to rest ultimately with the woman, unless you want to see her as a mere incubator, subject only to the wishes of others - in short, as less of a person than the foetus you seek to defend.

Speaking of which, you cannot - practically or philosophically - count the foetus as one of those others involved in the decision - although fully human in all ways that matter biologically (after all, it’s not going to develop into a dog or a pig or an elephant), it has no sentience before a certain stage of development - arguably, no earlier than about 24 weeks’ gestation. It has no more say in the matter, in terms of its own interests, than if it were a carrot you pulled out of the ground to eat.

 

[Sair]

This thread seems to be missing a point - that poll found that the majority of Catholics thought it should remain legal, but doesn’t mean that they don’t agree that it’s morally wrong. The unfortunate reality of the situation is that legally prohibiting abortion puts more lives in danger.

I know we’re supposed to stand up for what’s morally right, but when it boils down, you have the choice of one life being put in danger, or two. And I just can’t imagine that the scenario put two in danger is better, especially when the most fragile and innocent life is always in danger either way.

You make a very good point here - and it’s one shared by those who advocate harm-reduction strategies when it comes to things like drug and alcohol abuse. Better is better, even if it isn’t perfect. Sometimes, if you want to improve matters for anyone involved, you have to step back from the absolutist position and allow people to make their own decisions - provide support, but don’t dictate. That’s difficult for any religion that claims to own the absolute truth…

 

[Sair]

Is this risk worth it just to say that you’re “on the right side of the issue?” Does the fact that the mother is aborting her baby make her life more expendable?

I think you’ll find that those most rabidly opposed to abortion actually do have that attitude, deep-down and perhaps seldom acknowledged. If they are willing to see a woman as nothing but an incubator, with no right of decision over her own body or the rest of her life, essentially (once she has committed the heinous crime of having sex only for pleasure), it’s a short step towards seeing her as completely expendable. Self-righteousness is a powerful force…

An interesting note, and one that would make for an interesting thread which I might start, is that the strongest data suggest that where contraception is widely available, abortions are drastically reduced, for obvious reasons. But let’s save that for a different thread Look for it tomorrow perhaps!

And that is another area in which the so-called ‘pro-life’ stance performs a logical face-plant. But as you say, it’s best saved for another thread!

 

[wynnejj]

Anywho, what I’m saying is that there is no evidence to show that legalizing abortion increases the number of abortions that actually happen.

There sure is in the United States. Have you ever seen the rapid rise of the abortion numbers from the CDC from 1973 to its peak in 1990 and then its slow decline thereafter. All those doctors who were doing it on the side illegally were suddenly legal after 1973. It may have taken a year or two for the registered legal abortions to be a reliable indicator of the true trend, but from 1975 on, one ought to be confident that abortions greatly increased to its peak greatly outrunning population growth. And how much of the decline thereafter has to do with emergency contraception - the morning after pill? I really don’t think your argument is reasonable here.

 

[DeaconPaulY]

I am not convinced that poor catechesis is the problem. it may be part of the problem but the people in our diocese have received comprehensive catechesis on this subject and yet, a significant number of them still vote for Democrats who support abortion, homosexuality, embryonic stem cell research, and every other abomination to God.

I think the real problem is selfishness. We have raised a generation or two where self has become the god and our independent freedom is infinitely more import than responsibility to other human beings. cohabitational fornication, abortion, a record divorce rate, infidelity on a scale that would make ancient Rome blush, and our exalted right to privacy all seem to me to be symptomatic of a society drunk with selfishness.

Faithful Catholics and those of other faiths with similar values are the light shining in the darkness. God will end this age of disobedience when we pray and sacrifice enough to compel God’s infinite love and power to send Satan and his minion back where they belong.

Peace and Blessings, Deacon Paul

 

[GregBussey]

I think you’ll find that those most rabidly opposed to abortion actually do have that attitude, deep-down and perhaps seldom acknowledged. If they are willing to see a woman as nothing but an incubator, with no right of decision over her own body or the rest of her life, essentially (once she has committed the heinous crime of having sex only for pleasure), it’s a short step towards seeing her as completely expendable. Self-righteousness is a powerful force…

But your right to throw a punch ends precisely at my nose because I too have rights. You are arguing that the woman’s right to not be pregnant supercedes her fetus’s right to not be killed. I think you have to admit that being killed is more of an infringement of rights than being required to carry a baby to term.

 

[GregBussey]

From the areticle: “But while the Catholic bishops have to toe the Vatican line, the Catholic laity doesn’t.”

I don’t have the RAM to express how ridiculous this statement is.

I agree it is ridiculous, but I think the point is that while “Church” can refer to the magisterium, it can also refer to the members making up the body of Christ, the collective laity.

According to CatholicVote.com, 42% of mass-attending Catholics voted for the abortion president this time around. Now, the bishops do have full authority to order pro-life messages to be read from the pulpit but they decline to do so. Why? It would seem that they view unity with the laity to be more important than catechesis about abortion. Indeed Jesus prayed for unity, and Paul reminds the Corinthians that all Christians need each other.

Yes, we can and should continue to work for laws against abortion (which do reduce the incidence of abortion) and we can and should support education efforts on fetal development (which is swaying public opinion). And we can and should continue to pray and offer penance. However, let’s not forget that holiness is a process. Our consciences must be formed. Therefore, just because a Catholic doesn’t recognize the evil of abortion when she is 18 doesn’t mean she won’t grow into that understanding over time with God’s grace.

 

[fix]

I am not convinced that poor catechesis is the problem. it may be part of the problem but the people in our diocese have received comprehensive catechesis on this subject and yet, a significant number of them still vote for Democrats who support abortion, homosexuality, embryonic stem cell research, and every other abomination to God.

I think the real problem is selfishness. We have raised a generation or two where self has become the god and our independent freedom is infinitely more import than responsibility to other human beings. cohabitational fornication, abortion, a record divorce rate, infidelity on a scale that would make ancient Rome blush, and our exalted right to privacy all seem to me to be symptomatic of a society drunk with selfishness.

Faithful Catholics and those of other faiths with similar values are the light shining in the darkness. God will end this age of disobedience when we pray and sacrifice enough to compel God’s infinite love and power to send Satan and his minion back where they belong.

Peace and Blessings, Deacon Paul

:clapping::clapping:

 

[wynnejj]

Therefore, just because a Catholic doesn’t recognize the evil of abortion when she is 18 doesn’t mean she won’t grow into that understanding over time with God’s grace.

Have you given this hypothesis the 1st grade Holy Communion class litmus test?

 

[wynnejj]

And although I believe the man involved has some rights to decision, should he actually choose to be involved after the initial act, he has much less at stake, in practice, than the female. This is true of all mammals, which is why females of many species are generally far more choosy about their mates. The choice has to rest ultimately with the woman, unless you want to see her as a mere incubator, subject only to the wishes of others - in short, as less of a person than the foetus you seek to defend.

Give man a hammer and every woman becomes someone to be nailed! What I don’t get is why females of the human branch of mammals are less choosy about their mates ever since unrestricted abortion-on-demand in the USA. Don’t they realize that they are an incubator just waiting to happen? Why must a foetus be treated like feces? It is interesting that there is a word for an illegitimate child whose negative connotation is more aptly applied to the father & mother who were not properly committed to the responsibility of conceiving a child. You simply want to legitimize morally illegitimate behavior by all standards of all the major religions of the world. How can sexual misbehavior go from a capital offense in past times to a ha-ha “boys will be boys” & “well, she was begging for it” mentality. This is sociopathic behavior!

 

[wynnejj]

I think you’ll find that those most rabidly opposed to abortion actually do have that attitude, deep-down and perhaps seldom acknowledged. If they are willing to see a woman as nothing but an incubator, with no right of decision over her own body or the rest of her life, essentially (once she has committed the heinous crime of having sex only for pleasure), it’s a short step towards seeing her as completely expendable. Self-righteousness is a powerful force…

If you are a hunter who hunts for pleasure and you accidentally shoot another hunter, would you put the other hunter down or take responsibility for his care? If I shoot a gun in a populated area for pleasure (maybe, shooting skwerls) not aiming at anyone, in fact taking pains to avoid hitting anyone, yet someone gets shot, should I just finish the job? Should the law accept termination-on-demand due to accident, especially an “unwanted” accident? What we are talking about is taking responsibility for human life that one’s actions have greatly affected.

 

[wynnejj]

I chuckle at the adjective “rabidly”.

I’ve often thought about what my stance would be on abortion if in fact I was a non-believer in Christianity. If I believed that there was nothing sacred about human life, any more than, let’s say, my dog whom is my best friend. In that case, the sentience argument, and most especially the absence of brain & pain centers, would be compelling to me. That is not to say that I would consider casual sexual behavior moral. It makes no sense to do actions that create life, then simply destroy it for convenience. Yet, I would be inclined to apply an SPCA mentality to the legal answer. I would tend to agree that the 1st trimester baby could be aborted for serious reasons. I’d be especially accepting of a morning after pill.

None of that matters, though, because Jesus is Lord and our brother. We are sacred as his brother by that very fact. Therefore, I cannot deny this belief and am duty bound to do all to protect human life in all stages. Such a belief goes beyond requiring a super majority consensus opinion from all groups in pluralistic society. If a majority of Christians can be persuaded of the lack of wiggle room on the sacredness of life from conception to death, then it is incumbent upon our duty to impose, not propose, the codification of a full Human Life Amendment.

Well, shut my mouth and call me “rabid”.

 

[Dawnia]

Speaking of which, you cannot - practically or philosophically - count the foetus as one of those others involved in the decision - although fully human in all ways that matter biologically (after all, it’s not going to develop into a dog or a pig or an elephant), it has no sentience before a certain stage of development - arguably, no earlier than about 24 weeks’ gestation. It has no more say in the matter, in terms of its own interests, than if it were a carrot you pulled out of the ground to eat.

Practically speaking a child doesn’t have a say over anything done to them until they are around 18 or so. Adults have to provide for them, protect them, etc. So why should adults not get to decide whether or not their 13 year old should get to live or not? After all they’re not really people until they have legal autonomy.

Why kill babies? Wait until they’re teenagers and do something to deserve it. (Not serious here.)

 

[wynnejj]

Are we so anesthetized that we cannot take a stand?

Excellent post. The abortion pain killer prescription has anesthetized American society to a point that many are no longer morally sentient with undeveloped moral brain & pain centers.