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Faith1960
Guest
I think I might go to confession tonight and ask my priest.
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Michael19682
Guest
This really isn’t the forum where I respond, but there is a faith based answer that has been hinted at.
As it is written,
“Thou shall not put the lord your God to the test.”
It is very difficult to study God without falling into the trap of testing him. No one is so remote from God, so unconcerned with the outcome of such a study, double blind or not, as to be immune to the vice of “testing” God in such a circumstance.
Even an atheist, someone supposedly ill concerned entirely, would confound the results because they are de facto, testing. God remains real despite the outcomes and the people used to obtain them both.
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Trident_H
Guest
Yeah. I think they wanted to find a way to break the rules. To prove faith. And that would be trying to trick God into revealing His action. A way of fooling Him into falling in line with their expectations. Or not falling in. Or whatever.
To be able to do what? Prescribe God like a medicine? Give Him out as a dosage? Take one of these pills and fifty-two Hail Mary’s?
Yep. All the same thing in common too. Test God. See if He’ll come to class. But He won’t. Because that’s not what He’s after. He doesn’t need outside help in this. He doesn’t need white coats to prove His existence to Him.
I mean imagine how silly it must seem to Him. How unimaginative. How trite. And how utterly un-engaging. Because God told us already how to reach Him. So if those white coats had wanted they could have come to His Church. And visited with Him a while. And then written how they felt afterwards in their charts. Because that’s what He’s set up. Don’t try to wag the dog. Or the God. I guess.
Peace Girl. May the force be with you too. The good type of force.
-Trident
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Trident_H
Guest
Let’s see. You said no one was trying to fool God. But here you are trying to fool me into agreeing with you that you can judge God like that. That you can stand up to the unimaginable and unconfined unknown. And then just imagine He is confined to the known. That He has to dance to a certain tune. A tune you’re already set to play.
It’s really a thing when you do that. It’s really a bit of a surprise. Because it’s just so illogical. And you seem to be a really rational person. A really smart one. I don’t know. Maybe there’s something I’m not seeing here. Maybe it’s something really obvious. And I’m missing it.
Peace DG.
-Trident
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Trident_H
Guest
Wow. You really tailed me on this. Took me each time. Followed me and pounced! I like that. I like the feeling of the wind in my hair. As I run just ahead of you. Tag me again. It’s fun.
So let’s see what you’ve brought into the courtroom this time. Let’s see what rules that God’s made that have trapped Him in some way.
“Ask and it will be given to you.” So you’re asking. And God’s telling me what to say. So you’re getting. No problem.
“Seek, and ye shall find.” So the white coats are seeking in the jungle. Looking there for a sand dune. When God already told them where to find one. Seek in the right place. I don’t go to the taco place to look for Chinese food.
“Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” The Church has nice big doors. Knock on them. Whenever you need. They’ll be opened. And you’ll be helped. I know this first hand. From when I was in that self-destructive place. When all I cared about was me. I leaned on those doors hard. And I got what I needed. To get through one more day.
Peace DG. I always worry a little about where you’re at. I always worry that you’re stuck in a shower door or something. Or a hot room with a lot of steam anyway. With only a small window. Because your avatar sort of shows that. And I mean I worry a lot. I keep wanting to open that door. So maybe that’s you knocking? I don’t know.
-Trident
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Faith1960
Guest
Are you a Christian?
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Trident_H
Guest
Well I didn’t see that coming!
Yeah. It might. But you and I know what the headlines would read. Just like His non-response could be a number of things happening. But you’re not thinking of any of those. You’re not on to any of those other things. You’re on one track with this. Just like the world would be if the proof was in. Written up in a peer-review.
That’s a funny thing to say. Because you’re not really confused. And you already know the answer. :tsktsk: <–Sorry. I always wanted to use that guy. I’ve usually worried it’d be used on me first though.
I know why you’re saying this. I mean I do. But there’s a different point to think on here. Jesus said it was faith of a certain size that did stuff. Not prayer. Sure prayer can be an expression of faith. But prayer said with no heart is dead. So what you’re saying in all this is just the opposite of what would help. Because the test is on faith.
So you can’t bring a study into the room on this. You can’t lay down a study showing this. Or a study showing that. Because that erases faith. That knocks it out of the park. So the study kills the thing it’s supposed to prove.
I don’t know about that. I mean why doesn’t God take out an ad Himself it that’s how He wanted it done?
Because when a guy holds up a sign by the side of the road encouraging everyone to pray, he’s not proving anything. It’s still up to them. It’s still up to faith.
But when the sign has a little asterix on it. A little symbol that then tells the readers that 7 out of 9 papers have proven this to work. Well then people are running into that with the wrong set of goals. The wrong set of expectations. It’s not about faith then. It’s about odds. And calculating the right number of people needed to game the system. But with God. There’s no obvious system at play. So why would He want white coats to make one?
And He did. He handled them just fine.
Wow. You sure know a lot about God. You sure have a good idea of what He wants. So why don’t you do that then? Why don’t you do what He wants?
When was the last time you really asked Him though? When was the last time you really prayed?
I mean I don’t know you at all. And I really want you to know that I’m not mad about your questions. I know the tone of writing is hard to figure. It’s a hard way to talk about stuff like this without knowing. But I’ve read your posts before. You’re a pretty balanced person. Pretty reasonable. Kind of fair. So I’m not at war with you on this. I’m actually just glad to have someone to talk to. So I’m sort of drawing this out for that. I hope you don’t mind. I just have no one else to talk to right now. And you’re up for this game.
Peace DG.
-Trident
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Trident_H
Guest
I’m not talking to everyone. Just you. (Would it be overdone to use the finger waving guy again?
)Jesus didn’t send you as a messenger to me. He’s probably the one who trapped you in that steam room though. Are you sure you don’t want me to call someone about that? Maybe get you some air? Or something?
Peace DG.
-Trident
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Faith1960
Guest
Could we stop the sniping you two, and get back on topic? Anyone else like to add their two cents?I’m not talking to everyone. Just you. (Would it be overdone to use the finger waving guy again?
Jesus didn’t send you as a messenger to me. He’s probably the one who trapped you in that steam room though. Are you sure you don’t want me to call someone about that? Maybe get you some air? Or something?
Peace DG.
-Trident
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Faith1960
Guest
Is that the answer? I spoke to my priest last night for a short while, went to confession and brought this up, but there was a semi-long line for confession so I didn’t want to hold the line up. I emailed him and am still waiting back to hear from him.
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Michael19682
Guest
I don’t know if it is THE answer. But it was mine. We’ll have to wait and hear from your priest when he responds. In the meantime, you might consider or not, “studying” God in your own prayers – I wouldn’t because for me it seems disrespectful to study or test God in any way. Better to study yourself, self study is a good way to learn what God wants for you. Hopefully a person would know to not set ultimatums with God – “If this happens, then I’ll do this or that, or then I’ll know this or that is true, etc.” We grow out of that habit as children.
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Trident_H
Guest
Sorry Faith. I didn’t mean to get carried away. I was just in sort of a good mood and was having a bit of fun. I’ll back out of this. I hope you get your answer.
Peace.
-Trident
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Faith1960
Guest
You don’t need to back out of the thread.Sorry Faith. I didn’t mean to get carried away. I was just in sort of a good mood and was having a bit of fun. I’ll back out of this. I hope you get your answer.
Peace.
-Trident
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Faith1960
Guest
Anyone think that that’s the answer?
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christofirst
Guest
Consider these words from Fr. Laurence Freeman, OSB:
“Prayer is not informing God of our needs or asking God to change his mind. We are not setting up our will in opposition to God’s will or telling God what he should be doing. Such egocentric prayer fosters many forms of neurotic religious behavior, such as praying for victory over others or the fulfilling of our fantasies and egotistical desires.”
Now consider the words of the Catechism, #2734-2735:
“Filial trust is tested - it proves itself - in tribulation. The principal difficulty concerns the prayer of petition, for oneself or for others in intercession. Some even stop praying because they think their petition is not heard. Here two questions should be asked: Why do we think our petition has not been heard? How is our prayer heard, how is it efficacious? In the first place, we ought not be astonished by this fact: when we praise God or give him thanks for his benefits in general, we are not particularly concerned whether or not our prayer is acceptable to him. On the other hand, we demand to see the results of our petitions. What is the image of God that motivates our prayer: an instrument to be used? or the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?” (emphasis mine)
Intercessory prayer is an important part of the Christian life. We depend on God for everything, and we turn to him in time of need. This is good, but there is also more to prayer than just getting what we want, however good and noble we think our desires might be. Using the “results” of intercessory prayer in a test as some sort of proof of God’s care or existence misses the whole point of prayer. Does any of this make sense to you?
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Faith1960
Guest
Yes, except the part from the CCC. Can you dumb it down for me, please?
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Michael19682
Guest
It makes sense enough.
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Faith1960
Guest
Ok, I get it now, but still…if God hears our prayers, shouldn’t the number of those who got well or done well be higher after all that praying going on? I mean, in addition to the intercessors in the study, Aprox. 96% of the patients were being prayed for by others.
Why didn’t more get better? It seems to me the outcome would’ve been the same whether they were prayed for or not. No?
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christofirst
Guest
Should they get better with all that praying? Not necessarily. God hears and answers our prayer in his own way, knowing what is best for us, in ways we cannot always see. As I said before, maybe all of those prayers actually prepared the heart patient for a holy death. Isn’t being received into Heaven ultimately more important than a few more years on earth?
When we pray intercessory prayers, we should always make our request with the provision that it be in accord with God’s Will. God knows what is best for us, and that is what the Catechism meant by filial trust - complete trust, like a child. We have to trust that God will provide what we most truly need, even if it means not surviving a medical procedure. The fact that a heart patient lives or dies with or without prayer does not really prove anything about God. I would say the premise of that test was flawed from the start.
This should not discourage us from praying for ourselves and others, however. Our Lord and the Church instructs us to pray and to ask for what we need, even though God already knows, and no prayer is ever wasted.
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Faith1960
Guest
Most of the patients prayed for didn’t die, they just didn’t get any better than those who weren’t prayed for.
- Status