Why Satan must exist

[MarianD]

I posted this on another website, but I figured I might as well post it here too

In order for there to be a good guy, there has to be a bad guy.

Let’s take the story of Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve had a good relationship with God. Satan comes along, tempts them, and they sin by disobeying God.

God then gives a prophecy through the writer of this part of Genesis:

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.” - Genesis 3:15

So because Satan caused Adam and Eve to sin, he will then be part of a constant struggle with “The woman” (the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God) and with her “offspring” (Jesus Christ). He (Jesus) will strike at the serpent’s head, and the serpent will strike at His heel. This means that Jesus will destroy evil while Satan can only scratch the surface of good.

So now we learn some things here:

#1: The struggle of Mary and Jesus vs. Satan is part of God’s Plan and is a constant struggle. So for this reason, Satan won’t be killed because it’s part of God’s Plan that he is in a struggle with God’s Church

#2: As a result of Satan’s causing Adam and Eve to sin, God needed to redeem the world of the sin of our ancestors. His way of doing this was the send His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for us, “For God so loved the world” (John 3:16)

#3: Since God sent Jesus, His only Son, it showed how much He loves us and it inspires us to love Him.

And Jesus has a part in this Divine Love too.
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command - John 15:13-14

Jesus laid down his life for us, and He calls us His friends. So He’s basically telling us "I am showing you that I have the greatest love for you, my creation. It’s a love so great that He suffers lashings and crucifixion to express it.

So we can see that God the Father and God the Son (Jesus) love the world so much, and that our only source of hope is in God’s Love. This Love was revealed only through God’s plan for our redemption. God’s plan for our redemption was only revealed through the sin of Adam and Eve. The sin of Adam and Eve was only done because of Satan’s existence.

So through Satan’s existence, God has shown us the only way we can truly be happy. And this is why Satan must continue to exist, so that God can set us free and make us happy.

 

[neophyte]

…In order for there to be a good guy, there has to be a bad guy…

That’s like saying “in order for there to be health, there must be disease”.

 

[coolduude]

That’s like saying “in order for there to be health, there must be disease”.

This is true though. For without disease, there would be no health as we know it because there would be nothing negative to compare it to. Everyone would just be. They would not be good nor bad (health wise). They would just be. With disease they can be bad, so when they are not sick we can say they are “in good health”. There is a standard. See what I mean?

The same must go for good and evil then, eh?

 

[MarianD]

That’s like saying “in order for there to be health, there must be disease”.

That was a simplification of the point I made in what I quoted. But this is still true. “Health”, by definition, is the freedom from disease. So while health is the original state of the body, it isn’t a distinct state unless sickness exists.

So if there was no Satan, there would have been no sin. Had there been no sin, then we wouldn’t know what hope (the experiencing of God’s Love) is because it wouldn’t be any different than what we already experience. We would then never appreciate God’s Love fully, because we would never have lacked it. “You don’t miss the water in the well until it’s gone”

 

[Mojoforyeshua]

Satan was not created as an evil being, he was created as the most wonderful angel in heaven and he along with all the angels was asked to make a choice. That choice was that they would have to bow down to a Human Jesus and worship Him as God. Many of the angels obeyed God and did so. However, Satan (then called Lucifer) did not do this and could not see past their own pride to worship and obey a human as angels are superior creatures to us and they wanted their dignity. Satan, rebelling against God and wanting to put himself in the place of God was then kicked out of heaven with his sin of pride and that is what he taught the human race. Satan exists because he was a being made with intellect and will. He was given his free will to choose between God and himself because he was given the identity of self and whenever you have a “self” you have the possibility of putting yourself first.

I also think this is coming up because of a misconception about the relationship between good and evil. Good does not rely on evil for its existence, whereas evil relies entirely on good for its existence. It is akin to a hole in a garbage bag, the hole would not exist if the garbage bag did not but the bag can exist without the hole. Evil does not exist on its own.

I find this to be true in almost all forms of evil, that I can think of. Hitler started his conquest because he wanted success and peace for humanity. Now success and peace are wonderful things but his actions were evil. A sociopath rapes and kills his victims more often than not to achieve a sexual or emotional release because he cannot function normally in either aspect. Again, sex and emotions are good things but rape and murder are clearly evil. It appears to me that evil actions are wholly dependent on an end that is meant to be good.

Evil itself again, cannot exist on its own accord. Look at some of the major evils; Murder, lying, rape, adultery, starvation and death. All of these are really perversions or corruptions of something good. Murder and death- Life, Rape and adultery-sex in its proper context. Evil is the absence, neglect or perversion of something good.

Sorry this is so short but I’m getting up for mass in the morning . yay mass!:clapping: :heaven:

 

[streetpreacher]

This is true though. For without disease, there would be no health as we know it because there would be nothing negative to compare it to. Everyone would just be. They would not be good nor bad (health wise). They would just be. With disease they can be bad, so when they are not sick we can say they are “in good health”. There is a standard. See what I mean?

The same must go for good and evil then, eh?

Good point along your analogy, but understand, the two are apples and oranges. Evil’s remedy is not good, it’s elimination, “good stands on it’s own merit without requiring anything to counter it”.

 

[MarianD]

You guys are missing my point. Read what’s in the quote box. Skip over my first couple of words in the OP.

I’m arguing not for why Satan was created, but rather why God didn’t and still doesn’t just kill him off and end temptations and sin. God uses Satan for His Plan to expose the amount of Love He has for the world. This Love would not have been known to be as intense as it is without the fall of man, and the fall of man would never have happened if God just killed Satan off when he sinned.

 

[neophyte]

That was a simplification of the point I made in what I quoted. But this is still true. “Health”, by definition, is the freedom from disease. So while health is the original state of the body, it isn’t a distinct state unless sickness exists.

Even if I grant that your definition of health is a good one (which I don’t), your conclusion doesn’t follow it. One is certainly free from disease if disease does not exist.

 

[Daegus]

In order for there to be a good guy, there has to be a bad guy.

God is a good guy and Satan doesn’t need to exist for God to exist.

 

[fhansen]

That was a simplification of the point I made in what I quoted. But this is still true. “Health”, by definition, is the freedom from disease. So while health is the original state of the body, it isn’t a distinct state unless sickness exists.

So if there was no Satan, there would have been no sin. Had there been no sin, then we wouldn’t know what hope (the experiencing of God’s Love) is because it wouldn’t be any different than what we already experience. We would then never appreciate God’s Love fully, because we would never have lacked it. “You don’t miss the water in the well until it’s gone”

It seems apparent that man had to come to know (experience) good and evil in order to learn the wisdom of choosing the good-in order to ultimately become one in will with God. I don’t know if that’s the only way it could work but that seems to be the way it works here- we’re all like Prodigals needing to learn of our need for the Father.

**Even though you meant harm to me, God meant it for good, to achieve his present end, the survival of many people.**Gen 50:20

 

[MarianD]

You guys are completely skipping over my point. The whole “good guy bad guy” thing isn’t even a part of my argument. Ignore it. It’s like a group of Bishops arguing over whether apples or oranges are better during an Ecumenical Council. It’s not the important part of the discussion.

My actual point is summed up in St. Augustine’s Felix Culpa: “Oh happy fault which gained for us so great a Redeemer.” It’s also summed up in what St. Thomas Aquinas said: “God allows evils to happen in order to bring about a greater good.”

So the point isn’t the good guy vs. bad guy thing. Ignore it.

 

[neophyte]

You guys are completely skipping over my point. The whole “good guy bad guy” thing isn’t even a part of my argument. Ignore it. It’s like a group of Bishops arguing over whether apples or oranges are better during an Ecumenical Council. It’s not the important part of the discussion.

My actual point is summed up in St. Augustine’s Felix Culpa: “Oh happy fault which gained for us so great a Redeemer.” It’s also summed up in what St. Thomas Aquinas said: “God allows evils to happen in order to bring about a greater good.”

So the point isn’t the good guy vs. bad guy thing. Ignore it.

You said that the good guy (God) can’t exist without the bad guy (Satan), and then used the story of the fall to illustrate why you think that. We can be forgiven for thinking that that was your point.

As for what you now identify as your actual point, it seems to me that you’re attempting to use human reason to come to a firm conclusion on something that is determinable only through divine revelation.

 

[MarianD]

As for what you now identify as your actual point, it seems to me that you’re attempting to use human reason to come to a firm conclusion on something that is determinable only through divine revelation.

Is Divine Revelation necessary for a human to use reason and see that God has given us a glimpse of how loving He is as an ultimate result of Satan’s temptation of Eve?

 

[neophyte]

Is Divine Revelation necessary for a human to use reason and see that God has given us a glimpse of how loving He is as an ultimate result of Satan’s temptation of Eve?

You’re changing your claim again; what you actually concluded is that “this is why Satan must continue to exist, so that God can set us free and make us happy”. Human reason is not suficient to definitively arrive at that conclusion, and there’s a huge gap between it and the reasoning you offer in support.

God can set us free and make us happy quite well without Satan existing, and if he vanished out of existance right now mankind would continue to sin until the end of this world. It’s fallacious to conclude that Satan must exist from the fact that he does exist.

 

[streetpreacher]

Remember the paraplegic that was healed, the blind that was given sight, and how Jesus mentions, it is to reveal God’s glory so that others will believe. Wipe the devil off of face of existance, sure, and this includes wiping off anybody that he’s pulled into his depths that can and do come to Christ in the end, but that will not happen if their time is cut short.

The battle goes both ways, such as, would it be right to have someone next to you in heaven, unworthily there, only because they have never had the free will to chose Good or evil? Would it be right on the same account to have someone cast into hell, yet had the capacity for redemption if their lives were not cut short., The two would exchange places for eternity, bottom line, and the time of man is finite, quite doubtful was ever meant for mankind to be an eternal race, in this corporal form. It’s important to keep the prodigal son’s story alive in this case, our human judgment would have cast the son into oblivion the moment he left home with his inheritance, but God deemed for him to not be cast away, giving him the chance to turn back.

To simplify this, it’s separating the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

MarianD

This Love would not have been known to be as intense as it is without the fall of man, and the fall of man would never have happened if God just killed Satan off when he sinned.

Now another question comes into play. If man could not have sinned without Satan, how is it that Satan came to sin without another Satan to tempt him? So if Satan revolted on his own, couldn’t Adam and Eve have revolted even without Satan to tempt them?

 

[Jimzz12]

I am a new comer to philosophy, having only read a little of 'Etienne Gilson - The Christian Philosophy of Thomas Aquinas". This is my understanding so far.

In a nutshell, Satan doesn’t have to exist but created existence outside of the Godhead is a neccessity for the variety of creation. Variety is defined by the degree of participation in the Divine Creator.

For instance, a pure intellect such as Michael the Archangel is so perfect a creation with such a minor degree of imperfection (variety) that in order to realise his potency of perfection all he had to do was peform his one act, asking the question, “Who is like God?”

Created things of a lesser degree than say the archangel must perform a greater number still of actions to realise their potency of participation.