Why say "Sola Fide"?

[fhansen]

They are inseparable. Faith is the means by which we are united to Christ and indwelt with the Spirit, and it is the means by which we stay united to Christ, etc. The consequence of this is the that Holy Spirit is at work within us, and the evidence of that sanctifying work is the fruit of the Spirit and love for Christ and for our fellow man.

Of course, we can resist and reject this grace. We can grieve the Holy Spirit. We can fall into unbelief and sin and break fellowship with Christ.

So you could say that while we’re saved by faith alone, a faith that is alone wouldn’t save us? So that the works that are included with faith must be there, not strictly to bear witness to the faith but because the faith would actually be incomplete without them? Or more to the point, perhaps, that faith cannot be alone?

 

[fhansen]

Ok, and this hinges on how any particular sin is defined. The Catholic criteria still holds true:
"Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

The deliberateness of consent, especially, comes into question with any habitual sins. But the principle outlined in the Catholic position is, in simplest terms, the acknowledgment that we can lose our salvation; we can turn back away from God; He does not completely override man’s will.

 

[lanman87]

I don’t know if we can lose our salvation or not. I could argue either way. However, I do think if it is possible it has to be more than “I slept with my girlfriend”. It would have to be more along the lines of “I slept with my girlfriend and I don’t care if it is a sin I"m going to do it anyway and nobody, not even God almighty, is going to make me stop”.

 

[fhansen]

Well, this is one of the issues where Christianity lacks unity, over whether or not one can lose salvation. The ancient churches from day one have maintained that we can. And, as I think I’ve made clear, the Catholic church speaks only of very serious sin, and persistence in it, as being “sin that leads to death”.

The bottom line is that man’s justice or righteousness is defined by how well he loves God and neighbor, not primarily by how much faith he has even. And love excludes sin by its nature, which is why it can be said that “love fulfills the law”. And the more we’ve “seen”; the more that’s been given or revealed to us IOW, the more that is expected of us because the more we should then know and love God such that the Church can actually teach, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.” Faith is meant to lead to this love, as faith is meant to lead us to God and establish communion with He-who-is-love.

God isn’t being a big cosmic meany by obligating man to righteousness/justice/holiness. He wants that for us, rather than for us to just be a bunch of otherwise worthless sinful wretches. And the gift of our faith, the gift of Christ, is a treasure, that we’re expected to “invest” as per the Parable of the Talents. God is merciful beyond our comprehension, but he won’t allow injustice to coexist with evil indefinitely, or else salvation might as well just be universal to begin with. And He’s very, very patient in accomplishing His work.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ianman87 . . . .

If justification means “Declared to be just” or . . . .

Hold it.

You gotta be careful with that.

You seem to be using this as . . . .

justification means “MERELY declared to be just”

.

You also asked . . .

at what point is this declaration made?

At the beginning of being born again or re-birthed from above or being born of water and the Spirit.

This is the “gateway” or entrance ramp to the Christian life. The Holy Spirit poured into us.

 

[lanman87]

You seem to be using this as . . . .

justification means “MERELY declared to be just”

No, Justification isn’t merely being declared just. It is the moment one becomes a Child of God which leads us to a new life in Christ. If you’ve ever been to a Baptist baptism you will see the pastor say something like “Buried with Christ in Baptism and raised to walk in newness of life”.

 

[fhansen]

And yet many within Protestantism maintain that imputed righteousness means no change in us towards righteousness. God only sees Christ’s righteousness in the stead of our unrighteousness. While it seems to me that being a new creation means that God has filled us in some sense with His grace and justice.

 

[lanman87]

And yet many within Protestantism maintain that imputed righteousness means no change in us towards righteousness.

Well, I have a long history within American Evangelical churches (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Assembly of God) and have yet to run into any who teach the imputed righteousness of Christ doesn’t result in a move toward personal righteousness in how we live our lives. Instead, I’ve heard over and over that we are to examine ourselves and that if we aren’t at least struggling with our sin and moving toward personal righteousness then we need examine ourselves to see if we have really been “saved” or “Born again” and are “of the faith”. Any claim of faith without resulting sanctification is a false claim of faith. Any true claim of faith in Christ will result in a radical change in our life from that point forward.

One the things I see over an over again on this board is folks saying that Baptist (or similar groups) say “all you have to do is say the sinners prayer and then you can go live however you want and you will still be saved”. That totally ignores the calls to godly living and holiness that is preached over and over again in Baptist churches every week, the calls for those who haven’t placed faith in Christ to do so, and the calls for those that have professed faith in Christ to repent of sin and live a life completely surrendered to Christ.

 

[fhansen]

And this leads me to believe then that some or most Protestants don’t believe that the righteousness of Christ is merely imputed to a believer for their justification.

I don’t know how many people I’ve debated who maintain that the concept of infused righteousness amounts to an insult to Christ and the work he’s done for us. Man, so they say, cannot have any righteousness of his own and he’s not required to. Catholics counter that God does, indeed, impart righteousness or justice to man as part of our new union with Him, and that man can still determine to express or fail to express that righteousness by the use of his free will. The more he opts to express it, the stronger it grows. The more he fails to express it the greater is his salvation in question.

 

[lanman87]

You have to remember that for Protestants/Evangelicals several things happen at the moment of conversion.

• Our sins are forgiven
• We enter into a personal and direct relationship with God through Jesus
• We move from spiritual death to spiritual life as the Holy Spirit indwells us.
• Our unrighteousness is exchanged for Christ righteousness to where when God looks at us He sees Christ instead of our sinfulness. Christ becomes our righteousness.
• The Holy Spirit starts the sanctification process where our hearts are changed to that of an enemy (or ambivalence) of God to a heart that seeks the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. This is, of course, why we believe so strongly in Missions and Evangelical work. Go doesn’t just save us, He also calls us to serve and work for His Kingdom. This is also why we teach an ongoing repentance of sins. We are encouraging and exhorting those who profess Faith in Christ to strengthen and grow their faith and live a life worthy of their calling in Christ.

 

[fhansen]

I see. And for the purpose of justification this seems to amount to forgiveness of and cleansing of sin and then maybe, but not necessarily, the personal righteousness that comes from sanctification. Will man be judged on his personal righteousness, wrought by God, or on the reflection of it anyway, on his righteous deeds as per Matt 25?

 

[lanman87]

It depends on their status. Those who are “In Christ” whose names have not been blotted out of the book of Life in Revelation 20 are not judged according to their works and thrown into the Lake of Fire. Many scholars think that the book of life is a heavenly record of all of the names of all of humankind and the other books are the records of our works. But that when a person dies without knowing Christ his name is blotted out or removed from the book of life and if your name is not in the book of Life then you are judged according to your works and thrown into the lake of fire. A Calvinist would say the book of life is the names of the elect. Those chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be His people.

The judgement in Matthew 25 is not the final judgement of all mankind. It is the judgement of the nations or a special judgement of the people on the earth at the time of Christ second coming and will take place on the earth. At least according to verse 31

There is also a judgement of believers according to their works. But it is not a judgement of saved or lost, it is a judgement of what you did with the gifts you were given and we each will be rewarded on how faithful we carried out our calling in Christ. It is interesting that one the scriptures used by Catholics to defend purgatory is used by Evangelicals to describe the “Bema Seat” judgement of believers in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. What Catholics see as Purgatory, Evangelicals see as a time of judgement for the works of those “In Christ” and for the believer to be awarded a reward (or not) based on their works.

 

[fhansen]

Again, for Catholics judgment will be based on our love, which is reflected by what we actually do. The whole idea of rewards, at least as it relates to many of these passages, comes across as a bit of a contrivance to ensure disassociation of any works or personal righteousness from justification and salvation.

And as far as the Book of Life is concerned it’s God’s province, alone, to know whose names are in it and whose are not, who are numbered among the elect and who are not.

 

[lanman87]

Again, for Catholics judgment will be based on our love, which is reflected by what we actually do. The whole idea of rewards, at least as it relates to many of these passages, comes across as a bit of a contrivance to ensure disassociation of any works or personal righteousness from justification and salvation.

Or maybe the Evangelicals are correct and Christians are judged differently than non-Christians.

 

[fhansen]

Doubt it. Can’t be. I think we’ll be judged by the Law as per Rom 2, which is itself based on love, on the Law of Love anyway as the church puts it. And to the extent that we love, we’re just. Something that the Law, itself, cannot accomplish in us.

 

[lanman87]

Doubt it. Can’t be. I think we’ll be judged by the Law as per Rom 2, which is itself based on love, on the Law of Love anyway as the church puts it. And to the extent that we love, we’re just. Something that the Law, itself, cannot accomplish in us.

I think that if someone is truly “In Christ” then there works will follow and their faith and works will be in harmony. So if the Evangelicals are right then all’s good and if the Catholics are right then all’s good.

 

[fhansen]

But, but…how are we possibly going to argue then???

 

[Dougbro1]

But, but…how are we possibly going to argue then???

Lol. (10 char.)

 

[SyCarl]

I think you will find that many Protestants would classify the change in us as regeneration. Regeneration gives us a new spirit and heart and the ability to want to be righteous and the ability to pursue that desire. The pursuit of becoming righteous is sanctification which is a lifelong process that is not complete until death with glorification. Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to us because our own righteousness will never be perfect in this life and God’s standard is perfection.

 

[Cathoholic]

Cathoholic to Ianman87 . . . .

You seem to be using this as . . . .

justification means “MERELY declared to be just”

Ianman87 . . .

No, Justification isn’t merely being declared just. It is the moment one becomes a Child of God which leads us to a new life in Christ. If you’ve ever been to a Baptist baptism you will see the pastor say something like “Buried with Christ in Baptism and raised to walk in newness of life”.

OK. We are “Buried with Christ in Baptism and raised to walk in newness of life”.

That is implicitly from Romans 6:3-5. I have no issue with that.

You also said . . . .

Justification isn’t merely being declared just.

This is correct also (although I doubt my old Baptist Preacher where I grew up would affirm this).

Justification is a moment of God’s declaration, but since it is God doing the declaring, and God’s declaration accomplishes what it purposes . . .

. . . We are transformed in Christ.

And since we are transformed, we CAN now merit WITH Christ.

And not only can we . . . . We MUST merit with Him (according to our state in life).

And this is an ongoing lifelong PROCESS (not a mere moment ALONE).