Why separate the Church and Jesus?

[JustinApologist]

I guess I can never understand it. Catholics believe that you cannot separate the Church and Jesus.

1. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and Jesus is the Head.
2. The Church is the Bride of Christ. The Two are One Flesh since Jesus died for his Church.

I don’t know if Protestant believe these as well, but they always seen to separate the two as if they are divorce.

If the Protestant do say they are separated, then why did the Reformers separated from Holy See? Do they realized that the Church they are breaking from is the same Church Jesus Christ founded 2,000 yrs ago?

Here is a short history of Christianity:

1. About 30 AD Jesus build His Church upon Peter (Matthew 16:18).

((around 110 AD, St. Ignatius called Christ’s Church Catholic Church).

1. Catholic Church born on Pentecost about the same year.
2. 1054 AD Western Christian and Eastern Christian split in the first Schism (Divorce).
3. 1517 AD. Church Reformers break from the Catholic Church, and on the bases on Scripture Alone and Faith Alone, new doctrines.

In between, I believe some of the Eastern Christianity reunited with Rome forming the Byzantine Rite Catholic… though there had been already Byzantine Catholic who did not break with Rome.

Under what authority do these men want to break Church? I think sin is deeply involve with the Schism and heresy of Protestantism.

The historical Church is Catholic, and she is the Only Church that remain faithful.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

What’s wrong with loving the Church? Scripture says that the Church is His Body, and I don’t know about you, but that sounds like something worth loving!

Col. 1:18 (DRB) - And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy:

US protestants are more inclined to seek HIS face not HIS hands and feet, afterall aren’t we all HIS hands and feet in a sense, why seek God through man??
1 Chronicles 16:11
Look to the LORD and his strength; seek his face always.
Psalm 27:8
My heart says of you, “Seek his face!” Your face, LORD, I will seek.

Psalm 105:4
Look to the LORD and his strength; seek his face always.

 

[mdcpensive1]

US protestants are more inclined to seek HIS face not HIS hands and feet, afterall aren’t we all HIS hands and feet in a sense, why seek God through man??
Look to the LORD and his strength; seek his face always.

Please state which “man” you are talking about. The Catholic Church teaches that the Man, Jesus Christ is the one who will give over the Church to the Father at the end of time. His Church does have a heirarchy as the Chosen People had during the Old Covenant. They had the Sanheedren and a High Priest.

Christ said He would not leave us orphans. He left us a guiding body, protected by His Spirit in doctrinal truth to teach us what He wants us to know about Him to properly lead us home.

There is great comfort in knowing this and that there is objective truth we can depend on.

mdcpensive1

 

[PC_Master]

I guess I can never understand it. Catholics believe that you cannot separate the Church and Jesus.

1. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and Jesus is the Head.
2. The Church is the Bride of Christ. The Two are One Flesh since Jesus died for his Church.

The problem is you don’t understand that Protestants do love God’s church, or at least, what we believe is God’s church. However, Protestants typically believe that the church is simply the universal congregation of all believers in Jesus as savior of mankind. You’re talking about us separating Jesus from the church, in reference to the Catholic Church, as if Protestants all know and agree that the Catholic Church is really the one true church. This, obviously, isn’t the case. Each group, at least for those who are “devout”, loves “the church” as they see it.

If the Protestant do say they are separated, then why did the Reformers separated from Holy See? Do they realized that the Church they are breaking from is the same Church Jesus Christ founded 2,000 yrs ago?

That’s just it – we don’t agree with that, and neither did the reformers, or the schismatics, etc. It’s a difference of opinion, with each side purporting their views as the absolute truth.

1. About 30 AD Jesus build His Church upon Peter (Matthew 16:18).

No – Jesus said he would (as in, future tense) build his church (called out ones, congregation, not “Church”), on Peter’s confession of faith (attested by “early church fathers” and the scriptures themselves).

((around 110 AD, St. Ignatius called Christ’s Church Catholic Church).

As the term Catholic simply means “universal”, that’s not very definitive. I strongly believe in the universal church as comprised by all believers in the teachings of Christ. However, I do not use the word Catholic, because of the way the Roman Catholic Church has misused it, for fear that people would confuse me with such a group.

1. Catholic Church born on Pentecost about the same year.

The first “house churches” were established right after Pentacost.

1. 1054 AD Western Christian and Eastern Christian split in the first Schism (Divorce).

There were many churches that split from the Roman Catholics before then, and some who even claim to never have been a part of it.

1. 1517 AD. Church Reformers break from the Catholic Church, and on the bases on Scripture Alone and Faith Alone, new doctrines.

There were specific Roman traditions that were unscriptural which were cited in many instances of breaking from the Roman Church.

Under what authority do these men want to break Church? I think sin is deeply involve with the Schism and heresy of Protestantism.

If Matthew 16 doesn’t support the papacy (I’m studying this, but check out the thread I already started on the topic), then I’d ask on what authority the Catholic Church purports itself any power to bind anyone to any belief.

The historical Church is Catholic, and she is the Only Church that remain faithful.

No. Simply, no. Any claimant of this simply hasn’t studied their history, except perhaps from biased pro-Catholic sources.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

I guess I can never understand it. Catholics believe that you cannot separate the Church and Jesus.

[snip]

…Under what authority do these men want to break Church? I think sin is deeply involve with the Schism and heresy of Protestantism.

The historical Church is Catholic, and she is the Only Church that remain faithful.

I’ll try again: everything you say above may indeed be correct. However, if you are genuinely unable to understand how a reasonable man might (for the sake of argument, we’ll say mistakenly) subscribe to Protestant notions of the Church and its relation to Christ, this argues a certain failure of imagination that will keep your original question forever unanswered to your satisfaction. In fact, I get a growing impression that your initial “question” wasn’t really meant as a question–hope I’m wrong about that.

 

[st_lucy]

The problem is you don’t understand that Protestants do love God’s church, or at least, what we believe is God’s church. However, Protestants typically believe that the church is simply the universal congregation of all believers in Jesus as savior of mankind. You’re talking about us separating Jesus from the church, in reference to the Catholic Church, as if Protestants all know and agree that the Catholic Church is really the one true church. This, obviously, isn’t the case. Each group, at least for those who are “devout”, loves “the church” as they see it.

I don’t think (or at least very few) Catholics believe that Protestants don’t love Jesus Church. BUT the thing is some protestants don’t bother to study What THEIR church is. For instantance: Who is the head the key holder of your church? Who do you go to settle debates or to correct error? Who holds the truth?

You see in all of these questions you really don’t have ONE person in charge. So what happens when one FEELS the Holy Spirit is guiding them to one place while the SAME Holy Spirit is guiding another somewhere else. We know from scripture that the Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself. So instead of actually finding the truth (since there really isn’t anyone to ask) that person will break from THEIR church to start another church. The Creed states (I am using the creed because I believe that all Christians follow it. If I am wrong please forgive me) I believe in ONE Holy catholic church. See that ONE not two, five or 33,000 just one who follow one set of laws that were set forth by the apostles, who were lead by one person who held the keys.

Any way That is all I will post. I have a real hard time debating with those who choose to argue with God and than try to call themselves Christians, I than tend to push all of my own Christian values aside to try and prove them wrong. I instead will read along and pray for those who think they know better than Jesus.

 

[JustinApologist]

The problem is you don’t understand that Protestants do love God’s church, or at least, what we believe is God’s church. However, Protestants typically believe that the church is simply the universal congregation of all believers in Jesus as savior of mankind. You’re talking about us separating Jesus from the church, in reference to the Catholic Church, as if Protestants all know and agree that the Catholic Church is really the one true church. This, obviously, isn’t the case. Each group, at least for those who are “devout”, loves “the church” as they see it.

The Catholic Church is One Church founded by Jesus. There weren’t any Protestants in those days until 1517

That’s just it – we don’t agree with that, and neither did the reformers, or the schismatics, etc. It’s a difference of opinion, with each side purporting their views as the absolute truth.

Non-Catholic Christians as a whole only contain the parts of the Truth. They are not the fullness of Truth. Only the Catholic Church is the Only Church established by Jesus. If you study the Early Church Fathers, you would see many of their beliefs are very Catholic.

No – Jesus said he would (as in, future tense) build his church (called out ones, congregation, not “Church”), on Peter’s confession of faith (attested by “early church fathers” and the scriptures themselves).

Matthew 16:18 is not only the confession of faith. That pasage clearly state in Jesus own lips, “You are Peter and Upon this Rock I will Built My Church.” There is No faith there. Just Built My Church.

As the term Catholic simply means “universal”, that’s not very definitive. I strongly believe in the universal church as comprised by all believers in the teachings of Christ. However, I do not use the word Catholic, because of the way the Roman Catholic Church has misused it, for fear that people would confuse me with such a group.

Well, many of us Traditional Catholic prefer calling the Roman Catholic Church as Catholic Church. To say it is Roman Catholic Church would negate the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches. They aren’t Latin (aka Roman). The Byzantine Rite are in union with the Pope in Rome.

In the words of St. Ignatius of Antioch.

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

 

[JustinApologist]

((continue from the other since my reply was long)

The first “house churches” were established right after Pentacost.

Not only did they establish house churches. In fact the early Christians gather in the synagogue for Scripture reading, and Breading of the Bread in the houses.

During the persecution it maybe limited to the house only. After Emperor Constantine made his Eddict of Milan, Christians were free to worship in public. Many of the wealthy Christians donated their estate for the new Christian Church.

There were many churches that split from the Roman Catholics before then, and some who even claim to never have been a part of it.

Yes, the Arianists, the Nectorianism, and many other heretics who challenge the divinity of Jesus Christ. The schism between in the East and West Christian occur in 1054 AD. This split was do to political forces and cultural differences than doctrinal. From this split came the Eastern Orthodox Church based in Constantinople. In the later years, Russian Orthodox split from Constantinople, and many other Orthodox Churches became more like regional Churches ruled by the Patriarch of that region.

Some of these Eastern Orthodox Churches 500 after the East-West Schism reunited with Rome and became part of the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches.

There were specific Roman traditions that were unscriptural which were cited in many instances of breaking from the Roman Church.

Many of the Catholic Tradition are Scriptural. Consider looking at scripturecatholic.com and download biblechristiansociety.com.

If Matthew 16 doesn’t support the papacy (I’m studying this, but check out the thread I already started on the topic), then I’d ask on what authority the Catholic Church purports itself any power to bind anyone to any belief.

Well it is does support the Papacy. For one why did Jesus rename Simon to Peter? It is very clear that Jesus gave Peter the keys of the Kingdom of heaven, and Jesus further states, “whatever you bind on earth shall be bind in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth shall be loose in heaven.”

No. Simply, no. Any claimant of this simply hasn’t studied their history, except perhaps from biased pro-Catholic sources.

Protestantism proves nothing that it is only man-made tradition. It’s doctrine are more Unscripture than the other two branches of Christianity, Orthodox and Catholic.

There are over 33,000 Protestant denominations which claim to be the Truth Church of Christ yet their doctrine differ. Sounds like the Holy Spirit is giving them different messages.

I hardly think He would change his mind, God is in immutable. Protestantism itself isn’t when it comes to teaching moral and faith. Catholic teachings on moral and faith remains consistent.

 

[JustinApologist]

I’ll try again: everything you say above may indeed be correct. However, if you are genuinely unable to understand how a reasonable man might (for the sake of argument, we’ll say mistakenly) subscribe to Protestant notions of the Church and its relation to Christ, this argues a certain failure of imagination that will keep your original question forever unanswered to your satisfaction. In fact, I get a growing impression that your initial “question” wasn’t really meant as a question–hope I’m wrong about that.

The only question I have to ask, under what authority gave the Reformers the right to split from Rome and make their own Churches?

In modern Protestants, if a member of a congregation disagrees with the pastors, he can free to leave and make his own church.

The last time I check Jesus said that, if there is a disagreement amongst you, you bring it to your brother, if he doesn’t listen, take it to the Church. Still, he disgrees so he makes his own Church.

No wonder Protestantism just continue to divide itself. We see this in the Anglican community who are fighting over gay ordination… the American wants it, and more conservative Anglicans don’t… The issue is on going…

 

[edwest2]

All the Popes are spiritual descendants of Peter. That’s why they call that building St. Peter’s Bascillica.

All those who follow Christ and have a personal relationship with Him are Christians. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict did and are doing what they can to bring about a spirit of reconciliation and understanding between Christians of different denominations. However, don’t be confused, unless a person dies as a baptized baby, you must enter into a personal relationship with Christ by admitting you are a sinner, asking Him to come into your life and following Him as you Lord and your friend (he called his disciples friends). That’s it. Unless you tell me you’re a Protestant when I meet you, I’m not going to treat you different than anyone else.

The whole Church teaching about Protestants and Catholics was established by the Church and concerns matters guided by the Holy Spirit. As a Catholic, I am bound by the Catholic Church’s authority just as you are bound by yours. Without acknowledging Jesus Christ as I’ve described above and baptism with the Holy Spirit, a person is not a Christian.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Le_Cracquere]

The only question I have to ask, under what authority gave the Reformers the right to split from Rome and make their own Churches?

In modern Protestants, if a member of a congregation disagrees with the pastors, he can free to leave and make his own church.

The last time I check Jesus said that, if there is a disagreement amongst you, you bring it to your brother, if he doesn’t listen, take it to the Church. Still, he disgrees so he makes his own Church.

No wonder Protestantism just continue to divide itself. We see this in the Anglican community who are fighting over gay ordination… the American wants it, and more conservative Anglicans don’t… The issue is on going…

A compelling response. However, I’ll be dipped if I know what it was intended as a response to–so far from addressing my earlier post which you quote, you abundantly confirm the suspicions I voiced therein. What can I say? I apologize for having mistaken your desire to lecture Protestants for actual curiosity about them. Carry on.