Why should a Pagan become Catholic.

[cheese_sdc]

OK, but this begs the question, if the practicing Pagan can already take part in these rituals, than why become Catholic?

A neo-pagan can’t technically participate in the Mass. I was trying to list some of the ritual elements that are present in the Catholic Mass that would be familiar to a neo-pagan.

And hello! I’ve been attending services at our local UU church for a couple of years now.

 

[mflorence]

That is actually a pretty good working definition. The only monotheistic religions are the Abrahamic religions, all else would, by default be pagan. So the issue is more so what kind of paganism the OP is.

Hinduism is monotheistic. It will appear otherwise until you become one, and it takes years of study comprehend. What you believe fits into what they believe, which is why they hardly ever convert to other religions, nor do they usually try to convert others to theirs. You could send every missionary on the planet to India and you would see very few converts. They would take your statue of Jesus into their home and put it next to their statue of Krishna or Ram and bless it. Then they would feed you, bless you and send you on your way. After you were gone, they might do mantra to Jesus on the funny-looking japa mala beads you left them, and think how nice it was of Krishna to visit the Palestinians in His Jesus permutation.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

As Catholic I can give the pagen the only answer I have. It happens to be the same asnswer I would give to a person that is Atheist, Protestant, Jewish, Muslum, Hindu, buddist, or what ever. There is only one Truth and Catholism is were that is found. If I did not believe this to be true I would pick a path much easier that being Cathoic to strive to live.

 

[kenofken]

Why would a pagan want to become Catholic? You’ve drawn up an interesting exercise, Cyberwolfe. Why indeed? It depends on what sort of Catholic you propose we become. If we could become bishops and cardinals, the inducements are obvious. Access to billions of tax-free revenue and de-facto immunity from civil and criminal laws in most countries.

Now, if you’re proposing we become workaday kneel in the pews Catholics, the cost-benefit equation becomes somewhat more complex. Take the incense question for example. Church incense is usually bulk frankincense/myrhh crystals. A bit cloying, perhaps, but solid, midlle of the road ritual incense. A big step up from the unwashed hippy smell of nag champa and cat urine which usually wafts through bargain basement pagan home temples. On the other hand, a solid step down from the Japanese aloewood and sandalwood I prefer.

One potential selling point for Catholicism is that that they set a damn fine pagan altar themselves. With the partial exception of the Lord’s Supper/communion ritual of the Mass, ALL that they do is old-time pagan with a coat of gold spray paint over it. Some years I get conscripted to go to a Christmas Mass with visiting in-laws, and they had set a fine solstice altar weighed down with evergreen branches etc.

Why else jump the fence? Hard to say. I DID get a decent education from the Catholics. Ironically, I owe them the critical thinking skills that enabled me to defect from the church and take my own journey. Carmelites and Jesuits in pariticular are good educators. As an altar boy I learned the ebb and flow of ritual and experienced a calling to priesthood, which I ultimately followed in a very different vein.

Let’s face it. Catholics have some smokin hot women in their ranks. Some of my own lovers are Catholics, though not devout, as you might expect. The Catholic sense of taboo does add a twist to things that you can’t get from your average free-love pagan girl.

In all seriousness, the only reason someone should consider converting to or from anything is if a well-informed conscience directs them to do so. Too many are done in all directions out of simple rebellion or fear or manipulation from others.

 

[tomarin]

So what reasons would a Neo-Pagan need to be Catholic.

I’d answer your question by saying that Christianity is the religion in which God shows his face to man; he makes a bridge through the Incarnation and in so doing shows his great love for us and his desire for us to have eternal union with him.

I’m not sure what paganism is but I think it has to do with nature worship. In paganism therefore you worship God’s creation; in Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions) we worship God. Therefore Christianity is superior to paganism.

Now if a pagan accepted what I wrote above the next task would be to convince her that Catholic Christianity is superior to the other two branches; but that couldn’t be achieved if she didn’t first accept Christianity as superior to paganism.

 

[SedesDomi]

If the Pagan is happy with his or her understanding of his faith’s teachings and its outcomes (trinitarians can insert the word “salvation” or “regeneration” in place of outcomes if they wish), then what could Catholicism offer they don’t already have?

I don’t think the OP is referring to “happy Pagans”, but a Pagan who might be interested in becoming Catholic.

What Catholicism has, that many Paganisms don’t have, is a centuries-old continuous lineage. Sure, many Pagans may claim that Gardner was initiated into a Pagan lineage stretching back to pre-Christian times, but that claim is, to put it mildly, debatable. So, if you’re looking for an ancient, continuous priestly lineage going back not only to Jesus and the Jews, but through Melchizedek and prehistoric Afro-Asiatic culture, then Catholicism is a good choice. (Alternatively, some Pagans may have initiation into ancient Indic lineages – Hindu, Buddhist, or Jain – but we’re talking Catholic lineage here.)

 

[kenofken]

I don’t think the OP is referring to “happy Pagans”, but a Pagan who might be interested in becoming Catholic.

What Catholicism has, that many Paganisms don’t have, is a centuries-old continuous lineage. Sure, many Pagans may claim that Gardner was initiated into a Pagan lineage stretching back to pre-Christian times, but that claim is, to put it mildly, debatable. So, if you’re looking for an ancient, continuous priestly lineage going back not only to Jesus and the Jews, but through Melchizedek and prehistoric Afro-Asiatic culture, then Catholicism is a good choice. (Alternatively, some Pagans may have initiation into ancient Indic lineages – Hindu, Buddhist, or Jain – but we’re talking Catholic lineage here.)

Lineage is a complex topic. It is true that Gardners rebirth of modern paganism is perhaps 60 to 100 years old in terms of its primary influences. On the other hand, it draws on high magick tradition dating back to the high middle ages and some folk traditions older than that. Ultimately we tap into the same sources that our ancestors have been using since well before the birth of the Judeo-Christian world, or even agriculture itself. The fact that the rituals and temples are different does not trouble me in the least. I’m not an Iron Age Celt, so there’s no reason for me to try to emulate everything they did. Nor is Christianity’s ancestry as clean as some suppose. It is a tree with many branches, most of which never led to the modern church. The church of today bears very pale resemblance to the church of the catacombs or 4th Century Syria or even that of the early 20th century.

The other thing which must be understood about paganism is that we are an experiential religion or set of religions, not one based on revelation to a select group of men and filtered by bishops and theologeons. A good ritual which puts us in touch with the gods today is as good as anything performed 2,000 years ago. We know in real time if it’s authentic. If it’s not, no amount of apostolic succession will make it so.

Not that there aren’t good reasons to consider Catholicism, but antiquity probably should not be the main one.

 

[cyberwolf001]

1. Why are you a Pagan? What things about Paganism led you to that religion? Perhaps most importantly, what is it about Paganism that brings you happiness or otherwise wins your devotion?

I am a Pagan due to my belief the gods, spirits and ancestors are real and wish to be our friends. I joined after a very real encounter with said beings.

1. As far as I can tell, Paganism is an extremely broad and diverse religious tradition. What sort of Pagan are you? Are you Wicca? If so, are you Gardnerian, Alexandrian or something else applying British Traditional duotheism? If so, I might be able to toss out a couple of ideas of interest to you.

I am a Polytheistic/Animist and a member of the ADF tradition of Neo-Druidry

Paganism is not false and kindergarten is not false. Judaism is not false and elementary school is not false. Catholicism is not false and middle school is not false. Protestantism is not false and high school is not false. Fortunately for you, this is the 21st Century and higher education is freely available. Try reading Joseph Smith’s King Follett Discourse. Maybe that will cause you to want to find out more.

And BTW, Pagans do not burn.

Murdock

Well not unless we fall into the fire when jumping the flame!

Here are a few reasons:

1. Jesus is Cernunnos-Incarnate, the Lord in human flesh.
2. Mary is the Daughter of the Triple Goddess, Maiden/Mother/Crone in one.
3. The Eucharist is the Body (Masculine Deity) and the Blood (Feminine Deity).
4. A female Mary giving birth to a male Christ? That means Mary is the Mother of God, as Isis is the Mother of Horus. That implies a type of primacy of the Feminine in relationship to the Masculine. Without Mother Earth, there can be no Father Sky.
5. Alternatively, to provide balance, the Catholic tradition also emphasizes the Masculine aspects of God. Well, we all know this, but not all of us know about the possibilities in #4 above.
6. The only way to Jesus, is through Mary. Likewise, the only way to Salvation, is through the Feminine (Mother Earth, Mother Nature – wind, air, earth, sky, plants, animals, the whole ecological and environmental eco-space we call ‘home’!).

Interesting but I don’t go with the Wicca duothestic view.

Why would a pagan want to become Catholic? You’ve drawn up an interesting exercise, Cyberwolfe. Why indeed? It depends on what sort of Catholic you propose we become. If we could become bishops and cardinals, the inducements are obvious. Access to billions of tax-free revenue and de-facto immunity from civil and criminal laws in most countries.

Now, if you’re proposing we become workaday kneel in the pews Catholics, the cost-benefit equation becomes somewhat more complex. Take the incense question for example. Church incense is usually bulk frankincense/myrhh crystals. A bit cloying, perhaps, but solid, midlle of the road ritual incense. A big step up from the unwashed hippy smell of nag champa and cat urine which usually wafts through bargain basement pagan home temples. On the other hand, a solid step down from the Japanese aloewood and sandalwood I prefer.

One potential selling point for Catholicism is that that they set a damn fine pagan altar themselves. With the partial exception of the Lord’s Supper/communion ritual of the Mass, ALL that they do is old-time pagan with a coat of gold spray paint over it. Some years I get conscripted to go to a Christmas Mass with visiting in-laws, and they had set a fine solstice altar weighed down with evergreen branches etc.

Why else jump the fence? Hard to say. I DID get a decent education from the Catholics. Ironically, I owe them the critical thinking skills that enabled me to defect from the church and take my own journey. Carmelites and Jesuits in pariticular are good educators. As an altar boy I learned the ebb and flow of ritual and experienced a calling to priesthood, which I ultimately followed in a very different vein.

Let’s face it. Catholics have some smokin hot women in their ranks. Some of my own lovers are Catholics, though not devout, as you might expect. The Catholic sense of taboo does add a twist to things that you can’t get from your average free-love pagan girl.

In all seriousness, the only reason someone should consider converting to or from anything is if a well-informed conscience directs them to do so. Too many are done in all directions out of simple rebellion or fear or manipulation from others.

Many good points my friend!

 

[SedesDomi]

Interesting but I don’t go with the Wicca duothestic view.

So, what’s your Pagan tradition/view?

 

[SedesDomi]

A good ritual which puts us in touch with the gods today is as good as anything performed 2,000 years ago.

Were these gods humans in a past life?

 

[kenofken]

They were known to take human form from time to time and to have had human offspring. I’m not sure if you’re asking if they were once human and then “promoted.” ? I must admit my own knowledge of them is limited to encounters I have for the purposes of my own healing, advice, renewal etc. Detailed study of immortal beings is a rather specialized branch of exobiology!

 

[Stylites]

I believe you missed the point of the thread…

I’d like to hear the reasons a Catholic would give a Pagan.

For starters, if Pagans worship creation then they are missing out on the Creator, who is infinitely greater and more beautiful than the sum of all creation. A person goes to whatever he worships, and it is infinitely better to go to the Godhead than to mere elemental spirits.

(Also as an aside, Hindus do not worship creation.)

 

[Izdaari]

^This. That you believe what it teaches is true, is the only good reason to follow any religion.

 

[Tradycja]

A pagan should become Catholic because otherwise he will go to hell!

#3 “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and
preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not
only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a
share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which
was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they
are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this
ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can
profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone
can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings,
their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian
soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if
he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he
remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.)

ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm

 

[cyberwolf001]

A pagan should become Catholic because otherwise he will go to hell!

#3 “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and
preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not
only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a
share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which
was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they
are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this
ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can
profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone
can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings,
their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian
soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if
he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he
remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.)

ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm

So it really is a case of worship or burn?

For my part I take the Gods that do not need to threaten us to gain our love.

 

[RoseRed2]

A pagan should become Catholic because it’s the one true Church.

 

[tomarin]

Or even an ecumenically-minded Protestant Christian.

 

[Tradycja]

Well what is the point of trying to convert anyone if they are not going to hell?

I don’t use “methods” I just put the truth out there.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Well what is the point of trying to convert anyone if they are not going to hell?

Indeed, that is the question. Do you have something better to offer than the Gods they worship? For example, my experience of Divinity has lead me to an understanding of Divinity that is labeled heretical and have been ostracized by my family. Yet my experiences have been powerful enough that I left the Church I once loved.

What would you offer to get me to return? Hellfire? While I don’t reject the concept, I reject the Christian’s understanding of how a person gets there.

What else do you offer?

 

[Tradycja]

Indeed, that is the question. Do you have something better to offer than the Gods they worship? For example, my experience of Divinity has lead me to an understanding of Divinity that is labeled heretical and have been ostracized by my family. Yet my experiences have been powerful enough that I left the Church I once loved.

What would you offer to get me to return? Hellfire? While I don’t reject the concept, I reject the Christian’s understanding of how a person gets there.

What else do you offer?

I am not offering you hellfire, I am trying to lead you to heaven. Jesus offers us heaven.

I don’t understand your other points.

Are you saying that experience is the only criteria for determining truth?