Why should a Pagan become Catholic.

[Edwin78]

So, a “pagan” is a “non-Christian”?

clicks fingers Oh right, there were the Jews too, the intended inheritors of Christianity.

Thanks for correcting me, SedesDomi

 

[tomarin]

As one of the pagan posters here, I woulf dispute the notion that we “worship nature.” Paganism is a wide field, so I can’t speak with absolute authority, but I would say it’s more accurate to say that we revere nature, and we come to understand the divine, and ourselves, through it. The natural cycles of life and death are patterned in the seasons of the year, the waxing and waning of the moon. the changing aspects of God and Goddess as they reflect the gifts and burdens of youth, middle and old age.

Thanks for this post. I didn’t intend the nature worship characterization as a slur just as a way of getting a grasp on what neo-paganism was all about. A point of departure, if you will.

The great delusion of apologetics is the idea that faith can be decided on intellectual cunning, that clever airtight argumentation can back someone into a corner and get them on board your own faith.

You’re probably right. Speaking for myself, I’m more interested in the search for wisdom and truth than toeing to any party line. I think that if you search for wisdom and truth God will not lead you astray. Or to quote Ghandi: “there is no God higher than truth.”

 

[Tradycja]

Except, in this case, we have a God who demanded the bloody, sacrificial death of his own Son, in the most brutal method conceived by man.

Yes but the key is since Jesus is God he actually sacrificed Himself.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Agreed.

I’m curious to know if any of the pagan posters have a response to the distinction between worshipping Creation and worshipping the Creator (see my post #26 and Stylites’ post #33). Is that a strawman argument? Do pagans not worship nature?

We worship spirits and gods. We often get told we worship nature for our love of it, and the fact many of the spirits are spirits of nature and many of the gods are gods of nature.

Think: Elves, Faw, Pan and Freyr.

Well there is peace to knowing that you are in the grace of God. And it’s like this analogy: Imagine that you are swimming and about to drown. No one is around but a pedestrian walks by sees you and jumps into the water to save you risking his own life. Would you not be appreciative of that person? Would that person be your best friend? Would not the fact that they sacrificed themselves for you inspire you to love that person?

Same thing with Jesus Christ.

Technically it would be more like being told someday years ago someone saved you from drowning an if you do not love this person above all things and people you will be tossed back into the ocean.

Hi Cyberwolf

Hello there.

Therefore, the best way to answer your question, Cyberwolf, is to look at history. It is best to know the answers of our ancestors as to “Why Catholicism?” because they were the true pagans, with no previous knowledge of Christianity, and yet were converted to Catholicism.

While I don’t wanna go into here always keep in mind most of the conversions came from military force and laws being imposed outlawing Pagan practice. Hardly needed with willing converts.

Now, Cyberwolf, a preliminary survey of history from ancient times til now showed me the honesty of pagans like you to label yourselves “Neo-Pagans”: your paganism is truly “Neo,” truly new. There is no historical evidence that any of the Western pagan cults survived from the ancient times til now. There may be rumors here and there of centers of sporadic pagan worship, but there is no linear progression, no tradition, no generations of worshipers passing down their teachings of pagan rituals and teachings from the ancient times til now. What we have evidence of the recent spread of paganism in the West is people of Christian ancestry creating pagan cults based on written accounts of ancient pagan worship.

For many Catholics this is treated as a nail in the coffin. Frankly we just don’t care. An yes there are surviving hold outs in Europe, the filled the holes in their faith with Neo-Pagan teachings.

Purity of liturgy just isn’t a big deal for us.

In other words, the Western world, at one point (specifically the end of the Dark Ages), totally abandoned paganism. That is my first answer to your question. If a whole continent (Europe) abandoned paganism for Christianity, then surely these people, our ancestors, found Christianity, the new religion, better than paganism, the religion they grew up with, right?

So above for military and judicial conquest parts.

Joy is the main difference between paganism and Christianity.

Joy is the answer and invitation of Christianity to the world, and joy is the challenge for Christians today. It is actually quite sad that Neo-Pagans like you, Cyberwolf, have to ask “why Catholicism?” when the reason should have been in plain sight whenever you meet a Catholic. And yet I am also glad that you did ask, for we need to remember this today.

While I had moments of joy as a Catholic, under it all was a constant fear and well the bleakest, blackest depression I’d ever been in. Greater than anything I’d ever experienced. Driving me almost to suicide.

As I have returned to Paganism I now have the greatest joy and peace I’d ever felt.

 

[Edwin78]

Hello there.

While I don’t wanna go into here always keep in mind most of the conversions came from military force and laws being imposed outlawing Pagan practice. Hardly needed with willing converts.

And what is that compared to three hundred years of persecution of Christianity in the Roman Empire? Two hundred years of outlawing in Japan?

If people really loved paganism, then no matter how brutal, how severe the persecution against them, they will still practice them secretly.

For many Catholics this is treated as a nail in the coffin. Frankly we just don’t care. An yes there are surviving hold outs in Europe, the filled the holes in their faith with Neo-Pagan teachings.

You see, if there is no evidence of that, then
Purity of liturgy just isn’t a big deal for us.

I was not talking about Neo-paganism, I was talking about paganism: a straight generational handing down of old paganism that is verifiable by history. Is there such a thing? Because if there is none, then there was no people who loved paganism so much as to practice it and pass it on to others in spite of prolonged persecution.

So above for military and judicial conquest parts.

While I had moments of joy as a Catholic, under it all was a constant fear and well the bleakest, blackest depression I’d ever been in. Greater than anything I’d ever experienced. Driving me almost to suicide.

I did too. Even almost to suicide. And yet what sustained me was the example of the martyrs and saints, of their ineffable joy even here on Earth. And now, I am having the first tastes of it. And oh my it is glorious! ^___^

As I have returned to Paganism I now have the greatest joy and peace I’d ever felt.

Then why are you still asking? Why are you still curious about the Catholic Church? What are you looking for?

God bless you.

 

[seeker57]

And what is that compared to three hundred years of persecution of Christianity in the Roman Empire? Two hundred years of outlawing in Japan?

If people really loved paganism, then no matter how brutal, how severe the persecution against them, they will still practice them secretly.

I was not talking about Neo-paganism, I was talking about paganism: a straight generational handing down of old paganism that is verifiable by history. Is there such a thing? Because if there is none, then there was no people who loved paganism so much as to practice it and pass it on to others in spite of prolonged persecution.

God bless you.

Unfortunately, Christians seem to want everyone to believe as they do, and sometimes pursue their proselytization with a zealousness that makes them unpopular. This leads to discrimination and, in some places prohibition and, for some of y’all, martyrdom.

The persecution of the Christians could most likely have been avoided if the Christians had allowed a statue of Jesus to be placed in the Pantheon alongside the Roman Gods.

Of course, Christians bristle at the idea of multiple gods, so that didn’t work out.

The Japanese had an existing religious structure in place when the Christians tried to move in. Of course, that didn’t go over too well either. It still doesn’t to this day.

Now, I know you Christians believe you have the “one true faith,” but others don’t share that view and some react with hostility when you tell them they must turn or burn.

Regarding paganism as it exists today, some believe there are those who did actually continue to practice in secret, even if outwardly praying as a Christian, thus allowing the tradition to be passed on.

It is true many Pagans converted to Christianity either because they liked it, or were forced to make the switch under pain of death after lingering torture.

Many others told the Christians to take a hike. It is said the Danube ran red with the blood of pagans who refused to convert and were slaughtered by Charlemagne’s troops.

But regardless of whether the beliefs stem from ancient roots or are of more modern creation, Pagans are a religious movement that has more than 1 million adherents in the United States alone.

Edited to add: Actually, according to the Pew Research Center, there are more Pagans then there are Unitarian Universalists!

 

[Contarini]

Well what is the point of trying to convert anyone if they are not going to hell?

Well, trying to convert anyone is a bad idea, because only the Holy Spirit converts.

However, witnessing to our Faith is a very good idea. Don’t you believe the Faith is true? Does it take the threat of hell to make the Faith worthwhile for you? It doesn’t really convey confidence in the Catholic Faith to hear that the only thing than which it’s better is hellfire!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Except, in this case, we have a God who demanded the bloody, sacrificial death of his own Son, in the most brutal method conceived by man.

No, that’s a distorted Western version of Christian theology.

God doesn’t “demand” things. We handed ourselves over to death, and God submitted to death to get us back.

Edwin

 

[josie_L]

Well, trying to convert anyone is a bad idea, because only the Holy Spirit converts.

However, witnessing to our Faith is a very good idea. Don’t you believe the Faith is true? Does it take the threat of hell to make the Faith worthwhile for you? It doesn’t really convey confidence in the Catholic Faith to hear that the only thing than which it’s better is hellfire!
Edwin

You know that’s not what she meant Edwin, i.e., Jesus came to save us from sin/death, as such we preach/live the faith knowing it gives life, which saves us from sin/death (Hell).

 

[Contarini]

You know that’s not what she meant Edwin

No, I don’t know that. That’s why I’m paraphrasing her words back to her so she can tell me if that’s what she meant to convey. Because that’s what her words conveyed to me, and I’m pretty sure that’s what her words conveyed to the pagans on this thread (ask them if you don’t believe me).

Christians who talk this way are damaging the witness of the Christian Faith seriously.

Edwin

 

[josie_L]

No, I don’t know that. That’s why I’m paraphrasing her words back to her so she can tell me if that’s what she meant to convey. Because that’s what her words conveyed to me, and I’m pretty sure that’s what her words conveyed to the pagans on this thread (ask them if you don’t believe me).

Christians who talk this way are damaging the witness of the Christian Faith seriously.

Edwin

You could have given her the benefit of the doubt, it’s your Christian duty.

 

[Contarini]

You could have given her the benefit of the doubt, it’s your Christian duty.

When judging her heart, sure. I’m assuming that there’s a lot more to her personal faith than fear of hell.

But when we are both representing the Christian Faith to pagans, I have to respond to her words as they sound. I would hope that my paraphrase would be so jarring a contrast with what she actually believes that she would realize that she had expressed herself extremely badly.

Edwin

 

[josie_L]

When judging her heart, sure. I’m assuming that there’s a lot more to her personal faith than fear of hell.

But when we are both representing the Christian Faith to pagans, I have to respond to her words as they sound. I would hope that my paraphrase would be so jarring a contrast with what she actually believes that she would realize that she had expressed herself extremely badly.

Edwin

Well, I don’t think you did a great job of expressing yourself either, you sounded like you were judging her.

 

[cyberwolf001]

And what is that compared to three hundred years of persecution of Christianity in the Roman Empire? Two hundred years of outlawing in Japan?

About 1200 years. 1800 if you wanna count in the revivals that happened. Including our latest and most successful one.

If people really loved paganism, then no matter how brutal, how severe the persecution against them, they will still practice them secretly.

It keeps coming back and here and there you had hold out families and villages. Most don’t count these as they do not have complex theologies, liturgies and sacred texts.

I was not talking about Neo-paganism, I was talking about paganism: a straight generational handing down of old paganism that is verifiable by history. Is there such a thing? Because if there is none, then there was no people who loved paganism so much as to practice it and pass it on to others in spite of prolonged persecution.

As I said there are indeed such in Europe and they have melded with the Neo-Pagan community filling the holes they had over time with Neo-Pagan teachings and the
Neo-Pagans. Again it seems for some reason this doesn’t count due to the lack of complex liturgies, theologies and sacred text on the part of the remnants.

 

[tomarin]

I’m not familiar with Russia but in Bulgaria their ruler, seeing everyone else in the known world converting to Christianity, converted after considering the different options (Greek or Latin) and it seems it was a foregone conclusion that all of his subjects would follow suit. It wasn’t necessary as far as I know to draw any swords. There were “northern crusades” in Scandinavia and the Baltics that would fit the bill of “fire and sword.”

I think you’re right though that paganism did not die out overnight and many pre-Christian cultural practices lingered on througout the Middle Ages. Take the Yule Log (or many of the celebratory trappings of Christmas, curiously enough) for example, which is a leftover from a pre-Christian Germanic holiday called “Yule.”

Once on a visit to Ireland (if I can bring it on back home) I visited some magical grove of a saint with my relatives and couldn’t help but feel that this had been sacred ground for a long, long time; even before St. Patrick drove out the snakes.

 

[tomarin]

I agree with everything you’ve written here, especially the importance of not walking through fairy circles.

 

[kenofken]

Pre-Christian old line paganism DID survive in substantial, if not complete fashion in a number of places in the Baltic, Northern and Eastern Europe. Moreover, it survived WITHIN Christianity through folk practices and through the Christian religion itself. Remember that conquest is a complex business. In a very real sense the conquerors are absorbed by the culture they take over, as well as the reverse. Many of the ritual forms and essentiall all of the Christian holidays are pagan in origin and sufficed to fill the spiritual needs of many pagans who were in transition in the early centuries. By another example, the peoples of Latin America, the most Catholic in the world today, never let go of a shred of their paganism. They simply weaved the two together and do to this day.

Many pagans did die for their faith, but remember that they faced 1500 years of persecution, not the two or three hundred which ultimately got Christians a Roman emperor to go to bat for them. Other factors also worked against pagan preservation. Their traditions were largely carried on without benefit of written records, and were more experiential than liturgical. In those circumstances, the whole thing can be lost in a generation or two of disuse. Most pagans were also not terribly concerned about purity of doctrine. They worked with many different gods and in many cases thought they were still pagan after adopting one called Christ. Early church fathers didn’t push too hard on this point. They though they just got the latest software download, so to speak. The crackdown on native practices came later.

I guess I also don’t get the premise of the debate or the suggestion that Christianity itself is the same as it was 2,000 years ago. It too evolved and bears very scant resemblance to what was done in the early centuries. I don’t see a lot of Arian or Gnostic or Neo-Platonic Christians running around today, even though they were the meat and bread of the show at times back then. Likewise not many modern Christians are also devout Jews, and that was part of the deal at the start as well. Things evolve. There is some continuity in a few broad ideas about Christ and his mission, but not much more than that.

As a “neo” pagan, I think it would be neat to know some of what the ancients did, but I’m not worried about the break in continuity. A handful of centuries is peanuts to the Gods, and they’re perfectly happy to work with us despite our lack of apostolic succession. On some level I’m glad we don’t have millenia of cultural and poltical baggage weighing us down. History can be both a good foundation but also a prison. We’re free to know our gods as 21st Century people, not as long-dead ancestors thought we should.

 

[SedesDomi]

As a “neo” pagan, I think it would be neat to know some of what the ancients did, but I’m not worried about the break in continuity.

Some neo-Pagans suggest that some among themselves, having been Pagan in past-lives, might bring some residual memory of Pagan practices with them, into the 21st century.

 

[PJM]

=cyberwolf001;6951112]Sense we have many of us talking on here I thought I’d bring this subject up. I am big on cutting to the meat of an issue.

I’ve seen many Why be Catholic articles but most are aimed at Atheists, Jews and Protestants.

So what reasons would a Neo-Pagan need to be Catholic.

Let us skip over the usual, turn or burn deals also. An of course keep it civil my good men and women. ^.^

***Because God is REAL

Because Hell is Real

Because Eternity is forever

Because it is we ourselves NOT GOD who decide where we freely choose to spend ETERNITY***

 

[seeker57]

***Because God is REAL

Because Hell is Real

Because Eternity is forever

Because it is we ourselves NOT GOD who decide where we freely choose to spend ETERNITY***

Pagans believe their Gods are real.

I agree with the Pagasn regarding hell. There is no such place.

Evil does exist, but it is found in the hearts of humans.

I believe we opt for the path we follow in this life.

But then, but we all go home to God.