)Let’s start with this: this is not a rational position. The Church has three types of doctrines: those declared infallible (ex cathedra), those taught infallibly, and what are called ordinary teachings. The Church teaching on women priests is an example of the second type. The significance of rejecting such a teaching is simply this: you reject the very basis on which the Church claims to exist. It is not simply that you disagree with the Church about the nature of the priesthood; whether or not you realize it you are rejecting what the Church believes about herself. Simply put, if the Church is wrong on this point there is no reason to believe she is right about anything and certainly no reason to believe she is what she claims to be. A rejection of an infallible teaching is a rejection of the Church and you should understand it as such.
It is not true (as some have claimed) that "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic."Actually only those are to be included (annumerandi) as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body (neque a Corporis compage semet ipsos misere separarunt), or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. (Pius XII - Mystici Corporus Christi)
Because you have rejected a basic tenet of the Church and once you’ve done that nothing else about the Church hangs together. If you are right and the Church has made “mistakes” in her core beliefs then everything she proclaims is suspect and there is no reason to believe any claim she makes. At this point it is irrational to be a Catholic.
You haven’t disputed the (two) ex cathedra declarations but you have surely rejected several infallible teachings.
I’m amused by the sheer volume of people who think it’s God’s job to validate your opinions. Especially when everyone’s opinions conflict.
If you believe all these things then you ought to believe those things it teaches under the teaching authority which Jesus explicitly gave it, and which He promised they would exercise with His guidance. And therefore you ought to believe that it is impossible for the Church to make “a few mistakes” in its teachings. (Dollars to donuts, by the way, that you, like most dissenters, think those mistakes mostly have to do with sex).
Great. Then do your duty and submit to his authority.
The priesthood isn’t a job. It’s a vocation. And some vocations do belong exclusively to men and others to women. Fatherhood belongs to men, motherhood to women. You are talking about this issue using modern categories of speech that frustrate rational thought.
It’s not about “reproductive changes.” It’s about the natural function of sexual complementarity as God designed it. Sterile couples are sterile per accidens but they still retain the natural function which God assigned them by virtue of their sexuality; gay couples are sterile per se. Read philosophy. Or just submit the judgment of a thousand generations of holier and wiser men than you.
This is embarrassing. It isn’t about chances. It isn’t about outcomes. Catholic ethics are non-consequentialist. Read Humanae Vitae.
When we understand “moral teaching of the church” properly, they are infallible. Ex cathedra statements are just one means of promulgating such teachings. Do you realize it’s possible to do one thing in more than one way?
No, they want you to repent of your errors and the hubris that motivates that you retain them against the judgment of a thousand generation of saint and the Church’s protection, by God Himself, of error in its moral teachings.
They aren’t relatively minor, and you don’t get to decide what teachings have what importance. That’s another example of hubris, thinking you get to decide not only what teachings are in error but to what extent they can command belief, when you have authority to do neither. Being Catholic doesn’t mean checking off a laundry list of beliefs and getting 70% or above. This isn’t a class in undergrad.
He certainly made me want to look further into the Protestant churches. Maybe it is people like him that lead people to live the Catholic church.No doubt.Hopefully the battering does not lead him further away if your intent is for him to be more faithful.
Did this kind of statement come from your Catholic faith?:Julia, if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck there’s no point letting it think it’s a swan
THIS…
Jesus give precise instructions that when there is a problem we are to “tell it to the Church” and then we are to “Listen to the Church” for it is the Church which as the authority to “Bind and loose” “Whatever” (Mt 18:15-18)
We also see in Scripture where the Church exercises this authority by setting aside virtually the entire Mosaic Law at the Council of Jerusalem. (Acts 15)
Humility should dictate to us that our personal views, while important to overall understanding, should always be subject to the will of the Holy Spirit Christ founded, Holy Spirit guided Church.
Peace
James
Egg-zactly.After reading through most of this thread, I was reminded of the scene in John 6 where many of the disciples left over the teaching of the Eucharist. Jesus asked the 12 if they were going to leave too. Their response was, “Where shall we go? You have the words of eternal life”. The Apostles did not understand all that Jesus taught - yet they remained - trying to understand and placing their faith in Jesus.
When we struggle with Church teaching, and all of us do at some point or other, I think that it is good to recall this idea. This idea of not “making up our minds”, but of sticking around and trying to understand.
So to the OP, I join the others in saying that you should not leave the Church…BUT…
(you knew there would be a but didn’t you…
It is very important that you keep these doubts of yours to yourself - and perhaps your spiritual counselor. It is important that you NOT teach them to other Catholics. To do so would be to place your soul in mortal danger for Jesus himself said that it would be better for those who lead others astray to have a millstone tied around their neck and tossed into the sea. (Mt 18:6)
And by the way I don’t consider this thread to be a violation of what I just stated since the subject is not the particular teachings.
So - If you harbor private doubts and concerns about Church teachings that is one thing…Please stay and continue to discuss, inquire even debate and learn.
But - if you feel driven to take your heterodox views public - not as questions but as “teaching” under your received “guidance from God” - and in a manner that causes confusion and scandal then yes I would say that you need to leave the Church.
Peace
James
Though I see it all the time, it never ceases to amaze me when Catholics on this site seem to think they can make the judgment that another Catholic misunderstands or is improperly catechized just because they may disagree or dissent. A Catholic may understand Church teaching quite well but may be at a point on their lifelong faith journey with our Lord where they disagree with something.
Well, in this case, he himself advertised his misunderstandings of Church teachings. See why, for instance, he says he opposes the Church’s teachings on gay marriage and contraception. They rest on misapprehensions of what the Church actually teaches.
You may be confusing membership with full faithful practice. But it’s understandable because I’ve found even Catholics on this site who purport to be giving Catholic answers confuse them too. Also a Catholic such as you described might be at peace with their conscience but perhaps just not in good standing according to the Catholic Church. I understand you are of the United Church of Christ, a church I greatly respect btw. But Catholics who have a problem with baptized/confirmed Catholics remaining in the Catholic Church or calling themselves Catholic, probably need to take up their disagreement with the Church definition of who is a member of the Catholic Church with someone higher up the chain than me.
Peace be with you my friend in Christ and God bless!.Julia, this was very well stated. Even when a Catholic denies someone who the Church also considers to be a Catholic, the right to call themselves Catholic if they choose to do so, they too are choosing from the cafe. Indeed each of us of faith are just trying to walk our journey through life on this earth in hope of eternal life. And no one can say but Him. God bless you for this post and His peace be wth you always.
People who as he said, batter, made me want to look further too.
this is the year of faith.Since you,for the most part believe and obey doctrines of the faith,maybe a refresher course n the Cathecism of the Catholic Church,would clarify some of the issues you have with social doctrine. I am enrolled in sch a study,complete the first pillar,which was the Creed.We will now start on the Sacraments.
I can’t help but think that this is the same response that people had to Jesus when he had some “hard sayings”. See John 6. After Jesus said that very difficult saying people went to look further into other theologies because they found Him so offensive.
A life of prayer and a life of the spirit, nurtured by the Sacraments of Confession and Communion. And pray the Rosary everyday.
You’ve already left the Church, you just don’t wish to admit it. As for taking a lesson on Papal Infallibility, you might wish to look in the mirror on that one. I suggest starting here. catholicproductions.com/store/audio/apostle_peter_conference/apostle_peter_set.html
PR, I shall nevertheless assume you aren’t equating or comparing anyone here who “batter” with their “hard sayings” with Jesus.
