Why should Catholics Abhore OSAS?

[Swiss_Guard]

Continued from previous post…

sonseeker:

No need to explain it, but since you disagree, how do you square works as saving you with these verses: Acts 13:39, Rom 3:20; read also Romans 4 with regard to Abraham, as mentioned by James to see that Abraham has nothing to boast about with His works, they cannot save him, but are a gift of God prepared beforehand (Eph 2:10); Rom 11:6; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:8-9; and don’t say that I am taking them out of context, I am not. Clearly, if your understanding of James is true, then the Scriptures are contradicting themselves.

Bill

1: What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7: Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8: Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9: Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10: How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11: And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13: For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14: For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. (Romans 4:1-15)

Once again, St. Paul is speaking to those who believe the Mosaic law has not been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. He makes it clear that circumcision isn’t necessary for salvation. Some of the Jewish converts believed it was still necessary to follow the law. The Catholic Church has always taught that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law.

1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. (Romans 11:1-8)

I expanded on chapter 11 of Romans to show that St. Paul is talking about the works of the Mosaic law performed by the Jews. St. Paul teaches as Catholics believe, that faith is necessary for salvation. Notice how St. Paul says the works without grace is not salvific. St. Paul is not saying works aren’t necessary for salvation, he’s saying works alone cannot obtain salvation.

Continued in next post…

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Continued from previous post…

sonseeker:

No need to explain it, but since you disagree, how do you square works as saving you with these verses: Acts 13:39, Rom 3:20; read also Romans 4 with regard to Abraham, as mentioned by James to see that Abraham has nothing to boast about with His works, they cannot save him, but are a gift of God prepared beforehand (Eph 2:10); Rom 11:6; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:8-9; and don’t say that I am taking them out of context, I am not. Clearly, if your understanding of James is true, then the Scriptures are contradicting themselves.

Bill

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14: But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15: We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:14-16)

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Again, I expanded on this passage to show that St. Paul is addressing the Jewish converts who believe that the Mosaic law must still be observed. This passage is also used by Protestants against papal infallibility, but a closer examination shows that St. Peter was not being admonished by St. Paul for heresy, but rather for giving a bad example to the Jews and Gentiles.

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11: But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12: For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. (Galatians 2:11-12)

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8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9: Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

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St. Paul is once again stating Catholic teaching that faith is necessary for salvation. We cannot obtain salvation by works alone. However, in verse 10, he states we are to walk in good works. Salvation is obtained by faith and works. Faith must come first, but works are necessary.

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You didn’t take any of the Bible passages out of context. You misunderstand Catholic teaching about the necessity of faith and works for salvation.

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I will address the rest tomorrow. It’s late and I need to get to sleep so I can make 8:30 Tridentine Mass tomorrow. It’s an Indult Mass, I’m not a schismatic.

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I know my posts have been long, so I don’t expect a response to everything. I hope you continue our conversation and that you are enjoying it as much as I enjoy it. Please respond whenever you have the opportunity.

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Pax tecum.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

MaggieOH:

I am not detailing here all of my theological reasons for objecting to OSAS but I have plenty of them. BTW Swiss Guard you are doing a great job with your responses.

Thank you very much for the compliment. Sonseeker’s posts are very well thought out. He is doing an excellent job making his points, even if I disagree with them. I hope to continue our conversations because it’s nice to debate a non-Catholic who respects us Catholics and our beliefs.

 

[sonseeker]

Thessalonian:

Sonseeker,

You said:

Salvation is accomplished in Christ Jesus. It is finished.

Could I have a Bible quote please. I know which one you will use but humor

me.Gen 49:18; Ex 14:13, 15:2; 1 Sam 2:1; 2 Sam 22:36, 47; 1 Chron 16:23, 35; Ps 3:8; 13:5; 18:35, 46; 25:5; 27:9; 35:3; 37:39; 38:22; 40:10, 16; 50:23; 51:14; 62:1; Lk 1:69; 2:30; 3:6; Acts 4:12; 28:28 Rom 10:9-10; 1 Thess 5:9; 2 Thess 2:13; 1 Pet 1:3; James 1:18 etc.

 

[piety101]

As I previously posted, OSAS is a lie. For we all must go to a purgatorial state before entering heaven to have any remaining sins removed so as by fire. This is the teaching of our church.

 

[Matt16_18]

petra:

There are many Protestants that believe in OSAS that do not use that as license and still serve God selflessly.

While this is true, it does not negate the fact that OSAS is a diabolical doctrine from the depths of hell.

OSAS comes in two variations, the Calvinist variation (no one has free will, not even the elect), and the antinomian variation (the “saved” have free will and there is NO sin that a “saved” man could commit that would lead to his damnation).

The Calvinist version of OSAS is outrageous blasphemy because it teaches that, ultimately, God is the cause and source of evil in the world. No sane person really believes that they are nothing but meat robots living without free will. And no sane person really believes that because he is one of the “elect” that he is incapable of sinning.

The antinomian version of OSAS is blasphemy because it teaches that while Christians should live holy lives, they don’t have to live holy lives if they don’t feel like it. If a “saved” Christian wants to commit mortal sin, they have that option, with full assurance of their salvation. Carrying the cross is NOT necessary to be ”saved” . I had an OSAS believing friend believed because she was “saved”, that she had the option to commit suicide to be with Jesus, and one day, she did. This is just one real life example of why OSAS is such a deadly lie.

 

[Matt16_18]

piety101:

As I previously posted, OSAS is a lie. For we all must go to a purgatorial state before entering heaven to have any remaining sins removed so as by fire. This is the teaching of our church.

OSAS is indeed a deadly lie, but it is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church that everyone must enter purgatory. The Catholic Church teaches that by fully cooperating with God’s grace on this earth, that is quite possible to reach a level of Christian perfection of such a degree that one would immediately enter heaven upon one’s death. To deny this, is to deny that the power of God’s grace is sufficient to bring us to perfection. (What you are saying is the same heresy that the Calvinists preach - i.e. that God’s grace is insufficient to bring us to a state on earth where we can overcome our propensity to commit sin). “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
2Cor. 12:9

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:13-14

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
1Cor. 10:13

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Swiss Guard:

Thank you for your reply. Pull up a comfortable chair and grab a cold beverage because I have many questions to ask and many points to make. It will take several posts, so I don’t expect you to reply to every post. I hope you will be able to answer my questions.

I didn’t mean to upset you by my comment about leading sinful lives. I didn’t realize I was being offensive.

Actually, what this compares to is the tired claim you put forth that Catholics believe we are saved by works alone. This is a heresy known as Pelagianism. This is a brief explanation of Pelagianism:
catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp

I hope you will extend the same courtesy to Catholics that you want Catholics to extend to you. Catholics do not believe we are saved by works alone but rather by faith and works.

---

Not by works before justification, however - they have no value whatever except as purely human acts.​

**

According to Fundamentalists, salvation is obtained by:

1. Acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior
2. Repentance of sins

Now, if I accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and repent of my sins, I am saved. There is nothing I can do to lose this salvation. I can be the worst sinner ever but I will still go to heaven because I cannot lose salvation because I have fulfilled the necessary requirements for salvation.**

---

Taken in a minimalist sense, this is a severe distortion of (say) the Calvinist form of OSAS: because it completely omits the small matter of Christian obedience. Obedience is not meritorious in Calvinism - but it is required nonetheless, because Christ was obedient. So His disciples cannot live otherwise.​

That a saved sinner cannot be lost, is no more a reason or an excuse for continuing in disobedience than is the doctrine of salvation by grace itself - which S.Paul insists is not a licence to sin. Those who do abuse grace like that, should expect a heavy judgement, according to the NT: because they are trampling on the blood of Christ which was shed to maker them righteous and holy before God. Christ did not die in order to free us to sin against Him - which is why antinomianism is so monstrous - satanic, in fact. It is a “doctrine straight from the pit of Hell” (thanks, Matt )

Do Catholics consider themselves free to pile sin upon sin, and to live like devils rather than men, because there is a sacrament designed especially for sins ? Neither need OSAS lead to such hellish conclusions. ##

If I’m wrong about this, please correct me. I listened to what you said and thought about it. I found it to be illogical.

First, let me deal with your question regarding the Council of Trent. This is the anathema you are speaking about regarding works being the fruit of faith:

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose [Page 49] living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.
history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

Good works can be done by those without faith. An atheist can help the poor. Is this a good work? Absolutely. However, as Catholics believe, he cannot receive sanctifying grace because his soul is in a state of mortal sin. He may obtain acutal grace from God to move him to receive the theological virtue of faith, but he does not sanctify his soul. If good works are the fruits of faith, then they aren’t really good works, since we were compelled by faith to do it. Free will is necessary for us to do anything because without it we are puppets controlled by God and therefore we aren’t created in his likeness because God is free. Again, if I have stated anything incorrectly, please point it out.

I will address the rest of the quote in the next post.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt16_18:

While this is true, it does not negate the fact that OSAS is a diabolical doctrine from the depths of hell.

The Calvinist version of OSAS is outrageous blasphemy because it teaches that, ultimately, God is the cause and source of evil in the world.

What?

How about biblical OSAS, as cited in 1 Pet 1 above?

 

[sonseeker]

piety101:

As I previously posted, OSAS is a lie. For we all must go to a purgatorial state before entering heaven to have any remaining sins removed so as by fire. This is the teaching of our church.

I say, OSAS is not a lie. It is the teaching of God.

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

What?

How about biblical OSAS, as cited in 1 Pet 1 above?

There is no such thing as “biblical OSAS”. OSAS isn’t part of the Gospel of Christ - it is the utter destruction of the Gospel of Christ. How do you get the false doctrine of Calvinist OSAS out of 1Peter1? Just read a little farther in that epistle and you will see that Peter says this: … you rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy, as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls.
1Peter 1:8-10Note that Peter teaches that salvation is a goal that Christians must attain. Peter never teaches that the Christians that he is writing to have ALREADY obtained the goal, and that they cannot become backsliders. Peter teaches the opposite of OSAS, since he teaches that the Christians that return to a life of sin are in a WORSE state than they were before came to a knowledge of Jesus as their savior.For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
2Peter 2:20Calvinism is indeed outrageous blasphemy, because this false religion teaches that God is the source of all evil in the world. In the Calvinist religion, all men and women are created without free will, and all men and women are born totally depraved. God arbitrarily picks out a few of the totally depraved men and women and forces irresistible grace upon them. These “frozen chosen” instantly become God’s “elect”. The “elect” are transformed by irresistible grace from being totally depraved meat robots into holy and sanctified meat robots. But so what if these meat robots are now holy? The elect had no choice in the matter. The totally depraved men and women have no choice in how they live either.

Since the totally depraved have no free will, they have no choice but to do the will of God, and since it is God’s will for them to live totally depraved lives, that is how they live. Hence it is not fault of the totally depraved that they commit evil, it is God’s fault that they commit evil, because God has capriciously decided that he would not to force irresistible grace upon them. Under Calvinism, all evil is ultimately traceable to a monstrous God that creates men, women, and angels in a totally depraved state, and then maliciously decides that he will not give the depraved men, women and angels the irresistible grace that they need so that they can quit being evil.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

There is no such thing as “biblical OSAS”. OSAS isn’t part of the Gospel of Christ - it is the utter destruction of the Gospel of Christ. How do you get the false doctrine of Calvinist OSAS out of 1Peter1?

**Just read a little farther in that epistle and you will see that Peter says this: **… you rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy, as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls.

Note that Peter teaches that salvation is a goal that Christians must attain. Peter never teaches that the Christians that he is writing to have ALREADY obtained the goal…Notice the underlined phrase as you attain the goal. You have inserted the word must which is not in the text. Don’t do that; the word “must” is not there. The key word is attain . The NASB translates it obtaining. The “-ing” suffix makes the word a ”participle.” It is in fact a present participle, komizomenoi, (komidzomenoi), the “-menoi” suffix makes the word a present participle, which in the Greek denotes a completed action with continuous ongoing results. The Greek word komizw (komidzo) is translated obtaining. It is better translated receiving. Don’t take my word for it, look it up yourself.

So a better translation is: …you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory receiving as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

I am sure that you will reject that translation as you seem to me from other discussions I have had with you, like one of those who has never read a fact he couldn’t ignore.

And, yes, people do backslide. Notice in the passage that though their condition is worse, Peter never says, in this case, that their condition is LOST. People do backslide, and are restored. Remember the story about the rooster crowing three times?

Go back and read verse 4 again. Notice the inheritance [of the kingdom of God] is called: IMPERISHABLE…UNDEFILED…WILL NOT FADE AWAY…RESERVED IN HEAVEN FOR YOU. It sounds secure to me, but again, facts you will probably ignore.
Matt 16_18:

Calvinism is indeed outrageous blasphemy, because this false religion teaches that God is the source of all evil in the world. In the Calvinist religion, all men and women are created without free will, and all men and women are born totally depraved. God arbitrarily picks out a few of the totally depraved men and women and forces irresistible grace upon them. These “frozen chosen” instantly become God’s “elect”. The “elect” are transformed by irresistible grace from being totally depraved meat robots into holy and sanctified meat robots. But so what if these meat robots are now holy? The elect had no choice in the matter. The totally depraved men and women have no choice in how they live either.

Since the totally depraved have no free will, they have no choice but to do the will of God, and since it is God’s will for them to live totally depraved lives, that is how they live. Hence it is not fault of the totally depraved that they commit evil, it is God’s fault that they commit evil,

because God has capriciously decided that he would not to force irresistible grace upon them. Under Calvinism, all evil is ultimately traceable to a monstrous God that creates men, women, and angels in a totally depraved state, and then maliciously decides that he will not give the depraved men, women and angels the irresistible grace that they need so that they can quit being evil.What you have done here is to memorize, without any understanding, arguments against a subject about which you clearly know nothing. Well done!

Bill

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

And, yes, people do backslide. Notice in the passage that though their condition is worse, Peter never says, in this case, that their condition is LOST. People do backslide, and are restored.

I know that you believe in the Calvinist version of OSAS. But Calvinists are anything by consistent in what they believe, so let us establish what YOU believe. As a Calvinist, you seem to believe that humans have free will, because you state, ”people do backslide.” But if even the “elect” can be disobedient to God’s will, then it seems to me that you cannot possibly deny that men have free will. For how can it possibly be God’s will to be disobedient to his will? That cannot be, because God’s will cannot be in conflict with God’s will. The only way that a member of the “elect” could be disobedient to God’s will is to freely choose to become disobedient. If you want to deny that the “elect” have free will, I would like to see how you can reconcile that belief with your belief that the “elect” can become backsliders.

Next you also say, “People do backslide, and are restored.” And I agree with that with this qualification: Christians that backslide and REPENT of their sins can be restored. But what about the Christians that backslide and do not repent? What about the Christians that fall away and do not endure to the end? Will they be saved? Scripture is clear that that Christians have the hope of being saved ONLY IF they are obedient to God’s will:you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word
1Cor 15:1-2

he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him
John 3:36If you are going to argue that God will force irresistible grace on the “elect” that have backslid, and by the power of that irresistible grace, force all backslid Christians to repent, then you have a big problem. Because if this is the way that God operates, then why won’t all men be saved by the same process? For scriptures clearly teaches that God desires all men to come to repentance.The Lord is … not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

God our Savior … desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim 2: 3-4We know from scriptures that God desires all men to come to repentance, and if irresistible grace is the ONLY way that men can come to repentance, then God must either give all men irresistible grace, or God’s desire for all men to be saved is in direct conflict with his actions.

Such is the irrationality of Calvinism. It is clear from scriptures that God desires all men to be saved, but Calvinism does not teach Universalism. Calvinism teaches that only the “elect” will be saved because irresistible grace will force even backslid Christians to endure to the end.

What you have done here is to memorize, without any understanding, arguments against a subject about which you clearly know nothing. Well done!

What you have done is avoid the argument that I have raised - namely that Calvinist theology forces one to accept that God is the source of all evil in the world.

 

[sonseeker]

Swiss Guard:

I didn’t mean to upset you by my comment about leading sinful lives. I didn’t realize I was being offensive.

I am not offended, just weary of that argument.
Swiss Guard:

Actually, what this compares to is the tired claim you put forth that Catholics believe we are saved by works alone. This is a heresy known as Pelagianism. This is a brief explanation of Pelagianism:

Yes, I know what Pelagianism is.

Grace + Works is a form of Pelagianism called Semi-Pelagianism. That is what you are espousing. Also, I do understand that you do not believe that you are saved by works alone.
Swiss Guard:

According to Fundamentalists, salvation is obtained by:

1. Acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior
2. Repentance of sins

Now, if I accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and repent of my sins, I am saved. There is nothing I can do to lose this salvation. I can be the worst sinner ever but I will still go to heaven because I cannot lose salvation because I have fulfilled the necessary requirements for salvation.

This is a biblical truth (Is 28:16; Acts 16:29-31; Rom 4:24; 9:33; 10:9-10).
Swiss Guard:

First, let me deal with your question regarding the Council of Trent. This is the anathema you are speaking about regarding works being the fruit of faith: CANON XXXII.

I had no question, but made a statement. I believe what is here being anathematized.
Swiss Guard:

I’m confused about your statement about Abraham and Rahab. You said after we receive the free gift of faith from God, we take over and earn our salvation…How is what you state different from Catholic teaching?

That is not what I said, but it is my fault that you understood it that way. I wrote hastily, and so not clearly; if you re-read what I said you’ll see that I am say we do not take over and earn our salvation.

39: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39)

This is Catholic teaching. We cannot be justified by the law, we need faith in Jesus. However, we are not to stop at justification, we need to proceed to sanctification because, as St. Peter writes, “*Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” *Remember, Catholics believe in faith and works, not works alone.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that you are taught that you are justified, at least initially, by baptism? The verse you have quoted above says that by *belief in Him *(Christ), we “are justified from all things.” Justified, past tense—accomplished by Him (Christ)—if we are justified (past tense) by Christ, how do present works justify what has been justified? Sanctification is necessary; it is a moving away from sin to holiness. What we earn through sanctification is holiness, not grace (which is free and cannot be earned).

(continued below)

 

[sonseeker]

(continued from post #54)

6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I expanded on chapter 11 of Romans to show that St. Paul is talking about the works of the Mosaic law performed by the Jews. St. Paul teaches as Catholics believe, that faith is necessary for salvation. Notice how St. Paul says the works without grace is not salvific.** St. Paul is not saying works aren’t necessary for salvation**, he’s saying works alone cannot obtain salvation.

I have no problem with your understanding Romans 4 and 11 as far as it dealing with the Jews and the end of the Mosaic law, with one exception: I think that you have missed Paul’s point.

Paul’s point: grace…no more of works. Paul is saying that God’s grace and Human works are mutually exclusive (Rom 3:21-31; 4:1-11; 9:11; Gal 2:16, 21; 3:11, 12, 18; Titus 3:5). The verses I have cited say no works. In your saying that Paul says that works are necessary for salvation, Paul is placed in the position of contradicting himself. Do you see that?

You have said that we cannot be justified by the works of the Mosaic law. How, then, can we practically apply what you have told me? Here is how we can apply your discovery of works of the Mosaic law not being able to save:

If we cannot be saved by keeping God’s (Mosaic) law, then we cannot be saved by keeping any law.

Sacramentalism is a law which states that to receive grace, you must earn (work) for it by performing (working) meritorious works.

Since God saves by grace (a gift—you cannot work for a gift; a gift is free), works are not necessary for salvation.

Grace = Free

Works + Grace ≠ Free. Rather, it nullifies, or cancels grace (as Paul says above in Rom 11:6).

Therefore, you are left with the following equation:

Works + Grace cancelled = Works alone, by which you have stated, we cannot be saved.

Bill

 

[thessalonian]

(continued from post #54)

Sacramentalism is a law which states that to receive grace, you must earn (work) for it by performing (working) meritorious works.

Since God saves by grace (a gift—you cannot work for a gift; a gift is free), works are not necessary for salvation.

Grace = Free

Works + Grace ≠ Free. Rather, it nullifies, or cancels grace (as Paul says above in Rom 11:6).

Therefore, you are left with the following equation:

Works + Grace cancelled = Works alone, by which you have stated, we cannot be saved.

Bill

First of all there seems to be some confusion between works of the law and works of love. Read Is 1. It will clear that up. God says he has had enough of the very sacrifices that he commanded, i.e. sacrifices of animials. He says that what he truly desires is that they care for the widow and the orphan. Works of love. I do not believe that God ever gave up on this and in fact if you look at eph 3:20,21 you will see that he gives us the grace to do such works:

20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

I simply don’t see how you can say these works are not neccessary for entry in to heaven (though one can be “saved” without them.)

Romans 2
4] Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
5] But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

I certainly wouldn’t want to approach the pearlys having done no good in my life.

Sacrementalism has nothing to do with works. Grace is given by God in the Eucharist and in baptism and marriage. You simply are speaking of what you do not know. Trying to explain a theology you don’t understand.

Blessings

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18,

I would like to respond to your posts, but I don’t know how. I simply have a great difficulty in understanding what you write. I get the impression from other of your posts to me that your mind runs at high speed. That’s not bad, but as you transcribe it to print, I can’t follow you. So let’s you and me and slow down a bit. Rephrase your post, I don’t understand your post # until you get to the “irrationality of Calvinism…”
Matt 16_18:

What you have done is avoid the argument that I have raised - namely that Calvinist theology forces one to accept that God is the source of all evil in the world.

That I understand.

Let me ask you a philosophical question. Do you believe that God is the all-sovereign creator who made the universe and everything in it? If you do, how do you explain evil?

Proverbs 16:4
4 *The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. *

Romans 9:22
22 *What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? *

(The “What if” construction here in the Greek is a definite, ie., “But God, although willing…)

1 Peter 2:8
8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

Bill

 

[sonseeker]

Thessalonian:

First of all there seems to be some confusion between works of the law and works of love. Read Is 1. It will clear that up. God says he has had enough of the very sacrifices that he commanded, i.e. sacrifices of animials. He says that what he truly desires is that they care for the widow and the orphan. Works of love.

I agree with you 100%. In Is 1 God indeed has had enough of external rituals acts.

Please, do not misunderstand me; I am not saying stop working and have a good time. A true believer will work, and a true believer will bear much fruit (Jn 15:5). My wife and I are heavily involved in ministry at church and outside of church. My faith is shown by my works (Jas 2:18).

What I am saying is that my works cannot pay the penalty for my sin, and therefore, they cannot save me. What saves me is Christ’s atoning work on the cross, in which He bore my sins in His body, and paid the penalty for my sin (1 Cor 15:3; Gal 1:4; 1 Pet 2:24; 1 Pet 3:18). He had to die, for I am unable to any amount of work to pay the penalty; if I were able to pay the penalty, I would not need Him, but I do.

Thessalonian:

I certainly wouldn’t want to approach the pearlys having done no good in my life.

Nor would I. I want to hear, “well done good and faithful slave.” I do know that God *rewards *good works (1 Cor 3:1-15), but I also know that He is not obligated to reward them (Lk 17:7-10), and you can lose your reward, but not your salvation (1 Cor 3:1-15; 2 Jn 1:8); God rewards good works, because He is good; but the reward for good works is not salvation; salvation is by grace through faith (Eph 2:8ff).

(continued below)

 

[sonseeker]

(continued from post #58)

The Reward of Saints

1. Is from God. Ro 2:7; Col 3:24; Heb 11:6.
2. Is of grace, through faith alone. Ro 4:4,5,16; 11:6.
3. Is of God’s good pleasure. Mt 20:14,15; Lu 12:32.
4. Prepared by God. Heb 11:16.
5. Prepared by Christ. Joh 14:2.
6. As servants of Christ. Col 3:24.
7. Not on account of their merits. Ro 4:4,5.
8. Described as
   a. Being with Christ. Joh 12:26; 14:3; Php 1:23; 1Th 4:17.
   b. Beholding the face of God. Ps 17:15; Mt 5:8; Re 22:4.
   c. Beholding the glory of Christ. Joh 17:24.
   d. Being glorified with Christ. Ro 8:17,18; Col 3:4; Php 3:21; 1Jo 3:2.
   e. Sitting in judgment with Christ. Da 7:22; Mt 19:28; Lu 22:30; 1Co 6:2.
   f. Reigning with Christ. 2Ti 2:12; Re 3:21; 5:10; 20:4.
   g. Reigning for ever and ever. Re 22:5.
   h. A crown of righteousness. 2Ti 4:8.
   i. A crown of glory. 1Pe 5:4.
   j. A crown of life. Jas 1:12; Re 2:10.
   k. An incorruptible crown. 1Co 9:25.
   l. Joint heirship with Christ. Ro 8:17.
   m. Inheritance of all things. Re 21:7.
   n. Inheritance with saints in light. Ac 20:32; 26:18; Col 1:12.
   o. Inheritance eternal. Heb 9:15.
   p. Inheritance incorruptible. 1Pe 1:4.
   q. A kingdom. Mt 25:34; Lu 22:29.
   r. A kingdom immovable. Heb 12:28.
   s. Shining as the stars. Da 12:3.
   t. Everlasting light. Isa 60:19.
   u. Everlasting life. Lu 18:30; Joh 6:40; 17:2,3; Ro 2:7; 6:23; 1Jo 5:11.
   v. An enduring substance. Heb 10:34.
   w. A house eternal in the heavens. 2Co 5:1.
   x. A city which had foundation. Heb 11:10.
   y. Entering into the joy of the Lord. Mt 25:21; Heb 12:2.
   z. Rest. Heb 4:9; Re 14:13.
   A. Fulness of joy. Ps 16:11.
   B. The prize of the high calling of God in Christ. Php 3:14.
   C. Treasure in heaven. Mt 19:21; Lu 12:33.
   D. An eternal weight of glory. 2Co 4:17.
9. Is great. Mt 5:12; Lu 6:35; Heb 10:35.
10. Is full. 2Jo 1:8.
11. Is sure. Pr 11:18.
12. Is satisfying. Ps 17:15.
13. Is inestimable. Isa 64:4; 1Co 2:9.
14. Saints may feel confident of. Ps 73:24; Isa 25:8,9; 2Co 5:1; 2 Ti 4:8.
15. Hope of, a cause of rejoicing. Ro 5:2.
16. Be careful not to lose. 2Jo 1:8.
17. The prospect of, should lead to
    a. Diligence. 2Jo 1:8.
    b. Pressing forward. Php 3:14.
    c. Enduring suffering for Christ. 2Co 4:16-18; Heb 11:26.
    d. Faithfulness to death. Re 2:10.
18. Present afflictions not to be compared with. Ro 8:18; 2Co 5:17.
19. Shall be given at the second coming of Christ. Mt 16:27; Re 22:12.

Notice that salvation is not mentioned as a reward; salvation is a gift.

Bill

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

I would like to respond to your posts, but I don’t know how. I simply have a great difficulty in understanding what you write. I get the impression from other of your posts to me that your mind runs at high speed.

Quote the specific sentence(s) that you cannot understand, and state what it is that you are struggling to grasp. If you do that, I will try to clarify what I have written until you grasp the point I am making.

Now let me ask you some direct questions. Do you believe that you have free will? Do you believe that you can choose to be disobedient to God’s perfect will?

Let me ask you a philosophical question. Do you believe that God is the all-sovereign creator who made the universe and everything in it?

Yes, of course.

If you do, how do you explain evil?

How is this question connected to your first question? Evil is not something created, for unlike the good, evil can have no existence in and of itself. God does not create evil, and God is not the source of evil, for God is light, and in him is no darkness.

Evil is always the result of angels or men being disobedient to God by their abuse of the good that God has created.

By an act of God’s sovereign will, God has decreed that angels and men are to possess free will, and their free will makes angels and men agents of free cause. God allows angels and men to exercise their free will by choosing to be disobedient to him, but that in no way affects God’s sovereignty over all creation, for God has made it clear that disobedience to him results in just punishment. God will exercise his sovereignty over all creation at the final judgement when he will mete out just punishment to the unrepentant angels and unrepentant men.

Calvinism collapses in on itself when we examine free will and the Fall. Adam and Eve were not created in a state of total depravity, for God did not, and cannot, create evil. Adam and Eve were created in the grace of original justice, and they were given the freedom to choose to either be obedient or disobedient to God’s explicit commandment that Adam and Eve were to avoid eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve chose to be disobedient to God while they were in a state of grace. This proves that it is entirely possible for men and women to be in a state of grace, and then to freely choose to be disobedient to God. Which means that men and women can choose to sin and fall from a state of grace. This is what Catholicism teaches, and this is what OSAS believing Calvinists deny.