Why should Catholics Abhore OSAS?

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker

Please answer this question:

You said that it is impossible for Adam to do anything other than God’s perfect will. Therefore, if Adam was disobedient ot God, then it was God’s perfect will for Adam to be disobedient.

What does a Calvinist mean when the say Adam committed a “sin” when Calvinists beleive that Adam was only following God’s perfect will in being disobedient to God?

 

[thessalonian]

Another point Matt. Sin is not good. God saw all that he had made and behold it was very good. Therefore if God made man that he had to sin, the Bible contradicts itself. If sin is the will of God then God is not good.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

No, I am not an “Arminian”, nor a libertarian. I am a Catholic and a sane person that believes that he can make moral choices in this life. I can sin if I choose to sin.

I didn’t avoid your question. I explicitly said that I believe that God is sovereign over all creation.I stand corrected, and I believe all that you have said about yourself above.
Matt 16_18:

Certainly I can choose to poison myself and get sick. But that would be a moral

choice, a choice not to take care of the temple that God has given me. Our free will is exercised in our moral choices. Obviously if I choose to jump off a building, I cannot exercise my free will over that law of gravity. I am subject to the physical laws of nature, but I am free as a Christian to obey or disobey the moral laws of God. I can CHOOSE to be obedient or disobedient to the moral laws of God because I have free will.You say, “our free will is exercised in our moral choices…I cannot exercise my free will over that law of gravity.” Then you believe that your “free will” is limited to moral choices; If your will is limited, then it is not truly free. I‘ll wait for your response to that statement before elaborating on “free will.”
Matt 16_18:

You said that it is impossible for Adam to do anything other than God’s perfect will. Therefore, if Adam was disobedient ot[sic] God, then it was God’s perfect will for Adam to be disobedient.

You are stating that God has a “perfect will.” From that I will proceed on the assumption that you believe that there is only one will within God. I disagree with that.

The word “will” as applied to God in scripture does not always have the same connotation. It may denote (1) the whole moral nature of God, including such attributes as love, holiness, etc.; (2) the will of self-determination: the power to determine self to a course of action, or plan; (3) the result of that activity, ie., the predetermined plan or purpose; (4) the power to execute the plan and bring it to realization (omnipotence); (5) the rule of life laid down for the rational creatures.

There are distinctions within the will of God. For brevity, I will name them now as (1) the decretive (secret) will (what you refer to as His “perfect will”); (2) the perceptive (revealed) will. The former is that will of God by which He purposes or decrees what will come to pass, either by direct causal action, or by the permitting of the action through the unrestrained agency of His rational creatures. The latter is the rule of life laid down by God indicating the responsibilities He enjoins upon them. The former is always accomplished, the latter is often disobeyed. The basis of the distinction is found in Dt. 29:29. This “secret” will is mentioned in Ps 115:3; Dan 4:17,25,32,35; Rom 9:18,19; 11:33,34; Eph 1:5, 9, 11); His revealed will is seen in Mt. 7:21; 12:50; Jn 4:34 etc. It is said of the latter that is not far from us (Dt 30:14; Rom10:8). The secret will pertains to all things which God wills either to effect or permit, and which are absolutely fixed.

God marks out the path of all of His rational creatures; God determines their freedom, yet His will controls their actions. The Bible speaks of the freedom of God’s will in absolute terms, (Job 11:10; 33:13; Ps 115:3; Pro 21:1; Isa 10:15; 29:16; 45:9; Ezra 6:22; Mt 20:15; Rom 9:15-18,20,21; 1 Cor 12:11; Rev 4:11 etc.

Therefore, Adam obeyed God’s Decretive (secret) will, while he disobeyed God’s Perceptive (revealed) will: from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat.

(continued below)

 

[sonseeker]

(continued from post #83)

Did God consult with His creatures concerning the desires of their free will before sending a flood upon them to destroy them? Did He violate their free will to continue living a life of sin?

Bill

 

[Matt16_18]

thessalonian:

Another point Matt. Sin is not good. God saw all that he had made and behold it was very good. Therefore if God made man that he had to sin, the Bible contradicts itself. If sin is the will of God then God is not good.

Absolutely. If sin is the will of God, then God is not good. The Calvinists are teaching that sin IS the perfect will of God for the damned, and that is why Calvinism teaches blasphemy, because Calvinists are teaching that God wills evil.

This is why Catholics must abhor Calvinism.

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

You say, “our free will is exercised in our moral choices…I cannot exercise my free will over that law of gravity.” Then you believe that your “free will” is limited to moral choices; If your will is limited, then it is not truly free. I‘ll wait for your response to that statement before elaborating on “free will.”

My response is to say that it is utter nonsense to say that I have no free will because I cannot freely choose to defy the law of gravity – “if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” (Jn 8:36). Freedom in Christ is not freedom from the law of gravity. Freedom in Christ is freedom from the bondage to sin.

The Catholic Church has never taught that free will means that we have absolute freedom in every aspect of life - that free will means that we can become, say, tree frogs or unicorns if we will it. Having free will means that we have the freedom to reject the grace of God and to violate the moral commandments of God. If we choose to walk the path that leads to destruction, we are free to walk that path.

You are stating that God has a “perfect will.”

Yes I am. God is perfect; therefore his will is perfect.

From that I will proceed on the assumption that you believe that there is only one will within God. I disagree with that.

God’s perfect will is never in conflict with itself, just as the justice of God is not in conflict with the mercy of God.

The word “will” as applied to God in scripture does not always have the same connotation.

That is correct, and that is why Catholics speak of God’s perfect will, and God’s permissive will. God’s perfect will for Adam was for Adam to be obedient. God’s permissive will was to allow Adam to exercise his gift of free will for a choice of either being obedient or disobedient.

God is sovereign, and if he wants to give humans the freedom to be disobedient then so be it. God is free to do what he wills, and he willed to grant man that freedom. God can also punish us if we make the choice to be disobedient because he is sovereign over all creation. Having free will in no way denies that God is sovereign over all creation. The only reason that we have free will is because God IS sovereign over all creation!

When we sin, it is because God allows us to be disobedient, it is not because God wants us to be disobedient. God is all holy. God is pure love. God NEVER wills that a man commit sin. To assert otherwise is to blaspheme God who is all holy and all good.

God marks out the path of all of His rational creatures; God determines their freedom, yet His will controls their actions.

God is not a vindictive puppet master that is pulling the stings of his human meat puppets. If a Christian is sinning, it is not because God wills for the Christian to sin. Again, you are making God to be the source and cause of evil, which is blasphemy.

Therefore, Adam obeyed God’s Decretive (secret) will, while he disobeyed God’s Perceptive (revealed) will …

All you are saying is that even though God explicitly told Adam not to be disobedient, he secretly willed for Adam to be disobedient. You have pumped out a lot of bafflegab without ever answering my question, so I will ask you again:

What does a Calvinist mean when they say Adam committed a “sin”, when Calvinists believe that Adam was only following God’s perfect (secret) will in being disobedient to God?

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

What does a Calvinist mean when they say Adam committed a “sin”, when Calvinists believe that Adam was only following God’s perfect (secret) will in being disobedient to God?

Adam deliberately chose to disobey (1 Tim 2:14). Adam’s will is not in dispute here. Clearly Adam had a will significantly different from the one which you and I possess. He had the ability to chose to do sin, and, more importantly, to choose not to sin. As a result of his disobedience, our ability to choose not to sin has been killed (Rom 7:11); and so was Adam’s after he fell.
Matt 16_18:

My response is to say that it is utter nonsense to say that I have no free will because I cannot freely choose to defy the law of gravity – “if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” (Jn 8:36). Freedom in Christ is not freedom from the law of gravity. Freedom in Christ is freedom from the bondage to sin

.In a previous post you “limited” your “free will” to moral choices; now you speak of a will that is in “bondage” to sin.

***The Catholic Church has never taught that free will means that we have absolute freedom ***

in every aspect of life - that free will means that we can become, say, tree frogs or unicorns if we will it. Having free will means that we have the freedom to reject the grace of God and to violate the moral commandments of God. If we choose to walk the path that leads to destruction, we are free to walk that path.You have “limited” your “free will,” and you state that it is in “bondage,” to sin, and then say that the CC has never taught that “free will” means “absolutely free.” That has been my assertion from the beginning; we are in agreement that our will is not “free” to do whatever it chooses. I clearly made that point, and I provided scriptural evidence to support it in my previous post which I again post here:

Sonseeker:

God marks out the path of all of His rational creatures; ***God determines their freedom, yet His will controls their actions. ***

The Bible speaks of the freedom of God’s will in absolute terms, (Job 11:10; 33:13; Ps 115:3; Pro 21:1; Isa 10:15; 29:16; 45:9; Ezra 6:22; Mt 20:15; Rom 9:15-18,20,21; 1 Cor 12:11; Rev 4:11 etc.As you stated above, a “will ‘limited’ to moral choices, and that is in ‘bondage to sin,’ and that the CC teaches is not ‘absolutely free,’ is not a “free will.” Do you agree?

While ignoring what I have presented, you continue bafflegabing about God’s “allowing” and “permitting.” To which bafflegab I will add that He controls; further, I have provided support for that. (See above and below).

You say:
Matt 16_18:

God is not a vindictive puppet master that is pulling the stings of his human meat puppets. If a Christian is sinning, it is not because God wills for the Christian to sin. Again, you are making God to be the source and cause of evil, which is blasphemy.

I agree that God is not a vindictive puppet master, but He does “pull strings.” Do deny that is blasphemy. Read Is 10, in which God brings Assyria against Israel to punish them. That is not vindictive; it is justice. So too, is the consignment of sinners to destruction justice.

(continued below)

 

[sonseeker]

(continued from post #87)

I cited other verses to show that God “pulls strings.”

I’ll list them again: (Job 11:10; 33:13; Ps 115:3; Pro 21:1; Isa 10:15; 29:16; 45:9; Ezra 6:22; Mt 20:15; Rom 9:15-18,20,21; 1 Cor 12:11; Rev 4:11 etc.

With the denial that God “pulls strings,” He is reduced to impotency, and contingency; He loses all self-determination. Now, we have the creature raised to power, and he is self-determining. God did not create His creation for you; He created for His Son (Col 1:16).

Your theology is unbiblical; it makes God impotently contingent upon the whim of His self-determined creature. Bafflegab!

Tell me—how is it that that a puny impotent creator has any idea what will happen in His creation? Please answer that question.

Bill

 

[Ignatius]

sonseeker:

Bill

sonseeker, Let us see what Holy Scripture says about it.
Can you please answer these questions please?

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
“If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”
“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses

1 Corinthians 11:32
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)

2 Timothy 2:12
“If we disown him, he will also disown us.”
Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Revelation 22:14, 19
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”
Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Timothy 3:6
“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”
Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?

Galatians 5:19-20
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Romans 11:22
“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”
Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”
Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Hebrews 4:1, 11
“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”
Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

 

[thessalonian]

sonseeker

Your theology is unbiblical; it makes God impotently contingent upon the whim of His self-determined creature. Bafflegab!

Bafflegab???

Tell me—how is it that that a puny impotent creator has any idea what will happen in His creation? Please answer that question. "

Does the car maker know what will happen if oil is not put in the crankcase of the car. No, he knows full well that the engine will be damaged. Perhaps beyond repair.

The point, God knows how creation works and has set it up such that when we go against his will it is us that is broken. To those who except his chastisement, they return to him. Those who do not are destroyed in the evil life they have chosen. Thus when one aligns himself with nature and God he perseveres in grace. But what is really interesting is that those who choose evil actually work toward the good of his saints. That is why God wins in the end. It is not he that is our whims but we are under his power by the laws of the nature that he created.

Blessings

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

Therefore, Adam obeyed God’s Decretive (secret) will, while he disobeyed God’s Perceptive (revealed) will …

This implies that the God of Calvinism is a trickster. God explicitly tells Adam to be obedient, but then he has a “secret will” that forces Adam to be disobedient. And worse than that deceitful trickery, God punishes Adam for being disobedient. How is that just? How can you take comfort in worshipping such a monstrous God? I am not really interested in winning an argument with you - I would really like to see you worship the true God, the God that is all holy and all good.

Adam deliberately chose to disobey (1 Tim 2:14). Adam’s will is not in dispute here. Clearly Adam had a will significantly different from the one which you and I possess.

It is not true that as a Christian that I have a will that is significantly different than Adam’s. I am actually in a higher state of grace as a Christian than Adam was before he fell.

It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. First you say that God’s secret will for Adam was to be disobedient, and that is why Adam was disobedient. Then you say that Adam deliberately chose to commit sin. Which is it? Was Adam disobedient because he chose to be disobedient, or did God’s secret will force Adam to be disobedient? You can’t have it both ways.

He had the ability to chose to do sin, and, more importantly, to choose not to sin.

As I said, you are contradicting yourself, for now you are saying that Adam could choose to be disobedient.

No Calvinist believes that Adam was created in a totally depraved state. Therefore, you must acknowledge that Adam was in a state of grace when he chose to commit sin. Are not repentant Christians also in a state if grace? Of course they are. As Adam was in a state of grace when he chose to commit sin, so also can a Christian be in a state of grace and choose to commit sin.

As a result of his disobedience, our ability to choose not to sin has been killed (Rom 7:11); and so was Adam’s after he fell.

Both Adam and the progeny of Adam were wounded because of Adam’s sin. The Catholic Church does indeed teach that as a consequence of the Fall, the children of the wrath are incapable of living lives that are wholly pleasing to God. That is not to say, however, that the Catholic Church teaches that non-Christians are totally depraved, for no sane person that observes the world can believe such a thing. Non-Christians are not totally depraved, but they are also not capable of living lives of Christian perfection.

Pelagius taught that men were capable of living lives of Christian perfection out of human effort alone. Pelagius denied that Adam’s sin had an effect on the children of Adam. The Catholic Church teaches that Pelagianism is heresy.

In a previous post you “limited” your “free will” to moral choices; now you speak of a will that is in “bondage” to sin.

Free will IS limited to the moral choices. I had to make that point because you were setting up a straw man argument that to believe in free will, I had to believe that I am capable of defying the law of gravity.

Non-Christians are indeed living in bondage to sin. This is Catholic doctrine.

You have “limited” your “free will,” and you state that it is in “bondage,” to sin, and then say that the CC has never taught that “free will” means “absolutely free.”

No, I didn’t say MY free will is in bondage to sin, because it isn’t. I am a Christian, and I have been set free from the bondage to sin. If you don’t believe that Christ has set you free from the bondage to sin, then you are not a Christian, and you have no saving faith.

With the denial that God “pulls strings,” He is reduced to impotency, and contingency; He loses all self-determination.

Am I supposed to take this seriously? If I choose to sin, God is not reduced to impotency. God can allow me to be disobedient to his perfect will - and he does. But if I refuse to repent, God is not turned into an impotent wimp that is incapable of punishing me!

 

[sonseeker]

Ignatius:

sonseeker, Let us see what Holy Scripture says about it.

Your test questions show that you do not understand what Holy Scripture says. I will instruct you.

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
“If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”
“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

VV21-22: If a wicked mans turns. This cast involves an unjust person turning to righteousness. He received a clean slate in forgiveness (v22) and spiritual life forever.

VV24 ***a righteous man turns. ***The next scenario is a righteous man turning to a life of sin. His former, apparent righteousness was not genuine (cf 1 Jn 2:19), and God did not remember it as a valid expression of faith.

1 Corinthians 11:32
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”

VV32: Believers are kept from being consigned to hell, not only by divine decree, but by divine intervention. The Lord chastens to drive His people back to righteous behavior and even sends death to some in the church (v 30) to remove them before they could fall away (cf Jude 24).

2 Timothy 2:12 (you missed half the verse, God is blessing you by this).
“If we disown him, he will also disown us.”

---

***Endure. ***Believers who persevere give evidence of the genuineness of their faith (cf Mt 10:22; Jn 8:31; Rom 2:7; Col1:23). Reign with Him. In His future eternal kingdom (Rev 1:6; 5:10; 20:4,6). ***If we deny Him, He also will deny us. ***This speaks of a final, permanent denial, such as that of an apostate (cf 1 Tim 1:19), not the temporary failure of a true believer like Peter (Mt 26:69-75). Those who so deny Christ give evidence that they never truly belonged to Him (1 Jn 2:19) and face the fearful reality of one day being denied by Him (Mt 10:33).

Revelation 22:14, 19
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

(continued below)

 

[sonseeker]

(continued from post #92)

1 Timothy 3:6
“[A **potential bishop must not be] Boy I’ll say. The Greek word used here is neofutoV (neophytes), a neophyte—a very DISTANT potential wouldn’t you say? Aren’t you glad I’m here to explain things to you?
**
*a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”

---

V6: ***not a novice, lest…puffed up with pride. ***Putting a new convert into a leadership role would tempt him to pride. Elders, therefore, are to be drawn from the spiritually mature men of the congregation. ***Fall into the same condemnation as the devil. ***Satan’s condemnation was due to pride over his position. It resulted in his fall from honor and authority (Is 14:12-14; Ezek 28:11-19; cf Pro 16:18). The same kind of fall and judgment could easily happen to a new and weak believer put in a position of spiritual leadership.

2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

V20: ***escaped the pollutions of the world. ****Pollutions *has the idea of putrid or poisonous vapors. Morally, the world gives off a deadly influence. Peter notes that at some point in time, these false teachers and their followers wanted to escape the moral contamination of the world system and sought religion, even Jesus Christ (on their terms, not His; see v 1 of this chapter). But these false teachers had never genuinely been converted to Christ. They heard the true gospel and moved toward it, but then rejected the Christ of that gospel. That is apostasy, like the people of Heb 10:26, 27. Their last end is far worse then the first (for examples of apostasy, see Lk 11:24-26; 12:47, 48; 1 Cor 10:1-12; Heb 3:12-18; 6:6; 10:26, 38ff; 1 Jn 2:19; Jude 4-6).

Galatians 5:19-20
*“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

---

V19: ***obvious. ***The flesh manifests itself in obvious and certain ways. Sexual immorality. The Greek word is porneia (porneia), from which the English word pornography comes. It refers to all illicit sexual activity, including (but not limited to) adultery, premarital sex, homosexuality, bestiality, incest, and prostitution. ***Debauchery. ***The word originally referred to any excessive behavior or lack of restraint, but eventually became associated with sexual excess and indulgence.

V20: ***witchcraft. ***The Greek work farmakeia (pharmakeia), from which the English word pharmacy comes, originally referred to medicines in general, but eventually only to mood-altering and mind-altering drugs, as well as the occult, witchcraft, and magic. Many pagan religious practices required the use of these drugs to aid in communication with deities. Discord…jealousies. Many of these sins manifested in the area of human relationships have to do with some form of anger. *Hatred *results in contention. Jealousies (hateful resentment) result in “fits of rage” the rest represent animosity between individuals and groups.

(continued below)

 

[sonseeker]

(continued from post #93)

Romans 11:22
“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

V22: ***consider…the kindness and sternness. ***All of God’s attributes work in harmony; there is no conflict between His goodness and love, and His justice and wrath. Those who accept His gracious offer of salvation experience His goodness (2:4); those who reject it experience His severity (2:5). ***Those who fell. ***The unbelieving Jews described in vv12-22. “Fell” translates a Greek word meaning “to fall so as to be completely ruined.” Those who reject God’s offer of salvation bring upon themselves utter spiritual ruin. ***Provided that you continue. ***Genuine saving faith always perseveres (cf Jn 8:31; 15:5, 6; Col1:22, 23; Heb 3:12-14; 4:11; 1 Jn 2:19). ***Cut off. ***God will deal swiftly and severely with those who reject Him.

1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”

V2: ***…you have believed in vain. ***By this qualifying statement, Paul recognized and called to their attention that some may have had a shallow, non-saving faith (see Mt 7:13, 14, 22-27; 13:24-30, 34-43, 47-50; 25:1-30). Some believed only as the demons believed (Jas 2:19), i.e., they were convinced the gospel was true, but had no love for God, Christ, and righteousness. True believers “hold firmly” to the gospel (cf Jn 8:31; 2 Cor 13:5; 1 Jn 2:24; 2 Jn 8).

Hebrews 4:1, 11
“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”
**

V1: ***promise. ***This is the first use of this important in Hebrews. The content of this promise is defined as “entering His rest.” ***His rest. ***This is the rest which God gives (everything connected with salvation, rest, etc., is from God); that is why He calls it “My rest” (Ps 95:11, see also Heb 3:11) and “His rest.” For believers, God’s rest includes His peace, confidence of salvation, reliance on His strength, and assurance of a future heavenly home (cf Mt 11:29). ***Fallen short. ***With referential fear they are to examine their own condition (cf 1 Cor 10:12; 2 Cor 13:5) and to actively press for commitment on the part of others (cf Jude 23).

Hope that helps you to understand what’s being said. (Stay away from making tests until you understand these things better).

Bill

 

[thessalonian]

{“VV24 ***a righteous man turns. ***The next scenario is a righteous man turning to a life of sin. His former, apparent righteousness was not genuine (cf 1 Jn 2:19), and God did not remember it as a valid expression of faith.”{

I don’t see the word apparent anywhere in that verse. If he was unrighteous then he didn’t turn. Like the rest of your post OSAS superceeds everything and becomes the lense by which you twist and distort the plain text of scripture. Very sad.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

This implies that the God of Calvinism is a trickster. God explicitly tells Adam to be obedient, but then he has a “secret will” that forces Adam to be disobedient. And worse than that deceitful trickery, God punishes Adam for being disobedient.

God is not a trickster, and He does have a “secret will.” I have supported that by scripture (Dt 29:29).
Matt 16_18:

As I said, you are contradicting yourself, for now you are saying that Adam could choose to be disobedient.

I have always said that Adam was disobedient to God, and also said that he deliberately chose to be so, and I supported that by scripture (1 Tim 2:14).
Matt 16_18:

No Calvinist believes that Adam was created in a totally depraved state.

You are correct, no Calvinist believes that Adam was created totally depraved.
Matt 16_18:

Therefore, you must acknowledge that Adam was in a state of grace when he chose to commit sin.

I have always believed that Adam was in a state of grace when he sinned. I stated to you before, all men, even the unregenerate, are in a state of grace; the very fact that are breathing proves that point, and the scripture tells us He sends rain on the earth (Job 5:10), so that even the wicked may eat (Acts 14:17); that is grace.
Matt 16_18:

Are not repentant Christians also in a state if grace? Of course they are. As Adam was in a state of grace when he chose to commit sin, so also can a Christian be in a state of grace and choose to commit sin.

(See preceding response).
Matt 16_18:

Both Adam and the progeny of Adam were wounded because of Adam’s sin.

Adam’s fall did more than wound his progeny. It killed them; they are dead (Rom 7:11; Eph 2:1). Have you ever tried to get someone who is dead to do something? They are totally unresponsive. According to scripture, so is the sinner toward God. You continue to ignore scripture.
Matt 16_18:

Pelagius taught that men were capable of living lives of Christian perfection out of human effort alone. Pelagius denied that Adam’s sin had an effect on the children of Adam. The Catholic Church teaches that Pelagianism is heresy.

I do not know why you have made this statement. Pelagianism has another form called “semi-pelagianism,” which entails Christ + any work said to merit/earn salvation.
Matt 16_18:

Am I supposed to take this seriously? If I choose to sin, God is not reduced to impotency. God can allow me to be disobedient to his perfect will - and he does. But if I refuse to repent, God is not turned into an impotent wimp that is incapable of punishing me!

Again, you misread. I said nothing about your sinning reducing God to impotency. I said, “With the denial that God “pulls strings,” He is reduced to impotency, and contingency; He loses all self-determination.” That is the God you espouse by your following statement: “God is not a…puppet master that is pulling the stings of his human meat puppets.” Three times I have listed scripture showing you that God determines His creatures freedom, and His will controls their actions. I’ll not list the stated scriptures again, as you are intent on ignoring the scripture.
Matt 16_18:

It is not true that as a Christian that I have a will that is significantly different than Adam’s. I am actually in a higher state of grace as a Christian than Adam was before he fell.

That is pride.

You were conceived in sin (Ps 51), was Adam? You are estranged from the womb, and speak lies and go astray from birth (Ps 58:3). According to scripture even a believer still has a sin nature (Rom 7:14-25). Before Adam fell he did not have a sin nature.

The only ones in a better state of grace than Adam are the redeemed. They know that their salvation is in God’s hand, and not their own. They have the Gospel of Hope; they have a confident assurance, and a confident hope; they understand that once they are saved, they are always saved. They are kept by God (Rom 16:25; Jude 24, etc.).

By your own admission, you have no such hope.

Bill

 

[thessalonian]

Sonseeker,

Did the servant in Luke 12 have God fooled the first time around when he found him doing right but then when he delayed “THAT SAME SERVANT” began to get drunk and beat the slaves and he was treated as an “UNBELIEVER”. So I suppose you are going to say that, yes he was unrighteous but God couldn’t tell when he came and the man was behaving rightly so he laid a trap and delayed his coming so that he could tell.

“Before Adam fell he did not have a sin nature.”

Yet you say we cannot fall. That our salvation is assured.

Blessings

 

[sonseeker]

{“VV24 ***a righteous man turns. ***The next scenario is a righteous man turning to a life of sin. His former, apparent righteousness was not genuine (cf 1 Jn 2:19), and God did not remember it as a valid expression of faith.”{

I don’t see the word apparent anywhere in that verse. If he was unrighteous then he didn’t turn. Like the rest of your post OSAS superceeds everything and becomes the lense by which you twist and distort the plain text of scripture. Very sad.

And what lens do you use?

 

[sonseeker]

thessalonian:

sonseeker

Bafflegab???

Tell me—how is it that that a puny impotent creator has any idea what will happen in His creation? Please answer that question. "

Does the car maker know what will happen if oil is not put in the crankcase of the car. No, he knows full well that the engine will be damaged. Perhaps beyond repair.

The point, God knows how creation works and has set it up such that when we go against his will it is us that is broken. To those who except his chastisement, they return to him. Those who do not are destroyed in the evil life they have chosen. Thus when one aligns himself with nature and God he perseveres in grace. But what is really interesting is that those who choose evil actually work toward the good of his saints. That is why God wins in the end. It is not he that is our whims but we are under his power by the laws of the nature that he created.

Blessings

I don’t know how what you say applies to what I posted.

Bill

 

[sonseeker]

thessalonian:

Sonseeker,

So I suppose you are going to say that, yes he was unrighteous but God couldn’t tell when he came and the man was behaving rightly so he laid a trap and delayed his coming so that he could tell.

Why don’t you stop telling me what think I would say, and try telling me what you mean. As I have told you at other times, I do not understand your posts.

Bill