Why should Catholics Abhore OSAS?

[RyanL]

Bill,

1. I have been following this thread, and you have not “won”. Your completely unfounded **gloating **is not christian. If that is what you think is godly, I do not want to know your “god”.
2. “You must repent of your sins, put aside your idols, and put your faith and trust in Christ, and Him alone, or you are not saved.”
   • I count 3 works here, and a fourth implicitly.
     a. Repent
     b. Put aside idols
     c. Put your faith and trust in Christ
     d. Prayer (implicit) - this is how you communicate your aforementioned works to God.
     Does this mean you now reject “Faith Alone”?
3. " The problem with your theology, and your religion is that it prohibits people from being saved."

• I’m sorry…that sounded like you have made a devine judgement on the state of my soul. What makes you think you’re entitled to judge that?

1. " I have discharged my duty, and I am not guilty of your blood"

• I remember someone else who said that…who was it…OH, YEAH, PONTIUS PILOT!

Prayerfully,
RyanL

 

[john_ennis]

Boy! So much disagreement among people who seem to know so much of the Bible! If ONLY the Holy Spirit had given us some way of knowing whether we could be sure our own interpretation was not in error.
If only…

How thoughtless of Him.

Peace.
John

 

[thessalonian]

I have dismantled your idea on human free will, destroyed your thelogy relating to God’s Sovereignty and will. Even after I have beaten you and left you sobbing in the dust, you continue to claim victory.

You have shown yourself to be nothing but a buffoon who is full of hot air and invective.

You are a clanging bell, a screeching trumpet, a broken record. When you encounter someone who is your superior in intellect, your argument, and you fall apart.

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

This coming from a guy who couldn’t understand where I was coming from with my arguement about Luke 12 and the faithful servant who later became unfaithful. I’ll bet everyone else who read that post knew how it applied.



Ryan I’ll take my rebuke now. Over easy please.

 

[RyanL]

thessalonian:

Over easy please.

tsk tsk tsk. :tsktsk:

Naughty thessalonian!

tsk tsk tsk. :tsktsk:

 

[Gracie2004]

Sonseeker…

As to your “i have beaten you” mindset…a wise man once told me that a good man never has to brag on his accomplishments, they speak for themselves…I guess that puts you in another catagory. Nothing worse than someone who constantly tries to pat himself on the back, even when he cannot see his own faults and wrongs.

You need to get a grip on that runaway ego of yours. It’s not only offensive, but it makes you look ridiculous to others.

Gracie

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

You have one argument, and one argument only …

I have more than one argument that I can use, but why bother with the more subtle arguments when you readily admit that you believe that God is the source and cause of all evil? This is the most hideous and glaring defect of your theology, and this is where we need to begin if we are going to have a real debate about Catholicism vs. OSAS-Calvinism. We are on two side of a very vast chasm, and I have a hard time imagining what could divide us any further than your belief that God is the cause of all that is evil, depraved, and sick in the world.

When you encounter someone who is your superior in intellect, your argument, and you fall apart.

I never said that my argument required a Ph.D. in mathematical logic to follow! You have admitted that you believe that no man has free will, and you acknowledge that to maintain this belief that it is necessary to believe that God is the ultimate cause and source of all evil. An average sixth grader with no training in logic can easily follow the train of reasoning that follows - no free will in man means that God is the cause of both the good and the evil that is in the world.

Sonseeker, step back for just one moment and think about what you are saying! You are accusing the Almighty thrice Holy God of being the cause of evil. Have you no fear of the Lord? I can’t see how it is possible to commit any greater blasphemy against God than this.

If God is the cause of evil, then you are saying that Jesus is the cause of evil! If you believe that Jesus is responsible for causing every sin that has ever been committed, or that ever will be committed, then why, oh why, did Jesus die on the cross? Your Calvinist-OSAS theology makes a mockery of the cross, and one blasphemy follows the other when you start with the belief that God is the ultimate cause of evil.

 

[Matt16_18]

john ennis:

If ONLY the Holy Spirit had given us some way of knowing whether we could be sure our own interpretation was not in error.
If only… How thoughtless of Him.

LOL. Isn’t it strange that Jesus would found a church on earth, and then leave all the future members of that church with no way of knowing with certainty if God is really the source of all that is evil in the world. But then again, if God is the source of all that is evil, then who is really the author of confusion?

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

I have more than one argument that I can use, but why bother with the more subtle arguments when you readily admit that you believe that God is the source and cause of all evil? This is the most hideous and glaring defect of your theology, and this is where we need to begin if we are going to have a real debate about Catholicism vs. OSAS-Calvinism.

I have been asking myself, for the last while, why should I continue with this “debate,” as you call it? You see the problem is my belief that God is the source and cause of all evil. That is not the problem. As I see it, the problem is one of authority. Who is authoritative in this discussion? Is it God’s word, or is it my word, or is it your word? I am not offering philosophical arguments, but scriptural arguments. You reject them, because you believe that no one can interpret scripture save for your duly appointed church teachers. That is the problem. If we are not appealing to the same authority, then we have the two of saying, “I’m right!” “No, I’m right!” “No, I’m right!” “No, I’m right!” So far, all you have done is to argue philosophically, and appeal to yourself as the authority. I am not interested in your opinion. Give me a scriptural argument.
Matt 16_18:

Sonseeker, step back for just one moment and think about what you are saying! You are accusing the Almighty thrice Holy God of being the cause of evil. Have you no fear of the Lord? I can’t see how it is possible to commit any greater blasphemy against God than this.

I am presenting what God says. Read your Bible. Re-read my posts and tell me where I err in my understanding.

If you are willing to state your more subtle arguments, go ahead. If they are merely your philosophical opinion, I will probably ignore them. The world is full of philosophical opinion on this question of evil. I’m not interested in the world’s philosophy; I’m interested in what God says about it. When I witness, I do so pre-suppositionally, not philosophically. I have neither the time, nor the desire for the philosophical wrangling of the world.

Bill

 

[A.Aaboe]

Greetings Christians!

I am a Protestant Christian…not a fundie LOL. I am also weary of many Christians claim to be Christians or followers of Christ when they show no evidence of salvation and you see no fruit of their “salvation”.

I have friends or “had” friends who told me “Im saved and born again” and there was no change in thier life. I have seen other Christians who were trully born again and WOW what a difference its like they became new people!! So remember that there are false Christians out their too, that claim to have Christ but are still as dead as a hammer.

Your friend in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. A.Aaboe

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

As I see it, the problem is one of authority. Who is authoritative in this discussion? Is it God’s word, or is it my word, or is it your word? I am not offering philosophical arguments, but scriptural arguments.

I agree that the interpretation of scriptures always is a matter that involves authority. So tell us, why should anyone accept you as an authority? You preach a strange religion about a god that is not only the source of all good, but also the source of all that is evil. Your religion may appeal to the worshippers of Kali and Shiva, but it is not a religion that has anything to do with Judaism or Christianity.

Your so-called “scriptural” arguments cease to be scriptural when you accuse God of being the source of all that is evil.

You are only giving me your opinions about what scriptures teach, and as thessalonian has so aptly observed, your opinions are formed by reading all scripture through the lens of your false assumptions about the nature of God. The thrice holy Trinity is not the center of your religion, the redemption of man by Christ from the bondage to sin is not the center of your religion - the heresy of OSAS is the center of your religion. In your religion, man is a mere meat robot that does as he is programmed to do by a capricious god – a god that maliciously predestines some men for eternal torment in hell for the “sin” of living as your god has decreed they shall live.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt16_18:

You are only giving me your opinions about what scriptures teach, and as thessalonian has so aptly observed, your opinions are formed by reading all scripture through the lens of your false assumptions about the nature of God.

There you go again; you make assertions, and you offer no support for them. Take the scripture I have presented, and show me where I err. Give me your understanding of the scripture that I have presented. If you don’t want to do that, say so; if you can’t do that, say so.

I await your correction.

Bill

 

[thessalonian]

Linus, you out there bud?

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

…you make assertions, and you offer no support for them …

I make my assertions based on what you have posted. The core of your religion can be reduced to two false beliefs:1. The omnipotent God is not only the source of all that is good; he is also the source of all that is evil.

1. Men and angels exist without free will. Men and angels only manifest in their thoughts, words, and actions what God has predestined them to manifest. You have had ample time to deny that you believe these two things, and if they are not what you believe, it is time to clearly state your beliefs once and for all.

But you don’t deny these two things, and it is like a sickness that permeates your understanding of scripture. The assertion that God is the source of evil is blasphemy, and the belief that Christians cannot freely choose to be disobedient to the perfect will of God is irreconcilable with even a cursory reading of the bible.

The foundation of your religion renders meaningless everything that true Christians believe. Why bother even discussing the mission of Christ; questions about the role of faith, hope, and charity in regards to salvation; the role of Mary and the Saints; the necessity of the church - for what does any of this matter, since in the end, the damned have been created and predestined by God for hell, and there is nothing that they can do about it.

 

[thessalonian]

The foundation of your religion renders meaningless everything that true Christians believe. Why bother even discussing the mission of Christ; questions about the role of faith, hope, and charity in regards to salvation; the role of Mary and the Saints; the necessity of the church - for what does any of this matter, since in the end, the damned have been created and predestined by God for hell, and there is nothing that they can do about it.

Equals:

Matt 15
6] So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.

Hmmm make void. Well hebrews six is talking to the hebrews so it doesn’t apply to me and 1 Cor 10:2 is hypothetical since you are saved. Therefore the conditional “saved if” isn’t a condition but just a warning. And we can deny Jesus as many times as we want because we’re (like Peter) Christians. Sorry for the sarcasm folks but why can’t they see this OSAS is the doctrine of devils.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt16_18:

I make my assertions based on what you have posted.

Yes you do, and I have asked you to prove me wrong; are you going to do that, or are you going to continue making assertions?
Matt 16_18:

You have had ample time to deny that you believe these two things, and if they are not what you believe, it is time to clearly state your beliefs once and for all.

You just said in the above quote you know what I believe based on what I have posted; prove that I am wrong.
Matt 16_18:

The assertion that God is the source of evil is blasphemy, and the belief that Christians cannot freely choose to be disobedient to the perfect will of God is irreconcilable with even a cursory reading of the bible.

I’m still waiting for your proof.
Matt 16_18:

The foundation of your religion renders meaningless everything that true Christians believe. Why bother even discussing the mission of Christ; questions about the role of faith, hope, and charity in regards to salvation; the role of Mary and the Saints; the necessity of the church - for what does any of this matter, since in the end, the damned have been created and predestined by God for hell, and there is nothing that they can do about it.

Yea, why bother? That’s a copout. So far you are only capable of asserting, and you have not proven a thing.

I am still awaiting your correction.

Bill

 

[Matt16_18]

thessalonian:

… we can deny Jesus as many times as we want

To be fair to sonseeker, I think you are confusing his OSAS-Calvinism with the other version of OSAS, the antinomian version that is typically confessed by Southern Baptists.

The theology of antinomian OSAS teaches that men do indeed have free will. The fatal flaw of antinomian OSAS is a belief that once a man is “saved”, that there is no sin that the saved man could commit that would cause him to be damned. It logically follows that under antinomian OSAS that a “saved” man could deny Jesus and still enter heaven. Heck, the “saved” man could worship Satan and still enter heaven, since there is no sin that he could commit that would cause him to be damned.

To sonseeker, this is version of OSAS is “Arminianism”, and he correctly believes that this version of OSAS is heresy. Those who confess sonseeker’s version of OSAS would never accept that a Christian could live like a devil, since that would prove that this person is not one of the elect. The fatal flaw of sonseeker’s version of OSAS is that the elect do not have free will. The elect are forced to live holy lives because of irresistible grace, and those that are predestined for heaven will live holy lives because they have no choice in the matter.

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

You just said in the above quote you know what I believe based on what I have posted; prove that I am wrong.

I note that you don’t disagree with what I assert about the two core doctrines of your religion. But how do you expect me to prove that “God is light and in him is no darkness at all”? (1John 1:5). I know that this is true because I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, and if you do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you will never understand why saying that God is the source of all evil is blasphemy.

Pray to God that you might receive the Holy Spirit, for only by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit will you understand the truth that John testifies to, i.e. that there is no darkness at all in God.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

I note that you don’t

disagree with what I assert about the two core doctrines of your religion.Those aren’t exactly the core doctrines. At the core are the trinity, the deity of Christ, and His incarnation, death, burial, and resurrection, and others; however, I don’t dispute the other two.
Matt 16_18:

But how do you expect me to prove that “God is light and in him is no darkness at all”? (1John 1:5).

When you quote the scripture, you don’t have to prove what it says. I know what it says. I may make you work to prove that what you say it means, is what it means, however.

Yes, God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. Light being a synonym for “good,” and darkness being a synonym for “bad, evil, sin” etc. That verse says that within God’s essence, there is only goodness, and John further emphasizes that by adding, in negative form, what is not in God: “no darkness at all.” The language speaks to God’s internal essence, or His being. But does that negate God’s having anything to do with evil? Is He able to be goodness internally, and causal to evil externally?

In a C.S. Lewis quote, that you provided, Lewis referred to evil as a “thing,” and he said that evil is empowered by good.

With that in mind, what are these next verses saying?

Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (or consist, or are upheld, etc.)

Hebrews 1:3: *And He…upholds all things by the word of His power… *

Is evil included in the “all things,” mentioned in the two verses above?

And,

Genesis 18:14: “Is anything too difficult for the Lord?..” (a rhetorical question with the expected answer, No! )

Jeremiah 32:27: “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?” (another rhetorical question with the expected answer, No! )

Matthew 19:26: And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but ***with God all things are possible.” ***(a universal positive)

Mark 10:27: Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; ***for all things are possible with God.” ***(another universal positive)

Luke 1:37: “For nothing will be impossible with God.” (a universal negative)

Is evil included in the “all things,” mentioned in the five verses above? At this point, would you concede that external causation of evil by God is at least possible?

Bill

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker

At last you are willing to publically acknowledge that you believe that:1. The omnipotent God is not only the source of all that is good; he is also the source of all that is evil.

1. Men and angels exist without free will. Men and angels only manifest in their thoughts, words, and actions what God has predestined them to manifest.

sonseeker:

That verse says that within God’s essence, there is only goodness, and John further emphasizes that by adding, in negative form, what is not in God: “no darkness at all.” The language speaks to God’s internal essence, or His being. But does that negate God’s having anything to do with evil? Is He able to be goodness internally, and causal to evil externally?

Define your terms. What exactly do you mean when you say that God is causal to evil “externally”?

To make an analogy from the Godfather, your god is like an omnipotent Don Vito Corleone, and Luca Brasi (Don Corleone’s hit man) is like Satan.

Don Corleone is a cause of both what is good and what is evil in his world. Don Corleone can will "blessings” such as expensive weddings for his children, so he is a cause of good. But when Don Vito Corleone wants a person murdered, he has his hit man Luca Brasi does the dirty work for him. Don Corleone doesn’t actually pull the trigger in the murder, but he is still guilty of the murder, because he ordered the murder to happen.

I do acknowledge my analogy is not perfect, because Luca Brasi was always free to not commit murder for Don Corleone. But Satan, in your theology, is unlike Luca Brasi, because Satan has no free will. Your god is even more guilty that Don Corleone, because your god murders through intermediaries that have no free will. Don Corleone would surely be envious of your god’s absolutely loyal and ruthlessly evil foot soldiers.

In a C.S. Lewis quote, that you provided, Lewis referred to evil as a “thing,” and he said that evil is empowered by good.

If you want to understand Lewis, please pick up a copy Mere Christianity and read it for yourself. You will see that Lewis does not believe evil is a “thing”. (Lewis also asserts in Mere Christianity that man has free will.)

At this point, would you concede that external causation of evil by God is at least possible?

I am not sure what you mean by “external causation” since you have not defined that term. But I suspect that my answer would be no, since God cannot act in contadiction to his essence. That would be to assert that God’s will is above his essence, which is aburd.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

Define your terms. What exactly do you mean when you say that God is causal to evil “externally”?What I mean is, even though we are told that God is good, and in Him is no evil, He is able to cause evil, and not violate His nature.

If you do not agree, what objections do have to that statement?

Bill