Why should gay couples be denied rights?

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Probably not the right argument to pose to a maths professor. 😉

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Homosexual pairings, on the other hand, do arise in nature, which proves they exist in conformity with natural law.

As ever, Jesse
The math professor should spend time reading up on what natural law is.

Investigation on Natural Law

The Natural Moral Law
By the way, cannibalism and fillicide exist in nature. Homosexualists like to refer to homosexual pairings of bonobos. They fail to point out that said ape species also mutilate each other. So much for looking to the animal kingdom to explain our nature.
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Probably not the right argument to pose to a maths professor. 😉

Actually, it’s just another lame analogy, as marriages are not triangles — and mathematically naive, to put it gently. It is indeed possible to construct a triangle with interior angles of 38 degrees. You just embed it into a concave space such as the interior of a cone with the proper eccentricity. You can achieve greater than 60 degrees by laying your triangle on a convex space, such as a sphere. In projective non-metric spaces, angular measure isn’t even defined, but that doesn’t prevent us from populating them with triangles. Possibly, you’ve only dealt with Euclidean planar geometries, which, just by the way, are the only place you’ll find triangles of 60 degrees, as they don’t exist in nature itself. Triangles are mathematical abstractions. They don’t arise from nature.
Ugh! You remind me of my old college roommate who would subvert every discussion to mathematics. 😉

But the logical analogy here, then, is that a triangle can be made to conform to some other definition only if it is warped. That is, if a triangle drawn perfectly on a sheet of paper (impossible I know) is simply a closed-plane shape consisting of three straight lines, and if every such shape will exhibit certain properties (such as having angles that sum to 180 degrees), then changing the nature of the shape (by warping its lines so that it fits into the interior of a cone) will also change the properties (causing it to have angles that sum to something other than 180 degrees) and thus cause it to instantiate the essence of a triangle less perfectly.

And it is precisely that triangles are mathematical abstractions that prove they do arise from the natural order of things (as opposed to merely our consciousness). We did not invent facts about triangles. We discovered them.

You are in the business of teaching mathematical truths, right? Not merely mathematical value judgments? 😉
Homosexual pairings, on the other hand, do arise in nature, which proves they exist in conformity with natural law.
As ever, Jesse
But “natural law” does not mean “occurring in nature.” It refers to the idea of being consistent with the nature of a thing. Think of it this way:

Everything in nature serves, or acts toward, or points to, some end. I have eyes so that I can see, a heart to pump blood, a voice to communicate, and so on. It is therefore good for my body parts to do these things, and bad for them not to. When people say they have a “bad heart” they mean that it is not instantiating the essence or the norm of what a heart is very well, perhaps because it pumps too fast or whatever. These aren’t value judgments, they are simply facts arising from nature, discerned by considering what end they serve.

It is likewise a norm arising from nature (specifically, from the end to which the human sexual configuration points) that the sexual faculty exists chiefly for procreation, and secondarily for unity. (Secondary because it is subordinate to the end of procreation). To be contrary to natural law simply means to act contrary to this end.

Homosexuality is simply a deficiency which inhibits the realization of this end (when acted on, at least). It may be a naturally occurring deficiency, like clubfoot; but no one would imagine clubfoot is normative, much less entitled to government sponsorship as such.

Hope that helps clarify things.
I don’t believe the Church cares who gets to visit who in hospital, nor is it necessary to pretend that a partnership between homosexuals is a marriage in order for them to be able to visit each other in hospital, there are other laws that could be passed which would not require trying to redefine marriage if that was all this is really about.
My understanding is that hospital visitation rights accrue to spouses because they are the legal next of kin and there presence may be necessary to make medical judgments should the individual become incapacitated.

Of course, it is possible for homosexual to designate his partner as his next of kin by virtue of mere contract law, I imagine. And a hospital that denies that would be in violation of that law.
 
:yawn::ehh:

Ho hum. How many threads on this same issue do we have to have before the mods will allow a specific forum for them? If they were isolated to one forum, they wouldn’t go on infecting the general topics like this.

Please, CAF, make a forum for Homosexual Topics! Then the advocates can just chat away, telling each other how correct they are, and we wouldn’t have to keep going over and over and OVER this same, stale topic!!!

:rolleyes:
 
I have worked in health care for 10 years, never seen a homosexual’s partner ever denied access to them while in the hospital. This is largely a myth. It may happen from time to time and not all of the time does it have anything to do with being gay.

I think a gay person not being allowed to see their partner is very rare and more of a politcal tool for gay rights folks than a reality.

Also, having worked in health care and health care billing it’s also largely a myth about being denied insurance coverage. Probably 90% of on insurance companies have domestic partner coverage.

Another myth is the parter cannot inherit their partner’s estate. Bull, do like the rest of us and make a will.

Another myth, custody of children. In some states a gay person could legally adopt their partner’s kids much in the same way that a step parent could. You can leave a legal document to give custody of your child to another person in case of your death.

IMO, many of these gay rights arguements are either half truths or flat lies.
 
I have had a friend dying in the hospital and his parents would not allow the person who paid for the insurance, provided food, and shelter, helped him pay for college to be at his bedside. It does happen. But a solid POA can remedy that.
 
I have had a friend dying in the hospital and his parents would not allow the person who paid for the insurance, provided food, and shelter, helped him pay for college to be at his bedside. It does happen. But a solid POA can remedy that.
Exactly. Gays act like they are having rights taken away when in fact they simply are not using the rights they do have.
 
There was a version of reciprocal benefits proposed in Oregon that the local Church leaders would have supported had it been open to all adults who were in a mutually-supporting living arrangments but could not be husband and wife, including siblings. It would have allowed adults to give each other these rights.

The gay rights advocates in Oregon rejected that. Why was it in their interest to deny those rights to adults who weren’t in a sexual relationship? Because they want more than the opportunity to exchange mutual authority within their household. They wanted recognition of their sexual relationship that will give them a status equal to heterosexual married couples. Give that to people not in a sexual relationship, and the gays feel they “lose”.

If they would stand in the way of other adults giving each other the kind of mutual authority that they want for themselves because they are so hungry for a special status of their own, then they’ve lost my sympathy. They don’t just want the rights that are beneficial to society. They are jealous to have the status of married couples.

Here are some exerpts from a letter signed by Archbishop Vlazny and Bishop Kenneth Steiner of the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon and Bishop Vasa, then-bishop of the Diocese of Baker, Oregon, talking about this issue when it was being discussed in Oregon in 2004:

“…While there is a distinction between homosexual inclination and activity, each person is a loved child of God with inherent human dignity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church declares that persons with a homosexual inclination “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” (#2358) Any hostile or violent words or acts directed at our sisters and brothers are offensive, immoral and must not be tolerated.”

“…It is not discriminatory for society to reserve the full array of marriage benefits to a married man, woman and their children. To legalize civil unions (wherein same-sex couples receive all the benefits of marriage under another name) is to adopt a public policy that, in effect, states that marriage and same-sex civil unions, although called by different names, are essentially the same and equal. They are not…”

“Through same-sex civil unions with marriage-like benefits and through the practices of artificial insemination and surrogate motherhood, society sanctions and encourages expanded experimentation on the birth of children who deliberately will be conceived and born without the benefit of having both mother and father…”

“Accordingly the Oregon Catholic Conference cannot support same-sex civil unions as supportive of the common good for all and must oppose legislative attempts to adopt such public policy in Oregon.”

“In recognition of the fact that there are many people who live together for friendship, companionship and mutual economic support, the concept of reciprocal beneficiaries, with benefits such as survivorship rights, has been advanced. Since reciprocal beneficiaries are dependent on two adults, for example a mother and daughter, being mutually supportive of each other, many people, particularly elderly parents and people with disabilities, would benefit from such a public policy. In general the Oregon Catholic Conference could support a reciprocal beneficiaries public policy as advancing the common good for a significant number of adults in society.”
 
Define rights and name a few.
Another good point, legally speaking none of these things are actually even rights. There is no legal (on the federal level) basis for any of these things being a right to anyone.
 
Except in Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, Sweden … and Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, plus Washington, D.C. … and now New York.

Religious objections to same sex marriage don’t much matter to those of us who don’t share your religion.

As ever, Jesse
Nope, it’s not marriage even in those places. Just because the law says it is doesn’t make it so. The law could say that that all humans are made of stone but that doesn’t make it true now does it?
 
First of all, there is really no such thing as a “gay” couple or a homosexual couple. People are homosexual, the entity of the partnership isn’t.

So what do you call two homosexual people who are “together”?
Hospital visitation is very rarely denied ot anyone. But is a person is worried about this, they can specify when they check in who they want to be alowed to visit or put documents in place in case of an emergency.

Not necessarily, if one isn’t a relative, especially in an an emergency.

To me, the hospital visit issue is a red herring. I have spent more time than I care to in hospitals over the last few years. No one cared who visited who. Two of my dad’s friends from church popped into the ICU an hour before my dad died. They simply asked at the desk what room he was in and came on up. No one asked who they were or if there was any relationship.

I don’t doubt there are isolated cases of hospital personnel being obnoxious but it isn’t really an issue.
What about a situation where the decision to terminate or continue life support is in play? Yes, then it does become an “issue”.

It’s easy to trivialize the problems when you have no first hand knowledge. I’ve known a couple of gay couples who have had such aforementioned problems. Best for them to prepare for such situations in advance with a lawyer, methinks, rather than complain their “rights” are being trampled upon.
 
So what do you call two homosexual people who are “together”?
Partners?
Not necessarily, if one isn’t a relative, especially in an an emergency.
If you have the documents in place, not even a relative can over ride them.
What about a situation where the decision to terminate or continue life support is in play? Yes, then it does become an “issue”.
This is why it’s so important for everyone to have advance directives and medical power of attorney documents in place. With or without documentation, these are decisions that should be made jointly by the loved ones, and not unilaterally by a single person, in my opinion.
It’s easy to trivialize the problems when you have no first hand knowledge.
I am sorry you thought I was trivializing anything or that you thought I was speaking without first-hand knowledge. Neither is true.
I’ve known a couple of gay couples who have had such aforementioned problems. Best for them to prepare for such situations in advance with a lawyer, methinks, rather than complain their “rights” are being trampled upon.
Exactly what I said. In this day and age, it is very easy to do POA documents and attorneys aren’t even necessary in most states. Anyone who wants legal privaleges extended to another, should get it all in writing.
 
No, C, not at all did I think you’re trivializing the issue for some homosexual “partners”.😉

I agree, that most if not all of those issues can be ironed out in advance; advanced directives, wills, etc, etc.

The pro-homosexual advocates use this “disparity” between legally married people and homosexual partners in a relationship as an example of how their “rights” are being trampled upon.

I think we agree that this is wrong on two (or more) levels; first, it isn’t a “right” and second, it’s not like there’s an easily available remedy as you suggested.

I would suggest that it’s no more difficult or burdensome than a heterosexual couple who chooses not to marry, but wants to have all the legal privilages that society extends to married couples. It’s simply not necessary to redefine marriage to make it “fair” for homosexual persons in a relationship to protect themselves and each other.
 
I think we agree that this is wrong on two (or more) levels; first, it isn’t a “right” and second, it’s not like there’s an easily available remedy as you suggested.

I would suggest that it’s no more difficult or burdensome than a heterosexual couple who chooses not to marry, but wants to have all the legal privilages that society extends to married couples. It’s simply not necessary to redefine marriage to make it “fair” for homosexual persons in a relationship to protect themselves and each other.
And in both cases, it isn’t like it’s a surprise that they are in a relationship that might create some complications if they face a legal issue such as the need for a life-saving medical decision.
 
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, I would never want to make it illegal for one person to visit another person in hospital, for any reason. How could this possibly affect me, the other patients, the nurses, the doctors, the secretaries, the janitors, or anyone else? Let them have their degenerate relationship, but preach to them the joys of Christ in the process. If they won’t accept the faith, we can only blame one of two parties: them for not having enough love of Christ, or ourselves for not loving enough for them.

It is not a right to have hospital visitation, in my opinion. This is a matter of compassion for fellow human beings, intimately acquainted with one another, in distress. Individual nurses and security personnel could figure this one out. As for other “rights”, it gets rather vague in our relativist dumbocratic culture. You’ll have to be more specific.
 
Bottom line is that married people sign legal documents and there are similar legal documents/contracts that are already available to homosexuals to use for the various “rights” if they care to draw them up and sign them, they do not need to be “married” to get these things.

This is not about legal rights.
 
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