Why Should God Be the Moral Authority?

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What do you mean by “means don’t contradict the end”? Do you mean to say that both the means and the end must be pleasurable? So that if the end is pleasurable but the means is not pleasurable, then the undertaking is not good?
No.

The end would be a goal of happiness/prevention of suffering. The means would be an action used to achieve this goal. It makes no sense to pursue X amount of happiness, only to use a means that will prevent an amount of happiness greater than X. In other words, the process of accomplishing the end is only good if you end up with more happiness than you started with.
 
No.

The end would be a goal of happiness/prevention of suffering. The means would be an action used to achieve this goal. It makes no sense to pursue X amount of happiness, only to use a means that will prevent an amount of happiness greater than X. In other words, the process of accomplishing the end is only good if you end up with more happiness than you started with.
Then in what instance would it occur that the means would contradict the end?
 
Hi Oreoracle,

Since I now have “official” sources for my evaluation of current humanism and relativism, I am a happy camper:extrahappy: and can get back into the discussion. Since it is Lent, I must be honest and admit I need to go back a few blocks to pick up where I was…
In the meantime, I’ll reply to your recent post.
If not, and I could guess that all that happiness was the consequence, I’d willingly accept being murdered. No, I don’t have an intrinsic right to life. Just an animalistic instinct screaming in my head, nothing more.
The animals I know instinctively do what is necessary for their life because life is important to live. Some animals are so instinctive about the importance of life that they fight and die to protect their young. I’ve spent time in Alaska and the one thing not to do is to startle a mother bear with her cubs. When I did meet a mother and cubs crossing the road ahead of me, you can bet that my intrinsic right to life kicked in.

As far as I am concerned, that screaming in your head is evidence of the objective moral value that life is sacred. Furthermore, I’m yielding to your idea that emotions can be involved in decision making. I know mine were that day along with adrenalin.
So long as the means don’t contradict the end, and we have good reason to believe this good will occur.
So long as the means don’t contradict the end — Is this similar to “the end doesn’t justify the means”? How or how not?

Blessings,
granny

All human life is beautiful.
 
If not, and I could guess that all that happiness was the consequence, I’d willingly accept being murdered. No, I don’t have an intrinsic right to life. Just an animalistic instinct screaming in my head, nothing more.
That’s a really interesting perspective, actually. My own personal belief is that there must be some right to life. Whether that right can be forfeited or waived, and on what grounds, is an issue that still gets people debating hotly - especially when it comes to issues like capital punishment and euthanasia. What I would say, though, is that it becomes difficult to argue for the existence of any other rights if some right to life cannot be established. After all, if someone doesn’t actually have a right to live in the world, they cannot really be said to have any attendant rights.
It’s an even bigger problem if we allow our own personal rights bubbles to swell so large that they begin to burst others’ bubbles, as we do today. 😉
If one can be said to exercise a personal utilitarianism, it seems reasonable to suppose that we are entitled to pursue our own happiness, in ways that don’t increase the suffering of others. Of course, that approach has the attendant problems of how we can know when we are affecting others, and when our rights trump those of others - for example, one could argue that a person in desperate need of food has more right to steal spare food from my fridge than I possess to have the privacy of my house respected. No moral system, as you say, provides a perfect guide to how we should live. Morality is something we should be constantly thinking about and re-assessing.
To be honest, I see a much larger problem with capitalism. 🤷
I agree - capitalism is rife with problems. Though, based on some of my previous experiences on this forum, by saying so, we run the risk of being labelled communists and Marxists, which in some circles, are the most damning insults that can ever be levelled at a person… :ehh:
 
If I may presume to dip my toe in the deep waters of this argument, can you please explain why I, as a married woman, have a moral obligation to have children?
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"1652 "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."160

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.161"
I can understand why I would have a moral obligation to care for said children once I had them, but I’m not sure from where the moral obligation to actually have them in the first place is drawn. It may be a biological imperative to continue my genetic line, but I don’t see how a biological imperative necessarily translates to a moral imperative.
Google “Theology of the Body” and read it.
To bring the utilitarian aspect into play, whence this moral duty when: a) I have no personal desire to have children; b) it’s entirely probable that lack of desire would lead me to be a fairly poor mother; and c) when there are already nearly 7 billion other humans on the planet? Is not my having children likely to increase the amount of suffering in the world without a substantially increasing the happiness?
Those are the “reasons” many materialists bring up as an apologetics for their behavior as well. However, as Catholics, we aren’t allowed to be so foolish.
  1. If you don’t want children, don’t get married. if you don’t want children, don’t have sex.
  2. It is entirely possible that not wanting children could result in your being a poor parent. There are lots of them around. Of course, the Catechism has some rules for parents, too.
  3. Less than 15% of the land area of the Earth’s surface are inhabited by people, including farmers. We’re a long, long way from “overpopulation”. Annihilation is not an answer. We’ll have to find another solution whenever we get close to that time.
Enough on this subject on this thread. This will derail the OA.

jd
 
True - some of the first prominent humanist thinkers, like Erasmus and Thomas More, were certainly Catholic. They tended to believe that cultivating human abilities and that the pursuit of knowledge of the natural world and the human mind were in line with respecting God’s creation. It’s only when human reasoning tends to diverge from Catholic principles that the difficulties arise!
You are very right. I believe Erasmus was perhaps the most intelligent thinker the world has produced. Thomas More, was a Lawyer, albeit, a saintly man as well. Nothing too divergent from Catholicism from those two.

jd
 
I just think it is so funny that the silliest questions, that even a simple minded 2nd grader could answer, gets so many replies. If I had any hair left I would pull it out.
I have hair left. You could try mine. 😃

jd
 
That’s a really interesting perspective, actually**. My own personal belief is that there must be some right to life**. Whether that right can be forfeited or waived, and on what grounds, is an issue that still gets people debating hotly - especially when it comes to issues like capital punishment and euthanasia. What I would say, though, is that it becomes difficult to argue for the existence of any other rights if some right to life cannot be established. After all, if someone doesn’t actually have a right to live in the world, they cannot really be said to have any attendant rights.
The first highlighted sentence is part of the evidence that there is an universal objective moral value that human beings have a right to life.

The second highlighted sentence is right on target. The fact that there is actually an intrinsic right to life makes it possible to discover other rights. Often these are in some hierarchical order.

What is necessary to remember is that an objective moral value exists independently of other’s reactions.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are valuable.
 
You are very right. I believe Erasmus was perhaps the most intelligent thinker the world has produced. Thomas More, was a Lawyer, albeit, a saintly man as well. Nothing too divergent from Catholicism from those two.

jd
Too bad they are not living today. However, I bet Thomas More would still be beheaded.😦
 
If you look, there are actually two potentially contradictory principles held in “the greatest happiness for the greatest number”: the amount of happiness to be gained and the number of people affected. Bentham himself chose to drop “the greatest number” when he realized that utilitarianism couldn’t tell us whether we should worry more about a lot of happiness existing in the world, spread across many beings, or a smaller amount of happiness concentrated in a few beings. In other words, do we promote many content people, or few happy people?

If we want to be precise, we cannot just worry about the number of people that are satisfied or dissatisfied by a decision, but about the amount of satisfaction or dissatisfaction there is. Remember the hierarchies I was talking about? Being a free person is certainly higher on one’s pleasure hierarchy than living a work-free life. Thus, minority oppression is not always justified, because, even though there are less people suffering, there is still more suffering than happiness.
Really, this is not an important subject. Although there was undoubtedly some suffering, it wasn’t that onerous in this country. Now, as to the ultimate effects of slavery on this country, well, that’s a different set of problems, worthy of much discussion. That there was widespread suffering of the slaves, in the South, is an anthropically inspired fiction. Most plantation owners were not stupid. You don’t get your best work out of suffering, underfed workers.

Sorry that I couldn’t get back into the discussion of Utilitarianism until now. Couldn’t be helped. As I said, last night, after thinking it through, the idea of a Utilitarianistic world - with rules - might make some sense. It seems that most people actually are motivated by the hope of happiness and pleasure.

If that is so, and if we cannot convert people to Catholicism fast enough, we can certainly appeal to these “emotions”. Heck, people are already driven by them anyway - that was what you were trying to get us to understand early in this thread, right?

But, there are some “moral absolutes”, regardless of where one thinks they came from. The first moral absolute is simple, “Do good, don’t do evil.” A second moral absolute is the “sanctity of life.” I use “sanctity” because I can’t think of a more secular sounding synonym. A third would be, “don’t steal”. For starters.
That’s the thing; as a consequentialist, I believe the process of determining rights is an error in logic, as it detracts from the evaluation of the consequences. I would prefer solving conflicts without exploitation, but I can’t say that exploitation is always wrong in theory.
Here, we will have to have some absolutes rules as well. The definition of a “right” is not all that difficult. A right is that benefit accorded between human beings precisely because it is reciprocated. I accord you a right to life, for example, because you accord me a right to life. I accord you a right to property precisely because you accord me a right to property. No different than the marketplace. I sell you a chicken; you pay me. I accord you a chicken; you pay me in kind, or, in something else that I will accept. This is the ultimate utility.

I guess the biggest problem is going to be getting this world changed over. Obviously, there are people on this planet who simply want others to die - kind of like the martian in the movie, Independence Day. The next problem is how to convert the politicians. It is the process of getting elected to public office that corrupts these folks. Although there might have been some deficiencies of character before they got involved in the system. Nonetheless, we will need to retain most, if not all, of the current politicians, as they know how things work on the macro level. It would simply take too long for newbies to come up to speed, and citizens would suffer greatly in the transition.

These are some of my first thoughts. What do you think?

jd
 
The question would inevitably arise in that situation. Who would decide which of the two opposing emotions have greater weight in order to be upheld?
Here, the hierarchy makes the determination. The hierarchy would have to be a formal code of conduct.

jd
 
A trusted authority figure (or figures). If an authority figure cannot be trusted to reasonably measure happiness and distress in society, then we democratically elect one that we think can and will do so.
I touch on this, too, in Post # 230.

jd
 
  1. Depends on what the decision is about. He is not allowed to use a mean that would contradict his end (he should not cause more suffering than the happiness that is to be gained).
  2. Democratic votes are the easiest way to sample the public’s opinions, which is essential to utilitarianism.
Interesting. This will actually work better now than it ever would in the past. We now have the technology to instigate a vote via the internet, almost instantly!

jd
 
Suppose 99.9% of people could gain unimaginably great pleasure from the murder of a single person, you. Would you be outraged if I tried to murder you? Do you have any intrinsic right to life?

How would you go about measuring the happiness effect of an action? Would you take a poll before every major decision? How many people would you have to poll? Would it be online (what about those who have no internet?) Would it be through the phone (again, what about those who have no phone?) What about those in isolated rural areas? How would you practically do this?

You mention that democracy is how we choose our leaders in utilitarianism, and that they make the decisions. In that case, how does the leader measure the happiness effect of an action?
Sarp:
These are important details. They will have to be worked out before we can put such a system in place. But, it can be done, I think.
Not necessarily. Many people who are placed under strict control for a long time no longer want to be free, because due to their stress that have associated their captivity with stability. This happens all the time when young children are abducted, for often they refuse to escape even when they can.
Emotions are fickle and hard to measure. People enjoy lots of different things in different amounts in different situations. Some slaves want freedom, others stability. How on earth are we supposed to collect all this data and make a good decision? In our modern world, political decisions can have a worldwide effect. How do you determine the number and degree of “happiness feelings” for 6 billion people?
Actually, if we exclude children under 18, that number is reduced considerably, almost to half, or 3 billion.
Emotions are not absolute. Some slaves wanted freedom, others wanted stability in slavery. Once the slaves were free, many were starving because they were no longer fed and their was a shortage of jobs in the south. Furthermore, since the slaves were totally uneducated, their options for a career were extremely limited. In the early years, many had more physical comforts in slavery than in freedom on the streets. Emotions and the situations that cause them are complex. Was Lincoln bad for causing the slaves to starve in freedom? In the short term, they may have been happier in slavery.
I touch on this subject in Post # 230.
This brings us to the next question: how do we factor time in the equation:
Another detail that can be worked out.
In other words, you admit that individuals can be sacrificed for the greater good.
I would have a problem with is. Has to be part of the rules.
You agree that a problem in utilitarianism is that it does not address absolute individual rights, thus leading to communism and other ideologies that place the public good above the individual? That’s a pretty big problem.
See Post # 230.
Not all systems have problems. Catholic ethics looks at the individual and determines rights, based on the nature of God. Then, the system address what kind of society upholds those rights. Based on the nature of God, the system address “tricky” situations, such as killing in self-defense. There are no problems here. The Catholic system does not appeal to a “happiness quotient” that needs to be measured somehow across 6 billion people. Rather, it deals with absolute laws that can applied in every situation, and address in specific detail how tricky issues should be dealt with in accordance with the previously established philosophical system.
Don’t forget, this country was founded on Protestantism, not Catholicism. We know there are problems inherent in our system.
In summary, there are three more problems in utilitarianism:
  1. How do we factor in time? Is it permissible to cause massive suffering for the sake of a much greater good far in the future, such as maybe a “utopian society?”
  1. How are we to measure “happiness levels” for 6 billion people?
  1. As a consequentialist, are you willing to sacrifice individuals for the greater good as long as the numbers come out right (majority quantity and quality)? You seem to have admitted this.
Let’s work together on this. Perhaps we can simulate the process of converting to a utilitarian form of society, if all of us participate in this.

jd
 
Aren’t you looking at this backwards?

First comes a basic objective moral law which exists outside of you, me, utilitarians, and the rest of the human population. There is no “if” regarding morality’s existence. There is absolutely no arbitrarily anything. Have I missed something? I don’t understand why subjective reasoning is being used when the majority of previous posts demonstrated that subjective decisions are, for the most part, useless.
Yes! This is how we’ll “know” right from wrong at the level of morality, within the utilitarian framework.

There are some things that simply don’t lend themselves well to the scrutiny of “happiness” or “pleasure”. Not a problem. Thanks, Granny.

Oreo, are you OK with this?

jd
 
Yes! This is how we’ll “know” right from wrong at the level of morality, within the utilitarian framework.

There are some things that simply don’t lend themselves well to the scrutiny of “happiness” or “pleasure”. Not a problem. Thanks, Granny.

Oreo, are you OK with this?

jd
You guys post pretty quick! I’ll respond to #230 in a bit, because there are a few problems with the contract theory that I’d like to hit on. And I realize that, with the current maturity level of the human race, there need to be some absolutes, though I still prefer looking at cases individually.

But for the most part, I like where this is going. Please continue.
 
Two questions: what’s the duration of the happiness, roughly? Would the people, after murdering me, turn toward a new person to kill in the same vein? Sacrifice becomes less meaningful when it becomes systematic, and there are fewer to affect.

If not, and I could guess that all that happiness was the consequence, I’d willingly accept being murdered. No, I don’t have an intrinsic right to life. Just an animalistic instinct screaming in my head, nothing more.
See Post # 230. The “marketplace” settles the “right to life” question.

Would not there be “courts of rules” (like law) that guide us in the proper interpretation of what is the most beneficial? At 150 million adults, in this country, there has to be some system of rules dispensing and enforcement at the local level. Also, there would have to be some sort of police system. What’s your thoughts?
Poll all of the citizens through the mail. You could also hold local meetings. The few who may be missing wouldn’t sway the vote much, anyway. You could poll over a range of interests, to determine your peoples’ hierarchal pattern, which would be used in future decision-making. For decisions affecting those outside the community, extrapolate if you can, based off the results of your own people.
Yes, that’s exactly what I was thinking. Although, that might be a little problematic. Different parts of this country have completely different ideas regarding their priorities. For example, the Northeast does not give a darn about fiscal responsibility in government, while the South and West care immensely about it. Would you suggest sectionalizing the country?
Sacrifice, if not used sparingly, eventually becomes useless, or worse: harmful.
This brings up a really good point: Would we adulate heroes? I mean, if a person is killed trying to defend the life of another, how would that be seen? It seems to me that we shouldn’t encourage such behavior. What are your thoughts?
It’s an even bigger problem if we allow our own personal rights bubbles to swell so large that they begin to burst others’ bubbles, as we do today.
But, what about the “right to privacy”? The National Organization for Women will certainly put pressure on us to retain that “right”.
To be honest, I see a much larger problem with capitalism.
You might be right; I did not even think about the economic system currently in place. What kind of problems do you expect?
What do you plan on doing that will affect 6 billion people?
I would like to answer this: Converting them to utilitarianism. We have to do business with them. There can’t exist two totally different concepts of defining international law. Whenever that occurs, wars happen.

jd
 
Gotta go out for a while. C’ya shortly.

I’m excited. This is cool!👍

jd
 
As far as I am concerned, that screaming in your head is evidence of the objective moral value that life is sacred. Furthermore, I’m yielding to your idea that emotions can be involved in decision making. I know mine were that day along with adrenalin.
Sounds reasonable. You should know that, when you speak to a consequentialist, they think you mean something entirely different than that when you say “objective moral value.” So it took a while for me to get what you meant.
So long as the means don’t contradict the end — Is this similar to “the end doesn’t justify the means”? How or how not?
Not really. I made a post a bit above yours to Agangbern explaining what I meant. The means cannot defeat the purpose of the end, but the means do not justify themselves. It’s precisely because I care for the end that I don’t want the means to contradict it.

In the case of utilitarianism, a contradiction would be what I said before: the end is intended to be a gain of X amount of happiness, and the means used to attain that end should not prevent more than X amount of happiness, because that would be a decrease in overall utility.
 
In order to clarify the debate, I will only address the key points of your post.
If not, and I could guess that all that happiness was the consequence, I’d willingly accept being murdered. No, I don’t have an intrinsic right to life. Just an animalistic instinct screaming in my head, nothing more.
Suppose the majority were to gain tremendous happiness that could not be gained any other way than through the murder of me. Would you be willing to send out people to eliminate me for the “greater happiness?”
It’s an even bigger problem if we allow our own personal rights bubbles to swell so large that they begin to burst others’ bubbles, as we do today. 😉
I never said we should inflate rights beyond what they naturally are. You have introduced a red herring and have not answered my question. My question:

“You agree that a problem in utilitarianism is that it does not address absolute individual rights, thus leading to communism and other ideologies that place the public good above the individual?”

This is a simple question that can be answered with a yes or no. Is it acceptable to compromise individuals for the sake of the greater good, assuming the greater good could not reached any other way?
What do you plan on doing that will affect 6 billion people?
-carbon emissions
-ICBM stockpiles
-stem-cell research
-economic practices like the bailout
  • international trade
    -medical research
These are only a few examples.

How are you planning to figure out what inhabitants of Africa want in regards to carbon emissions?

The fundamental issue is this:

Is it permissable to compromise individuals for the sake of the greater good, assuming that the good could not be achieved any other way?
 
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