Why Should God Be the Moral Authority?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Oreoracle
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The answer to my question is not found there in post#72. It was a question addressed to Oreoracle concerning some of his allegations, but it is ok if another would like to answer it. Here is the question, and how the question developed:
It’s easy to see, really. Why would someone refrain from having pre-marital sex, if those involved enjoy it?

Why would we refrain from gambling, as long as those involved enjoy it and do not lose enough money to harm themselves?

Why go to church on sundays if I have more pleasurable things to do?

Clearly, Christianity doesn’t give a hoot about happiness or suffering. If a Christian does, it is only indirectly recognized.
 
I’m glad you think so. It was in post #81.

P. S. Grannymh, I will get to your post later tonight. I want to make sure that I don’t rush my phrasing. 🙂
P.P.S. I’m thinking I should do the same, i.e., not rush. We are dealing with some basic issues. Human beings are so complex. Yet, we are very valuable. 👍
 
P.P.S. I’m thinking I should do the same, i.e., not rush. We are dealing with some basic issues. Human beings are so complex. Yet, we are very valuable. 👍
Absolutely. 😃

I don’t know if you missed it, but I posted a response already.
 
Yes. To a utilitarian, anyway. If you aren’t the judge of how happy you are or will be, then who is?
Thanks for affirming that to a utilitarian, committing suicide is justified. But no, it cannot justify suicide. A utilitarian’s emotion may say that one’s life is already valueless and therefore fit for suicide in order to attain happiness. But how talk of happiness when he could no longer experience it? No. There is no happiness there.

Suicide in order to minimize suffering? It is no longer minimizing. It is total extinguishment.

Clearly, uitilitarianism cannot justify suicide.

Now, happiness. To me, happiness is the condition that a person experiences resulting from the love that is overflowing from within him. Who judges whether one is happy or not? Naturally, the main source of love is the one who shall judge. None other but God. A person who commits suicide cannot be said to be happy because love is absent in him. For love never lose hope, it is patient, not self-seeking.
 
Now, happiness. To me, happiness is the condition that a person experiences resulting from the love that is overflowing from within him. Who judges whether one is happy or not? Naturally, the main source of love is the one who shall judge. None other but God. A person who commits suicide cannot be said to be happy because love is absent in him. For love never lose hope, it is patient, not self-seeking.
Huh? The person who experiences the love should be the judge of how it feels, not the other way around.
 
I’d be interested in knowing how a humanist determines which qualities we should promote. Could you explain your version of it?
On another thread, I had my head on a platter for omitting the original idea of humanism which dates back to Sir Thomas More, (1478-1535) an English politician and humanist scholar who wrote the essay Utopia. He refused to give up his Catholic religion so he was beheaded by King Henry VIII.

Humanism has changed quite a bit over the years. There are still some who hold to the classical definitions of humanism, one of which is the concern for the interests, needs, welfare, and worth of people.

Today’s humanism, for the most part, uses relativism as its philosophy. Currently, the American Humanist Association is in attack mode against Christianity. The following websites contain a wealth of information if one takes the time to understand what is really being said. The atheistic agenda is obvious.

This website has been updated since 2008. It is a well written, inviting, consoling, convincing, non-hopeful denial of the basic meaning of human life. Under definitions, humanism is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.

The following sites are intact from the 2008 holiday campaign.
They were dedicated to promoting the American Humanist Association and specifically their holiday campaign “Why believe in a god?” Just be good for goodness’ [sic] sake." Their agenda promoting atheism is obvious.





Blessings,
granny

All human beings are loved by God with a capital G.
 
On another thread, I had my head on a platter for omitting the original idea of humanism which dates back to Sir Thomas More, (1478-1535) an English politician and humanist scholar who wrote the essay Utopia. He refused to give up his Catholic religion so he was beheaded by King Henry VIII.

Humanism has changed quite a bit over the years. There are still some who hold to the classical definitions of humanism, one of which is the concern for the interests, needs, welfare, and worth of people.

Today’s humanism, for the most part, uses relativism as its philosophy.
I think the claim that Humanism is relativistic is unfounded.

The American Humanist Society published a Humanist Manifesto in 1933 that defines Humanism as “a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.” The Manifesto affirms the following beliefs:

"Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational
analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.

Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary
change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known. Ethical values are derived from human need
and interest as tested by experience.

Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.

Life’s fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death.

Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty. Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships.

Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness, progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature’s resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature’s integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner. Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone. "
 
It’s easy to see, really. Why would someone refrain from having pre-marital sex, if those involved enjoy it?
Because pre-marital sex would violate the sanctity of marriage. Why look forward to marriage when the two are already having pre-marital sex? It would only make marriage a mockery.
Why would we refrain from gambling, as long as those involved enjoy it and do not lose enough money to harm themselves?
Because more often than not gambling enslaves man to money.
Why go to church on sundays if I have more pleasurable things to do?
Because a Christian finds going to church more pleasurable than other things on Sunday.
Clearly, Christianity doesn’t give a hoot about happiness or suffering. If a Christian does, it is only indirectly recognized.
On the contrary, Christians seek happiness. It is in pursuit of happiness that they are willing and ready to endure temporary sacrifices.

Clearly, the allegation that Christians do not uphold happiness is false.
 
Yes. To a utilitarian, anyway. If you aren’t the judge of how happy you are or will be, then who is?
Well, I, for one, hope that one of these jerks doesn’t land on me when she jumps from that 20-story balcony! That would seem to be a rather selfish act. In fact, hierarchy notwithstanding, I can envision numerous acts of selfishness that could impair my achievement of my own happiness in a similar way, as a direct result of holding a utilitarian philosophy. Now, you might say, well, people are jumping from balconies every day. I would reply, yes, but not on the magnitude that a universal acceptance of utilitarianism would produce.
This is where John Stuart Mill did interesting work. He claimed that there were different levels of happiness, and that these levels formed a hierarchy. He didn’t plot out these levels, but he did note that people tend to prefer socializing, art, feeling like they’re part of a group, etc. over gaining material wealth, drinking alcohol, or having sex.
Let’s be honest: the odds are that the numbers of rapists, murderers, thieves, abusers, perverts, and other purveyors of off-beat hedonistic desires would dramatically increase, as this philosophy reaches near universal acceptance. To say otherwise is to have your head in the sand, regarding human behavior. Who would want to be a police officer, or a fire fighter, or a hero, under such a world life-style? Those would not be happiness-generating jobs.

Acts of heroism, so greatly admired for their saintly character, would all but vanish. Why trade my search for happiness for that other person’s? Let the bus run him over.
Given those things, utilitarianism doesn’t seem simplistic at all. Sure, we have some emotions that we classify as whims and impulses, but we do have less flexible underlying emotional convictions that are responsible for our perspective of life in the long run. They can, however, be changed; but often not that much.
I guess not.
For example, I would get pleasure from jumping the next attractive girl I see in public. But it is easy to see that more suffering would be derived from that action (even if we only consider me) due to the hierarchal system. Sure, I want to have pleasure from sex, but then again, I want to remain socially acceptable and feel ethically consistent, and both of these elements I hold in higher regard than sex.
If everyone shared that perspective precisely, you might have a point here. But, as we most assuredly realize, not everyone shares common perspectives. So, here, in my opinion, is where utilitarianism breaks down. There is no way to justify any enforcement of your life-style views on everyone else, and, the gross number of deviations would, beyond a shadow of a doubt, dramatically increase.
I think that it’s not so hard to tell when the happiness derived from an act outweighs the suffering, or vice versa.
That may be true, or, or may not be true, but, that doesn’t mean it will be universally embraced.
Even if emotions are difficult to gauge, it doesn’t mean that it’s the wrong standard to use.
I would not want it to be my standard. Perhaps, as an adjunct to a more rigorous and real standard, OK, but, not as a stand-alone standard.
If you’re following a different ethical system because of that, you’re looking for an easy, irrational way out.
Not so at all. If I had a large piece of property, and, if I really didn’t need all of that property, but, all of that property made me happy, then my aim would be to keep it all intact. But, let’s say that you didn’t have any property and, because of that, your happiness was considerably less than mine, and, that it was thought that your attainment of some of my property would produce more happiness in you than it would produce suffering in me, society could be justified in lopping of a piece of my property and giving it to you.

Even if you can’t see the above happening, you can easily see it happening in a scenario where there are several people like you who don’t have any property. Certainly, lopping off some of my property, that I’ve busted my butt for for years, would clearly make the maximum number of people happy and only one person unhappy. That might just be the cause of me taking up arms. But, I guess, we could confiscate all of the guns owned by people.
If we can’t agree that these instincts can’t eventually take the form of emotions, can we at least agree that there are different, all but established levels of happiness for each person (though not all of those hierarchies are the same)?
This is a restatement of the above problem with the philosophy. There would be 6.45 billion differing philosophies regarding what would make each happiest. It would essentially become mob rule.
Utilitarianism’s slogan is “the greatest happiness for the greatest number” not “the greatest happiness for everyone.” That would be impossible. We should make the decision that will cause the most happiness overall.
As I said, mob rule. There can be no other result.

continued…
 
Part 2…
Mill himself stated that, if there were a virtue involved in utilitarianism, it would be the concern for others’ happiness. That tribe clearly didn’t have it, and we can be sure that they eliminated more potential happiness from the lives of those they killed than they themselves gained. Not only were there actions immoral, they were immoral.
Not so at all. That tribe truly believed that they would gain much from the annihilation of the other tribe. They might have really believed, based on some bad science or statistics, that the food and water sources were depleting so rapidly that it would cause real suffering for all, including the wiped-out tribe. Or, they might truly believe that the continuous clandestine attacks, by members of the wiped-out tribe caused them so much consternation that they would be forever walking on egg shells. And, if they were the larger population, they would be morally justified under utilitarianism, namely, the most happiness for the most people.
No, but our comforts that we think we have to have require a hefty upkeep. The use of our technology is taking a toll on the environment and the animals within. Plus, most people want to occupy the same places.
And, how do we resolve those conflicts?

jd
 
Thanks for getting me up to speed, JD.

I think that it is hard to defeat the case that everyone pursues their utility, whatever that may be. Even someone behaving altruistically could be viewed as having helping others as part of her utility that outweighs the associated costs. The problem is that utilitarianism then becomes so broad that it doesn’t carry any information. It doesn’t distinguish one person’s moral outlook from another’s. It just says that people do what they value doing, but that doesn’t answer the real question at hand when we talk about moral theories, which is “why should we value what we value?” In other words, utilitarianism is descriptive (we do what we value doing) but not prescriptive (this is what we should value).

Best,
Leela
Pretty good - especially your last sentence.

jd
 
The answer to my question is not found there in post#72. It was a question addressed to Oreoracle concerning some of his allegations, but it is ok if another would like to answer it. Here is the question, and how the question developed:

The allegation:

My question:

The “answer”:

Clearly, the question has not yet been answered.
I see your point. It has not as of this post.

jd
 
It’s easy to see, really. Why would someone refrain from having pre-marital sex, if those involved enjoy it?

Why would we refrain from gambling, as long as those involved enjoy it and do not lose enough money to harm themselves?

Why go to church on sundays if I have more pleasurable things to do?

Clearly, Christianity doesn’t give a hoot about happiness or suffering. If a Christian does, it is only indirectly recognized.
I can add another: Why not defecate on your front lawn, if it’s not in your path and the wind is blowing in the opposite direction?

Seriously!

jd
 
Thanks for affirming that to a utilitarian, committing suicide is justified. But no, it cannot justify suicide. A utilitarian’s emotion may say that one’s life is already valueless and therefore fit for suicide in order to attain happiness. But how talk of happiness when he could no longer experience it? No. There is no happiness there.

Suicide in order to minimize suffering? It is no longer minimizing. It is total extinguishment.

Clearly, uitilitarianism cannot justify suicide.

Now, happiness. To me, happiness is the condition that a person experiences resulting from the love that is overflowing from within him. Who judges whether one is happy or not? Naturally, the main source of love is the one who shall judge. None other but God. A person who commits suicide cannot be said to be happy because love is absent in him. For love never lose hope, it is patient, not self-seeking.
I agree.

jd
 
I think the claim that Humanism is relativistic is unfounded.

The American Humanist Society published a Humanist Manifesto in 1933 that defines Humanism as “a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.” The Manifesto affirms the following beliefs:

"Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational
analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.

Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary
change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known. Ethical values are derived from human need
and interest as tested by experience.

Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.

Life’s fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death.

Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty. Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships.

Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness, progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature’s resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature’s integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner. Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone. "
This thing is so replete with errors, it’s hard to get motivated to read it in its short entirety. Leela, puhleeze! The only things that are “misguided” are these people themselves.

jd
 
I think the claim that Humanism is relativistic is unfounded.

The American Humanist Society published a Humanist Manifesto in 1933 that defines Humanism as “a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.” The Manifesto affirms the following beliefs:
FYI
The American Humanist Association currently uses Humanist Manifesto III which is a successor to the 1933 one.

I did not claim that humanism is relativistic. What I actually said was: Today’s humanism, for the most part, uses relativism as its philosophy.

The current American Humanist Association says: [Humanism] “evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.” taken from “Humanism and Its Aspirations,” www.americanhumanist.org Go to “About” then down to “Humanism”.

“subject to change” is one of the key concepts of basic relativism.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.
 
This thing is so replete with errors, it’s hard to get motivated to read it in its short entirety. Leela, puhleeze! The only things that are “misguided” are these people themselves.

jd
Can you give an example of an “error”? This is a statement of what Humanists believe. How could it be in error? Are you saying that the Humanist Manifesto is wrong about what Humists actually believe?
 
FYI
The American Humanist Association currently uses Humanist Manifesto III which is a successor to the 1933 one.

I did not claim that humanism is relativistic. What I actually said was: Today’s humanism, for the most part, uses relativism as its philosophy.

The current American Humanist Association says: [Humanism] “evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.” taken from “Humanism and Its Aspirations,” www.americanhumanist.org Go to “About” then down to “Humanism”.

“subject to change” is one of the key concepts of basic relativism.
.
Since science is “subject to change,” does that make science relativistic? To be able to change when better ideas come along sounds like a strength rather than a weakness.
 
Since science is “subject to change,” does that make science relativistic? To be able to change when better ideas come along sounds like a strength rather than a weakness.
According to my dictionary, physics uses the word relativistic. However, the real point is that physics or science is in a different realm than philosophy. “To be able to change” sounds like “free will” which of course is a strength of being human.
 
So you’re not satisfied by the dictionary definition? Okay, I’ll tell you. When I say “theist”, I mean I am someone who believes in a benevolent, creator god and a joyful, non-exclusive afterlife. I haven’t even decided if my god’s character is masculine or feminine, but I don’t see why such details matter. I also mean that the existence of this god (or any god, for that matter) is irrelevant to my ethical system, utilitarianism.
What is extremely interesting about your post above is that the reasons you give here for defining yourself as a (for want of a better word) generic theist are pretty much the same reasons I have for defining myself as an atheist :whacky:

To clarify, and to speak to the purpose of your original post, my feeling is that if there is indeed a god, then it seems unlikely, to me, anyway, that said god is anything like the God described in the Bible, who seems capricious, unjust, and perhaps most damningly of all from the point of view of those who believe God to be a perfect being, changeable. Furthermore, the ethics that I apply in my daily life are ones for which it is irrelevant as to whether or not there is a god watching over my actions and thoughts.

The idea of the existence of a god or gods being irrelevant to the daily application of morals is one that has come up in the book I am currently reading, the Blackwell Companion to Ethics, edited by Peter Singer (it’s an area of study in which I have recently developed a deeper interest; and, yes, I own that I am a nerd 🤓) The first chapter is about ethics in small societies, consisting of hundreds or at most thousands of people. The essayist describes a few small African communities, researched by anthropologists, in which their morality was not necessarily rules-based nor believed to be divinely ordered; but their overall ethical approach was informed by the practical need to maintain harmonious relationships within the group. Such communities often believed in gods, but they were conceived as beings who were part of the natural world, who had no special interest in humans.

Since it is likely that early human societies were small, tribal groupings, I think it’s possible to suppose that the fundamentals of ethics arose firstly from the need to care for one’s kin for survival purposes, and then the need to get along with the rest of your community. Thus it can be argued that the basis for morality lies within human relationships, and that it’s not necessary to make reference to God. However, the practicalities of applying ethics in small groups don’t seem to translate well to large groups of people, where relationships are often transitory, and there is no sense that they must be maintained as a matter of course. That’s when it becomes necessary to apply to a higher authority, whether that be God, or the rule of law, or some other entity in order to make moral choices more objective.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top