Why Should I Become A Catholic.

[Mberg3]

The Council of Trent explained: “though contrition may sometimes be made perfect by charity and may reconcile men to God before the actual reception of this sacrament, still the reconciliation is not to be ascribed to the contrition apart from the desire for the sacrament which it includes.” Thus, as the Catholic Encyclopedia describes the doctrine, “Perfect contrition, with the desire of receiving the Sacrament of Penance, restores the sinner to grace at once.” So a person in such circumstances would not, in fact, die outside of the state of grace at all.

Of course, it would be extremely risky to continue along in a sinful life, trusting your salvation to the hope that you get a few moments before dying to experience a change of heart and perfect contrition. (After all, if you’ve got such a great “desire of receiving the Sacrament of Penance,” then how come you didn’t go last week, or the week before, or the week before that?)

Does perfect contrition alone absolve the sinner, or are both Contrition and Absolution needed. and where does that place the Christian who is contrite, but does not accept the Sacrament of Confession and Absolution

 

[MarkThompson]

This is interesting because I personally have felt that I am assured of salvation, and the assurance grows through interacting with God through the Eucharist. There has never been one time that I have doubted, but sitting on my laurels was never something I had considered. I had always wanted to share my gift of Gods love and salvation in many ways which was why I feel joyfully-compulsion to help others in need or offer forgiveness to others. In my experience salvation doesn’t but things on cruise control, it puts things in overdrive.

Different people experience different things, I’m sure. One cannot, though, in general put too much stock in discerning the truth on the basis of what individuals “personally feel assured of.” There are Muslims who personally feel assured that Allah is Lord and Mohammed is his Prophet; and atheists who personally feel assured that there is no God at all. People feel very confident in all sorts of beliefs, but, of course, many of them are completely wrong.

Don’t take that as a personal remark, please. I just happen to disagree with Protestant theology about salvation, that’s all.

 

[Mberg3]

Different people experience different things, I’m sure. One cannot, though, in general put too much stock in discerning the truth on the basis of what individuals “personally feel assured of.” There are Muslims who personally feel assured that Allah is Lord and Mohammed is his Prophet; and atheists who personally feel assured that there is no God at all. People feel very confident in all sorts of beliefs, but, of course, many of them are completely wrong.

Don’t take that as a personal remark, please. I just happen to disagree with Protestant theology about salvation, that’s all.

I understand and I don’t take it personally. In my opinion it is not exactly a Protestant view, but my Protestant education my be favoring one part of the explaination. In my view both works and faith are needed for salvation, but they both spring from a certainty that you are going to be saved in the end. Otherwise if you are not certain why believe. Jesus say “I AM the way, the truth and the light WHOEVER believes in me will not perish but will have eternal life” although it is off the top of my head, statements like this seem to me to imply a sure salvation.

 

[MarkThompson]

Does perfect contrition alone absolve the sinner, or are both Contrition and Absolution needed. and where does that place the Christian who is contrite, but does not accept the Sacrament of Confession and Absolution

The last part seems easy: if you do not accept the validity and necessity of the sacraments as taught by the Church, then you are not capable of an act of perfect contrition, which requires a desire for the sacrament of Penance.

As to when the sinner is returned to the state of grace in such a case, I’m no great theologian of the sacraments or of soteriology. You can learn much more than I know newadvent.org/cathen/04337a.htm. As I understand it, though, an act of perfect contrition – which, again, includes the desire for sacramental absolution – does suffice to return a person to the state of grace immediately, while an act of imperfect contrition requires the sacrament to be effective. The difference between perfect and imperfect contrition is that perfect contrition is sorrow for having offended God, while imperfect contrition would be things like fear of Hell, regret at having degraded yourself by your sin, and so on. Many people, I tend to suspect, do not actually have a sufficiently well-formed spirituality and selfless love of God to make an act of perfect contrition. (Which is exactly why God gave us the gift of sacramental Penance.)

 

[Mberg3]

The last part seems easy: if you do not accept the validity and necessity of the sacraments as taught by the Church, then you are not capable of an act of perfect contrition, which requires a desire for the sacrament of Penance.

So you are saying that you are not sure how Christians who do not desire the Sacrament of Penance or can have “perfect contrition” are in or out of a state of Grace if they die in a mortal sin correct?

 

[MarkThompson]

I understand and I don’t take it personally. In my opinion it is not exactly a Protestant view, but my Protestant education my be favoring one part of the explaination. In my view both works and faith are needed for salvation, but they both spring from a certainty that you are going to be saved in the end. Otherwise if you are not certain why believe. Jesus say “I AM the way, the truth and the light WHOEVER believes in me will not perish but will have eternal life” although it is off the top of my head, statements like this seem to me to imply a sure salvation.

Well, Jesus also said a lot of things that imply a very unsure and rocky road to salvation, didn’t he. I can’t think of a single parable he told to try to express the message you’re discussing (sure salvation), rather than to warn people that exactly the opposite is true.

There is also a risk in taking some of Jesus’ statements too literally, out of context. Surely he did not mean that a person who believed in him, but who never got baptized, did not lead any sort of Christian life, and was an unrepentant murderer, ought to be assured of salvation. That would make Jesus’ saying in John 3 (“Unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit”) pretty pointless, wouldn’t it? Likewise, Catholics put great stock in the teachings of Jesus about the Eucharist in John 6, but even when he says “whoever eats this bread will live forever” we do not believe that if a non-Catholic broke into a church, picked the lock of the tabernacle, and ate the Eucharist, that he had any kind of guarantee that he would “live forever.”

 

[MarkThompson]

So you are saying that you are not sure how Christians who do not desire the Sacrament of Penance or can have “perfect contrition” are in or out of a state of Grace if they die in a mortal sin correct?

Forgive the presumption, but I’m guessing that the question you are getting at is, would Catholic doctrine be willing to admit that a Protestant could be saved who rejects the notion of sacramental confession to a priest and opts not to join the Catholic Church, but is really contrite for all his sins, not for selfish reasons but because of the selfless love of God and regret at having offended him. As I understand it, the answer to that is no. But then, if you are asking what I personally am sure of, the answer is I don’t know, since I’m just a reasonably smart guy who once took two semesters of theology in college.

Also, as interesting as this is, I’m going to have to sign off here and go to bed. If you haven’t checked out the Apologetics forum, I can virtually guarantee that you will get better answers than mine there. Cheers –

 

[Mberg3]

Well, Jesus also said a lot of things that imply a very unsure and rocky road to salvation, didn’t he. I can’t think of a single parable he told to try to express the message you’re discussing (sure salvation), rather than to warn people that exactly the opposite is true.

There is also a risk in taking some of Jesus’ statements too literally, out of context. Surely he did not mean that a person who believed in him, but who never got baptized, did not lead any sort of Christian life, and was an unrepentant murderer, ought to be assured of salvation. That would make Jesus’ saying in John 3 (“Unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit”) pretty pointless, wouldn’t it? Likewise, Catholics put great stock in the teachings of Jesus about the Eucharist in John 6, but even when he says “whoever eats this bread will live forever” we do not believe that if a non-Catholic broke into a church, picked the lock of the tabernacle, and ate the Eucharist, that he had any kind of guarantee that he would “live forever.”

I understand your positions, but would not those example fall under the “not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord’”… Matthew 7:21-23. Meaning that there is a rocky path for those who claim to know the Lord but do not. Meanwhile the statements of Paul, such as 1 Corinth. 15 seem to be full of certainty, and as Hebrews states “Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” I like to emphasis the CERTAIN part of that because it seems to be a key element in faith. Although you may say that faith is in God and not that he will save you, I would say that faith in a God that may not save you is a sad thought… in my opinion.

Toward the Bottom of catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp there is a better explanation of how the Christian can be assured of Salvation, but understandably it does leave out self-delusion

 

[FCEGM]

I understand your positions, but would not those example fall under the “not everyone who says ‘Lord, Lord’”… Matthew 7:21-23. Meaning that there is a rocky path for those who claim to know the Lord but do not. Meanwhile the statements of Paul, such as 1 Corinth. 15 seem to be full of certainty, and as Hebrews states “Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” I like to emphasis the CERTAIN part of that because it seems to be a key element in faith. Although you may say that faith is in God and not that he will save you, I would say that faith in a God that may not save you is a sad thought… in my opinion.

Toward the Bottom of catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp there is a better explanation of how the Christian can be assured of Salvation, but understandably it does leave out self-delusion

You might find these articles on salvation, grace, redemption and sanctification to be helpful:

philvaz.com/apologetics/a54.htm

philvaz.com/apologetics/a127.htm

philvaz.com/apologetics/a53.htm

philvaz.com/apologetics/a119.htm

 

[Mberg3]

Moving on to the Sacrament of Penance- What is the Priest’s Role in the Sacrament?

 

[Mberg3]

You might find these articles on salvation, grace, redemption and sanctification to be helpful:

philvaz.com/apologetics/a119.htm

I find this one to be especially done in poor taste. This is obviously written for the Catholic audience, but I feel that it is full of bigotry and misunderstandings. If this is the Catholic position on those who disagree with it then I would have a had time thinking about joining them.

 

[Link0126]

• So if Salvation is a Process is an individual “more saved” at one point of their life than another, or is this an incorrect understanding of the message

“And that knowing the season; that it is now the hour for us to rise from sleep. For now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.” - Rom. 13:11

We are assured of our salvation if we are in a state of Grace when we die. If not, we do not have that assurance but the Church has never said that a particular person was in hell or that hell is 100% certain in any case. Paul btw, wrote that verse above right after an entire paragraph telling his readers not to commit adultery, covet, steal etc. and to love thy neighbor. So our actions absolutely can affect our salvation and one can be “in” or “out” at any given time. As far as “more saved” this I guess would have to do with our spiritual journey as we grow in holiness and do penance.

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

Bottom line is that we cannot know whether we are going to be saved or not, we would need to have knowledge of our whole lifes up until the point of our deaths to even be able to begin to try and judge, and God does not give such knowledge to men.

We cannot be the judge of whether we are going to be saved or not, it is God who judges not us.

“For it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man whom the Lord commends.” 2Corinthians 10:18

 

[pablope]

• So if Salvation is a Process is an individual “more saved” at one point of their life than another, or is this an incorrect understanding of the message

Hi, MB…I think it is incorrect. “More saved” may not be the right word for it. Salvation is a lifelong process. As we continue living in the sacraments…receiving the Eucharist, being true to our baptism and confirmation, confessing and repenting our sins, we grow in piety, or our faith grows (remember the mustard seed parable) and shows in our works, how we live our lives.

We rely on God’s mercy for our final judgement. I think Matthew 28 will shed more here…the sheep and goats parable of the final judgement.

 

[pablope]

So you seem to say that there are times “in” and times “out” of the state of Grace which determine Salvation. If you are “in” then saved if “out” then not… is this a fair representation?

To remain in a state of grace, we must not commit mortal sin. Mortal sin, or any sin, separates us from God. To be reconciled, we must be contrite and resolve to confess our sins and resolve to not sin anymore. Then go to confession, which restores our state of grace with God.

 

[pablope]

This is interesting because I personally have felt that I am assured of salvation, and the assurance grows through interacting with God through the Eucharist. There has never been one time that I have doubted, but sitting on my laurels was never something I had considered. I had always wanted to share my gift of Gods love and salvation in many ways which was why I feel joyfully-compulsion to help others in need or offer forgiveness to others. In my experience salvation doesn’t but things on cruise control, it puts things in overdrive.

Maybe this passage from Hebrews 10 will help, which I will just cite a portion:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

 

[pablope]

Moving on to the Sacrament of Penance- What is the Priest’s Role in the Sacrament?

I am assuming from your question that you are familiar with the sacrament already.

The priest’s role is to act “in persona Christi”…or in the place of Christ…to hear our oral accounting of our sins (where we admit our sins, our guilt, accuse ourselves of the sins, and be contrite), the priest gives us some oral advice, pronounce penance for our sins, and most importantly, say the absolution…that our sins have been forgiven.

 

[Mberg3]

I am assuming from your question that you are familiar with the sacrament already.

The priest’s role is to act “in persona Christi”…or in the place of Christ…to hear our oral accounting of our sins (where we admit our sins, our guilt, accuse ourselves of the sins, and be contrite), the priest gives us some oral advice, pronounce penance for our sins, and most importantly, say the absolution…that our sins have been forgiven.

So if the Priest acts “in the place of Christ” I assume that you mean that he pronounces that absolution which is from Chirst, which is not “in the place of” but as a “representative” of Christ. So that the actual role “in the place of Christ” would be the “Pronouncement of penance for our sins” which is “in the Place of” not mearly his representative.There seems to be a difference to me but I may be splitting hairs. Do you need to do the Penance to be forgiven your sins. If you your sins are forgiven before Penance then what is the role of penance in the believers life, and if sins are forgiven after penance it would seem as though the absolution could not be said until penance was completed. I assume it is the former option so clarifacation would help

 

[josephback]

Why should you become a Catholic? Fullness. Other organizations may have glimmers of truth that they inherited from Rome, but the fullness lies only in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The whole faith is preserved in Rome.

 

[Mberg3]

Why should you become a Catholic? Fullness. Other organizations may have glimmers of truth that they inherited from Rome, but the fullness lies only in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The whole faith is preserved in Rome.

As much as I appreciate your view I do not simply take your word that the Roman Church is the One, Holy, Etc Church. and that the whole faith is preserved in Rome. If this was the case at one point I want proof that it was. If that is proven I want to know why that does not extend to the Orthodox Church. If that is proven I want to know why that is valid for the Church today any more so than the Anglican, Lutheran, Orthodoxy, etc claim to have the whole faith preseved.