Why should I believe in a god?

[Matthew_Light]

We’re both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you

“God” is simply a word pointing at the fundamental reality underpinning all of existence.

Everyone believes in some kind of Ultimate Reality that manifests existence. Theists and positive atheists simply disagree about the properties of this Reality. Theists believe this Reality is purposeful, cognizant, and ultimately beneficent and loving, atheists believe this Reality is chaotic, accidental, meaningless, mechanical and dead. Theists call this reality “God”, positive atheists call it “the laws of nature”.

 

[XndrK]

Do you not consider it a good thing that people have to think about morality themselves? This is one of the reasons I could never accept Christianity: the Genesis story clearly states that God wanted Adam and Eve to obey him, without thinking for themselves wether they did the moral thing. Having been brought up in post World War II, I know that befehl ist befehl or ‘the Nuremburg defense’ is a reprehensible thing. It was rightly thrown out by the judges. Yet this is what God demanded of Adam and Eve.

God gave Adam and Eve the choice to reject Him, and He gave them (and all humanity) the reasoning capacity to think about it. The reason Adam and Eve stayed as long as they did is because it turns out that God is pretty cool to hang around, and it took an irrational appeal to pride to break the bond between God and Adam.

Secondly, a lot of atheists and agnostics have considered that there are beings that are greater than themselves. But they saw no evidence for that claim. God shows Himself very randomly. Why does He not give everyone a Damascus road experience? Why does God play favorites? Matt Dillahunty, one of the hosts of The Atheist Experience, became an atheist while studying to become a minister!

This is a very good question, and I don’t really have a good answer to it, but I have a passable one (as far as I’m concerned). I just have to assume that God is smarter than me and knows what He’s doing, even though I, with my limited capacity to see the big picture, can’t see the whole thing.

The minds of atheists and agnostics are not as closed as you might think.

… except Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne.

Seriously, though. I’ll take an Old Atheist (Nietzsche, Sartre, etc.) any day of the week, but the Hitchens-Coyne-Dawkins club annoys me to no end.

 

[benjohnson]

I can only speak for myself ofcourse, but no God-concept I ever encountered was in line with reality or necessary to explain the reality in which we (or I) live.

Indeed - you certainly won’t find that in Christianity - the world and reality tells us to be powerful, rich, strong, independent, rich, and full of pride.

Christ tells us the opposite - to be meek, poor, weak, dependent, and humble.

Christians are fools. 1 Corintians 4:10

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Believing in God is better than the alternative, nihilism.

 

[Matthew_Light]

I can only speak for myself ofcourse, but no God-concept I ever encountered was in line with reality or necessary to explain the reality in which we (or I) live. Perhaps that’s the most important reason why I’m an atheist.

Well I agree with you strongly, no concept of what God is, is worth very much. As `Abdu’l-Baha wrote:

"This people, all of them, have pictured a god in the realm of the mind, and worship that image which they have made for themselves. And yet that image is comprehended, the human mind being the comprehender thereof, and certainly the comprehender is greater than that which lieth within its grasp; for imagination is but the branch, while mind is the root; and certainly the root is greater than the branch. Consider then, how all the peoples of the world are bowing the knee to a fancy of their own contriving, how they have created a creator within their own minds, and they call it the Fashioner of all that is—whereas in truth it is but an illusion. Thus are the people worshipping only an error of perception.

But that Essence of Essences, that Invisible of Invisibles, is sanctified above all human speculation, and never to be overtaken by the mind of man. Never shall that immemorial Reality lodge within the compass of a contingent being. His is another realm, and of that realm no understanding can be won. No access can be gained thereto; all entry is forbidden there. The utmost one can say is that Its existence can be proved, but the conditions of Its existence are unknown."

-Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha

Realizing that there are limits to what we can know rather speaks against God than in favor. If God is beyond the limits of our understanding, then no believer could reasonably say God exists. Believers certainly couldn’t say that He gave certain people a revelation or that He could save us from death. It seems to me that it is the believer who doesn’t understand the limitations of our knowledge (at this point in space and time).

We cannot ever hope to actually understand the Ultimate Reality that believers call God and atheists call “the laws of nature”. But we can learn about it through different avenues of investigation.

For example, regarding “saving us from death”, there is a plethora of evidence about that from people who have had near-death experiences.

 

[steve_b]

little g in this case, any god will do. Is there a reasonable answer this question?

Is Atheism a Belief or a Lack of Belief?

The same holds true for eternity. When we die is that it, lights out for all eternity, or is there another life to come? There have been plenty of people who tell stories of the after life. Do you have a reason to believe them? What if you’re wrong to NOT believe?

 

[Cheiron]

God gave Adam and Eve the choice to reject Him, and He gave them (and all humanity) the reasoning capacity to think about it. The reason Adam and Eve stayed as long as they did is because it turns out that God is pretty cool to hang around, and it took an irrational appeal to pride to break the bond between God and Adam.

If Adam and Eve did have the mental capacity to separate good from evil, they might have seen the snake for who he was. God punishes Adam and Eve for disobeying Him, but the problem for me is that God doesn’t want Adam and Eve to gain ‘knowledge of good and evil’.

I consider the whole story a myth, but even as a morality tale, it’s not a good story.

This is a very good question, and I don’t really have a good answer to it, but I have a passable one (as far as I’m concerned). I just have to assume that God is smarter than me and knows what He’s doing, even though I, with my limited capacity to see the big picture, can’t see the whole thing.

That is very honest of you and I appreciate it. From that perspective, God - if He exists - might want me to be an atheist for some goal in the future.

… except Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne.

Seriously, though. I’ll take an Old Atheist (Nietzsche, Sartre, etc.) any day of the week, but the Hitchens-Coyne-Dawkins club annoys me to no end.

I’d like to separate Hitchens from the others. Hitchens often said that he was glad there was very little evidence for God and most of his book ‘God is not Great’ is about the appaling behaviour of a lot of theists. His atheism was more political. Coyne and Dawkins see God as a scientific hypothesis that failed. The late Victor Stenger wrote a book called “God, the Failed Hypothesis” about the idea that the Christian God intervenes with reality in a way that we should be able to detect. Since no evidence of God’s intervention has been discovered, we should conclude that God does not exist (or better: fails as a hypothesis). Hitchens wrote in “The Portable Atheist” that Stenger went further than he wanted to go. Hitchens have always maintained a position along the lines of: “I don’t know if God exists, but I do know that you can’t know it either.”

I don’t know much about Nietzsche and nothing about Sartre, so I don’t know in what way the New Atheists differ from the Old Atheists.

 

[Cheiron]

Indeed - you certainly won’t find that in Christianity - the world and reality tells us to be powerful, rich, strong, independent, rich, and full of pride.

Christ tells us the opposite - to be meek, poor, weak, dependent, and humble.

Christians are fools. 1 Corintians 4:10

If that’s what Christ really meant, then Christianity disappeared the moment Theodosius II outlawed every single religion except Christianity.

Believing in God is better than the alternative, nihilism.

False dilemma. A lot of atheists and agnostics give their lives purpose. It really depends on one’s idea of what’s meaningful, I guess.

Well I agree with you strongly, no concept of what God is, is worth very much. As `Abdu’l-Baha wrote:

"This people, all of them, have pictured a god in the realm of the mind, and worship that image which they have made for themselves. And yet that image is comprehended, the human mind being the comprehender thereof, and certainly the comprehender is greater than that which lieth within its grasp; for imagination is but the branch, while mind is the root; and certainly the root is greater than the branch. Consider then, how all the peoples of the world are bowing the knee to a fancy of their own contriving, how they have created a creator within their own minds, and they call it the Fashioner of all that is—whereas in truth it is but an illusion. Thus are the people worshipping only an error of perception.

But that Essence of Essences, that Invisible of Invisibles, is sanctified above all human speculation, and never to be overtaken by the mind of man. Never shall that immemorial Reality lodge within the compass of a contingent being. His is another realm, and of that realm no understanding can be won. No access can be gained thereto; all entry is forbidden there. The utmost one can say is that Its existence can be proved, but the conditions of Its existence are unknown."

-Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha

We cannot ever hope to actually understand the Ultimate Reality that believers call God and atheists call “the laws of nature”. But we can learn about it through different avenues of investigation.

For example, regarding “saving us from death”, there is a plethora of evidence about that from people who have had near-death experiences.

People who had a near-death experience didn’t actually die. So I don’t think that counts. I’m glad you agreed with me, but I do want to emphasize the difference between us. If God is beyond our understanding, then that’s where the conversation stops as far as I’m concerned. But mr. Abdu’l-Baha continues talking about the “Essence of Essences, that Invisible of Invisibles” Given our definition of God, I consider all that mere speculation.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

False dilemma. A lot of atheists and agnostics give their lives purpose. It really depends on one’s idea of what’s meaningful, I guess.

They give themselves a subjective meaning in the absence of an objective meaning. They purposefully ignore their own pointlessness because one cannot live that way of life in a way which is consistent or purposeful.

Not that I blame the nihilist, in the absence of anything meaningful it is better to live with an illusion than the pointless reality.

 

[benjohnson]

If that’s what Christ really meant, then Christianity disappeared the moment Theodosius II outlawed every single religion except Christianity.

Christians follow Christ, not dead Roman emperors.

And, I’ll beat you to the punch, the Christian Church is a hospital for sinners - that includes all of us hypocritical Christians like myself.

 

[Cheiron]

They give themselves a subjective meaning in the absence of an objective meaning. They purposefully ignore their own pointlessness because one cannot live that way of life in a way which is consistent or purposeful.

Not that I blame the nihilist, in the absence of anything meaningful it is better to live with an illusion than the pointless reality.

I’m not sure what it means to have an objective meaning to my life. I give purpose to my own life and I wouldn’t want it any other way. If God (or anyone else) told me what the purpose of my life was, then I would be extremely unhappy. I want to be the captain of my own ship, of my own body. Others might disagree with my choices, but I really don’t care if I live a meaningful life according to the standards of other people.

That doesn’t mean I’m deaf to their advice though.

Christians follow Christ, not dead Roman emperors.

And, I’ll beat you to the punch, the Christian Church is a hospital for sinners - that includes all of us hypocritical Christians like myself.

My point was that Christians don’t follow Christ, according to your definition. Most Christians I know are not humble, poor, weak, dependent and meek.

My original point though was not a moral one. When I said that God isn’t in line with reality or necessary to explain reality, I meant that God as a scientific hypothesis fails.

 

[josh987654321]

Do you not consider it a good thing that people have to think about morality themselves? This is one of the reasons I could never accept Christianity: the Genesis story clearly states that God wanted Adam and Eve to obey him, without thinking for themselves wether they did the moral thing. Having been brought up in post World War II, I know that befehl ist befehl or ‘the Nuremburg defense’ is a reprehensible thing. It was rightly thrown out by the judges. Yet this is what God demanded of Adam and Eve.

The error in this is that God is not a Nazi. God is good, in it’s entirety, He is the source of all that is good, so when Satan tempts them to gain the knowledge of good and evil, really he is tempting them to turn away from God and learn evil and embrace falsehood, since we are fallible creatures, knowledge of good and evil will result in evil due to our fallibility and the ability for the Devil to corrupt what is good.

It’s kind of like Star Wars Episode III, where the Sith Lord explains to Anakin (Darth Vader), that if one wishes to become truly wise and powerful, one must study all aspects of the force, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I’m not sure what it means to have an objective meaning to my life. I give purpose to my own life and I wouldn’t want it any other way. If God (or anyone else) told me what the purpose of my life was, then I would be extremely unhappy. I want to be the captain of my own ship, of my own body. Others might disagree with my choices, but I really don’t care if I live a meaningful life according to the standards of other people.

That doesn’t mean I’m deaf to their advice though.

ls.

It means there is something outside yourself to which you are accountable to, morally, spiritually and purposefully. You want to be the captain of your own ship yet where are you sailing to? You have to create an imaginary island to sail to and that is the goal, not one that actually exists. Then when you accomplish that goal then what? Create another imaginary Island for yourself? I don’t much like metaphor though it is helpful in this case.

To say you don’t care about living a meaningful life according to the standards of others, what makes your determination of a meaningful life meaningful in itself? Nothing as far as I can see. It’s an illusion.

 

[rcwitness]

I’m not sure what it means to have an objective meaning to my life. I give purpose to my own life and I wouldn’t want it any other way. If God (or anyone else) told me what the purpose of my life was, then I would be extremely unhappy.
Ecclesiastical 12

The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

I want to be the captain of my own ship, of my own body. Others might disagree with my choices, but I really don’t care if I live a meaningful life according to the standards of other people.

The Scriptures speak of self control. A wise man is under control of his actions. Good and righteous actions will not be from our natural ways, but heeding to the way of the Spirit. It is not “other people” but the Giver of Life Himself.

My point was that Christians don’t follow Christ, according to your definition. Most Christians I know are not humble, poor, weak, dependent and meek.

At least they are professing Christ as the Lord. Are they doing this? And then are being hypocrites? Well, maybe that is worse than an unbeliever.

Hypocrites are a burden to the Church, this is the Truth! But I thank God for being merciful and patient when I have been a hypocrate!

 

[WillyAL]

You have to create an imaginary island to sail to and that is the goal, not one that actually exists.

I have heard the very same thing said of those who claim to live according to religious teachings.

 

[Matthew_Light]

People who had a near-death experience didn’t actually die. So I don’t think that counts.

Sounds like you prefer crisis apparitions then.

cnn.com/2011/09/23/living/crisis-apparitions/

 

[Wannano]

The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
The Scriptures speak of self control. A wise man is under control of his actions. Good and righteous actions will not be from our natural ways, but heeding to the way of the Spirit. It is not “other people” but the Giver of Life Himself.

At least they are professing Christ as the Lord. Are they doing this? And then are being hypocrites? Well, maybe that is worse than an unbeliever.

Hypocrites are a burden to the Church, this is the Truth! But I thank God for being merciful and patient when I have been a hypocrate!

Whether one is a believer or unbeliever, if he is going to hide behind a hypocrite he has to be smaller than the hypocrite!

 

[Squidyman]

I basically never post here, mostly reading. But I too am curious as to what the best logical answer there is to “why God”. I’m a young Catholic who’s entire faith is dangling by the argument of God being the first causer. I’d like to have more substantial proof than that, the standard “Jesus loves me this I know” line , and the threat of going to Hell :blackeye:. Sure it’s crazy we’re here but it also took a lot of tries for evolution to get it right. I think Christianity is great but it also could be there were a lot of delusional people scared by lightning and burning bushes playing the telephone game (remember psychology didn’t exist till the 1850s and much of what was said was poorly documented ). So I too am looking for a logical reason why.

 

[Reuben_J]

I basically never post here, mostly reading. But I too am curious as to what the best logical answer there is to “why God”. I’m a young Catholic who’s entire faith is dangling by the argument of God being the first causer. I’d like to have more substantial proof than that, the standard “Jesus loves me this I know” line , and the threat of going to Hell :blackeye:. Sure it’s crazy we’re here but it also took a lot of tries for evolution to get it right. I think Christianity is great but it also could be there were a lot of delusional people scared by lightning and burning bushes playing the telephone game (remember psychology didn’t exist till the 1850s and much of what was said was poorly documented ). So I too am looking for a logical reason why.

If you ask ten persons you may get ten answers to this question.

To me there is no logical reason, at least none that could satisfy you the way you want it.

One way to approach this question, why God, is to work it from top down. God exists. Then find out why and how.

Thus it separates the believers and the non-believers – the decision made there decides which one you are.

Ironically we are either believers or non-believers, which in itself is self-explanatory. It is about belief.

 

[Squidyman]

If you ask ten persons you may get ten answers to this question.

To me there is no logical reason, at least none that could satisfy you the way you want it.

One way to approach this question, why God, is to work it from top down. God exists. Then find out why and how.

Thus it separates the believers and the non-believers – the decision made there decides which one you are.

Ironically we are either believers or non-believers, which in itself is self-explanatory. It is about belief.

So would that make me a believer or a non believer? I don’t want to believe. I want to know. I’m an electrical engineer. I don’t believe my math is correct, I have a way of verifying my solution. Scientologists believe that they are Thetans that have innumerable past lives and we came from extraterrestrial creatures. I don’t want to be down on their level of just "believing ", I’m smarter than that.

I also know that from the third law of thermodynamics that something has to cause something else to happen, entropy. My current hypothesis is that God (the uncaused) lit the match (caused) the Big Bang so to speak. The universe cannot have gone on forever because a single point in spacetime couldn’t exist. This is why I know God exists.