S
Stepson
Guest
"For those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it.”
- Status
H
hn160
Guest
If Luther had not come along and did not have the protection of Frederick III of Saxony, the Catholic Church would have had him killed as they did the other reformers such as Jan Hus.
The corruption of the Church and the Popes would have continued, The Popes were more concerned of playing of the Kings of France, Spain and the Emperor of Holy Roman Empire and getting riches for the Church than reforming the Church. So don’t give me that baloney that the Church didn’t need reforming and that the Pope would have done it.
Lutheran Theology is Christ centered and cross focused.
The corruption of the Church and the Popes would have continued, The Popes were more concerned of playing of the Kings of France, Spain and the Emperor of Holy Roman Empire and getting riches for the Church than reforming the Church. So don’t give me that baloney that the Church didn’t need reforming and that the Pope would have done it.
Lutheran Theology is Christ centered and cross focused.
G
guanophore
Guest
hn, the Church has Christ as her Head. Jesus does not just kill those who don’t believe in Him. He lets them walk away. There are many examples of this in Scripture. The Church does not, and cannot “kill” anyone. As the Holy Bride of Christ, she is incapable of such a deed.
Besides, if Luther had focused on the reform of his own soul, maybe things would have gone differently.
The Church is incorruptible, hn, because her soul is the Holy Spirit.
However, there are many corrupt persons attached to her, and some of them have been popes. The presence of the Holy does not prevent corruption on the earth.
Certainly it was high time that the Popes got out of politics. If it were not triggered by Luther, something else would have triggered it.
The Church never needs reform, though. People need reform.
Yes, most of the Apostolic Teachings that came to it through the Catholic Church have been retained, thanks be to God.Lutheran Theology is Christ centered and cross focused.
V
VeritasLuxMea
Guest
I agree. Why should anyone read Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, etc.?
Yeah, who cares???
Yeah, who cares???
C
Contarini
Guest
Lutherans prefer to call themselves “evangelicals.” However, since other early “evangelicals” differed with Luther on important points, Lutherans reluctantly accepted the term “Lutheran” to distinguish themselves from other evangelicals. This is all the more needed now, since the term “evangelical” in English has come to refer to the heirs of Pietism and Puritanism.
Edwin
M
mark_a
Guest
Why shouldn’t Christian congregations name themselves after the men who created the differentiations from Catholicism?
H
hn160
Guest
The Church leadership on earth has certainly killed enough reformers in the past, example Jan Hus, burned at the stake.hn, the Church has Christ as her Head. Jesus does not just kill those who don’t believe in Him. He lets them walk away. There are many examples of this in Scripture. The Church does not, and cannot “kill” anyone. As the Holy Bride of Christ, she is incapable of such a deed.
Besides, if Luther had focused on the reform of his own soul, maybe things would have gone differently.
The Church is incorruptible, hn, because her soul is the Holy Spirit.
However, there are many corrupt persons attached to her, and some of them have been popes. The presence of the Holy does not prevent corruption on the earth.
Certainly it was high time that the Popes got out of politics. If it were not triggered by Luther, something else would have triggered it.
The Church never needs reform, though. People need reform.
Yes, most of the Apostolic Teachings that came to it through the Catholic Church have been retained, thanks be to God.
No one is saying that Christ’s Church is corrupt, but after all Christ’s Church is more than the Roman Catholic Church, the portion of His Church that was corrupt was the Church leadership of the Roman Church and their man made rules. If it is not in Scripture and commanded by God, then it is not required or is an option.
How long do you think, that it would have taken for the Popes to get out of politics?
C
Contarini
Guest
Are you suggesting that the Popes got out of politics as a result of the Reformation, or that this was a good thing?The Church leadership on earth has certainly killed enough reformers in the past, example Jan Hus, burned at the stake.
No one is saying that Christ’s Church is corrupt, but after all Christ’s Church is more than the Roman Catholic Church, the portion of His Church that was corrupt was the Church leadership of the Roman Church and their man made rules. If it is not in Scripture and commanded by God, then it is not required or is an option.
How long do you think, that it would have taken for the Popes to get out of politics?
What are you basing this opinion on?
The bargaining power of the Papacy was certainly weakened by the Reformation and the power of civil rulers increased. That didn’t free the Church from politics–it enmeshed the Church more hopelessly in worldly politics (Protestant as well as Catholic).
The Church’s task is to show forth a different kind of politics–the politics of the Cross and Resurrection. The Church has generally done a very bad job of this. The Reformation did not help, as far as I can see.
Edwin
T
TimothyH
Guest
Lutheran baptism is valid if it follows the trinitarian form not through any virtue of the Lutheran Church or it’s founder. Lutheran baptism, when it follows the proper form, is valid because an ordained member of the clergy is not required for a valide sacrament.
I know that Lutheran’s believe in the Eucharist. But ten thousand ordained Lutherans could stand at the altar saying “This is my body” and “This is my blood” all day long and nothing would happen. It is still bread. This is because a Lutheran “priest” is not a priest, validly ordained by the only Church with the authority to do so.
Confession is available but the sacrament is not valid for the same reason. Ordained Lutherans are not priests. Only the Catholic Church has authority to ordain priests and the sacrament of holy orders is valid only within the context of Catholicism.
I have been to beautiful liturgies in Evangelical Churches. Only the Catholic Church makes Christ present and offers Christ’s sacrifice to God the Father in truth because only Catholic priests have the authority and ability to confect the sacrament, to make the change. All others are going through the motions but nothing is happening.
-Tim-
T
TimothyH
Guest
Then I would urge you to simply come home. Nobody said that there weren’t problems. Catholics are imperfect people too including Leo X and Tetzel.
My point is that only the Catholic Church has a valid Eucharist. Only the Catholic Church has a valid absolution of sins through the sacrament of pennance. This is so only because the Catholic Church has the authority to administer the sacrament of holy orders.
I will cry with joy on the day that Lutherans and Episcopalians come into full comunion with Rome. My father’s entire family is Episcopalian.
We would love you to just come home.
-Tim-
R
RyanBlack
Guest
These statements, from the perspective of the teachings of the Catholic Church, are not true. The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Assyrian Church of the East.
H
hn160
Guest
Testimony from History
The power of the keys was given to all the Apostles not to St. Peter only, also Christ said in Matt 18:20 "20 For where two or three are wgathered in my name, xthere am I among them.”
12 5. The Council of Nicaea decided that the bishop of Alexandria should administer the churches in the East and the bishop of Rome should administer the suburban churches, that is, those that were in the Roman provinces in the West.5 Originally, therefore, the authority of the Roman bishop grew out of a decision of a council and is of human right, for if the bishop of Rome had his superiority by divine right, it would not have been lawful for the council to withdraw any right from him and transfer it to the bishop of Alexandria. In fact, all the Eastern bishops should forever have sought ordination and confirmation from the Roman bishop.
13 6. Again, the Council of Nicaea decided that bishops should be elected by their own churches in the presence of one or more neighboring bishops.6 14 This was also observed in the West and in the Latin churches, as Cyprian and Augustine testify.7 For Cyprian states in his fourth letter to Cornelius:8 “Wherefore you must diligently observe and practice, according to divine tradition and apostolic usage, what is observed by us and in almost all provinces, namely, that for the proper celebration of ordinations the neighboring bishops of the same province should assemble with the people for whom a head is to be ordained, and a bishop should be elected in the presence of the people who are thoroughly acquainted with the life of each (tr-509) candidate (as we have seen it done among you in the ordination of our colleague Sabinus) in order that by the votes of all the brethren and by the judgment of the bishops assembled in their presence, the episcopate might be conferred and hands imposed on him.” 15 Cyprian calls this custom a divine tradition and an apostolic usage, and he asserts that it was observed in almost all provinces. Since, therefore, neither ordination nor confirmation were sought from the bishop of Rome in the greater part of the world, whether in Greek or Latin churches, it is quite apparent that the churches did not attribute superiority and lordship to the bishop of Rome.
16 7. Such superiority is impossible, for it is not possible for one bishop to be the overseer of all the churches in the world or for churches situated in remote places to seek ordination from him alone. It is evident that the kingdom of Christ is scattered over all the earth and that there are many churches in the East today which do not seek ordination or confirmation from the bishop of Rome. Consequently, inasmuch as such superiority is impossible and the churches in the greater part of the world never recognized or acted in accordance with it, it is quite apparent that it was not instituted.9
17 8. Many ancient synods were called and held in which the bishop of Rome did not preside — as the Council of Nicaea and many others. This also shows that the church did not then acknowledge the primacy or superiority of the bishop of Rome.
18 9. Jerome says, “If it is authority that you want, the world is greater than the city.1 Wherever there is a bishop — whether in Rome or Eugubium2 or Constantinople or Rhegium or Alexandria — he is of the same dignity and priesthood. It is the power of riches or the humility of poverty that makes a bishop superior or inferior.”3
19 10. When writing to the patriarch of Alexandria, Gregory objected to having himself designated as universal bishop.4 And in the records he states that at the Council of Chalcedon the primacy was offered to the bishop of Rome but he did not accept it.5
20 11. Finally, how can the pope be over the whole church by divine right when the church elects him and the custom gradually prevailed that the bishops of Rome were confirmed by the emperors?6
21 Again, when there had for a long time been disputes between the bishops of Rome and Constantinople over the primacy, Emperor Phocas had finally decided that the primacy should be assigned to the bishop of Rome.7 But if the ancient church had acknowledged the primacy of the Roman pontiff, this dispute could not have occurred, nor would a decree of the emperor have been necessary.
S
Stepson
Guest
That does has a beautiful ring to it. I pray that one day it will be possible and we could put the Reformation in the history book.
A major step to bridge this gap (I feel) is for Rome to admit that it had corrupt men attached to it that were practicing some pretty bad ideas. Martin Luther was reacting to this and I’ll give you that in a case or two he reacting poorly. But he still stood up for what was right. Even under the pain of death he stood up. Would this man made corruption in the Church have ended without Martin Luther. Sure but would that have been right for Martin Luther just to “go with the flow?”
Lets honestly look at the treasure of merit and selling indulgences. If you were a priest in 1517 and you saw ordained men IN the Church (not the Church), men whom took an oath before God to shepard these sheep, sheep whom could not read or write in most cases, sheep whom had to rely on YOUR word for their salvation; if you saw these sheep buying a piece of paper that guaranteed their sins and future sins would be forgiving no matter what they did, would you sit back and just hope that this damning activity would run it’s own course and eventually stop? Of course you wouldn’t.
And neither did Martin Luther.
As a Lutheran, I feel that a major healing act that Rome can do is to acknowledge this and lift the excommunication of Martin Luther.
A
amber_lux
Guest
TimothyH;:
Penance is usually is available only by appointment.
You could always observe penance the way Baptists, and Church of Christ (Non-Instrumental) do. Making a public confession of your sins and transgressions at the Sunday evening service. In front of everybody.
Amber
Those three sacraments are available at Lutheran congregations in the United States.
Penance is usually is available only by appointment.
You could always observe penance the way Baptists, and Church of Christ (Non-Instrumental) do. Making a public confession of your sins and transgressions at the Sunday evening service. In front of everybody.
It is easy to blame the 1930 Lambeth Conference for recreational sex. What that claim ignores is that recreational sex was alive and well for millennia before 1930. Pope Benedict IX, Pope Paul II, Pope Sergius III, Pope Alexander VI, are just some very well known individuals who engaged in recreational sex during the period of life that they are best known for. (On second thoughts, Pope Paul II is best known as being the first gay pope of the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, so perhaps he didn’t participate in recreational sex, per se. Merely homosexual sex.)
The number of abortions is better tracked now, than they were a century or two ago. That does not mean that there are more abortions now, than there were back than. Nor does that mean that on a per capita basis that there are more abortions now, than one or two centuries ago.
As opposed to, say, Pope Innocent III’s declaration that the demise of a foetus was not an abortion, if the foetus was not animated. Or Pope Gregory XIV, who ruled that an abortion before day 116 was canonically acceptable.
Amber
A
amber_lux
Guest
TimothyH;:
The major stumbling block with Anglican Christianity is apostolic succession. Practising lesbian priestesses officiating at Anglican services is of slightly less theological significance. However, at least one Anglican group has entered into Catholic Christianity en masse. At least one Lutheran group is embarked on the process of entering Catholic Christianity en masse. In both instances, the major differences are adiophoa.
Amber
Despite Pope Leo IX breaking the Catholic Church away from the One True Church — Orthodox Christianity — the current Catholic Magisterium teaches that Orthodox Christianity does have a valid Eucharist, and can offer a valid absolution of sins, and can administer the sacrament of holy orders.
The major stumbling block with Anglican Christianity is apostolic succession. Practising lesbian priestesses officiating at Anglican services is of slightly less theological significance. However, at least one Anglican group has entered into Catholic Christianity en masse. At least one Lutheran group is embarked on the process of entering Catholic Christianity en masse. In both instances, the major differences are adiophoa.
Amber
G
guanophore
Guest
Ok. Can you tell me where I can find this principle in the Scripture?
Oh, I think they had to be forced out. I think that Europe was teetering on the brink of political, religious, and economic meltdown, and Luther was the pebble that shook loose the avalanche.How long do you think, that it would have taken for the Popes to get out of politics?
Men are always in need of reform. The doctrines of Christ are not. The reason that the Reformation created so many splinters and fragmentations is that people were trying to rewrite the Teachings of the Apostles. This is not a workable solution to healing corruption.
G
guanophore
Guest
What would that look like to you?
Is that what you see when you read his treatises about the Jews, and the Peasants?
There will always be wolves among the sheep, just as there were before Luther, and after. He did not “end courruption”.
No, it was right for Luther to speak up about the importance of the Scriptures, and the message of grace. The problem lies in how he went about it, and that he embraced heresies in the process. The doctrines were not corrupted.
I don’t think this is possible. Luther chose to excommunicate himself by leaving the faith, and creating a new one to suit himself. He chose to stand where he was standing. The Church does not have the authority to make him move. Neither does the Church have the authority to embrace heresies, and those who create or espouse them. I hope there is another way for the healing to happen.
S
Stepson
Guest
There I would have to humbly say that I do not know the answer to that.
Peasants…Egg on his face. Although when he was writing Christian Liberty, he did not mean social liberty as well. He believed the government was put on this earth by God including the feudal system. Rising up against that, in Luther’s eyes was rising up against God. He believed that God did not want ordinary people to rule and that it was the devil that blinded and hardened that peasants and caused them to revolt. To Luther’s defense, he scolded the Princes and called for restraint in the way they were treating the peasants. Remember, Luther was up against Thomas Muntzer whom lead the peasants. Muntzer asked the peasants to kill rulers and never let their blood dry on the rebel’s weapons. Always two sides of a coin; wouldn’t you agree? Some would argue that he needed the Prince’s protection and the peasants threatened that. There could be an element of truth there as well.
As for the Jews. Egg. However, he was not alone in walking the plank on this subject. Remember the Spanish Inquisition. I believe Mel Brooks even wrote a catchy tune on that subject. But if we look at Luther’s early writing on the Jews, he believed that the purity and love of the Gospel would convert them.
He had hoped that the descendents of the ancient people of God would convert to Christ. One of his works was called That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew. In it, he criticized the Church for treating the Jews like dogs and that this was giving the Jews no good reason to convert. He gave credit to the Jew for pointing out that the pope was rejecting scripture and thought the Jews should be his allies of sorts. However, the Jews rejected this and very few converted.
Here comes the scrambled eggs. Luther became disenchanted with the Jews when they didn’t convert as he had expected and wrote the infamous The Jews and Their Lies.
In it, he repeated the traditional rumors heard by Christians about Jews poisoning wells, making off with Christian children etc… Can you hear him circling down the drain. What makes matters worse, is that there was a Rabbi (forgot the name) that was writing that Jesus was born to a menstruating Mary. Well to be honest, the would boil the human nature side in me as well. But again, as time went on, a wrong Luther started to teaching in hymns and sermon that “we” not “they” had nailed Jesus to the cross. Not exactly a full repentance but this was the middle ages. And didn’t Saint Francis of Assisi call for the execution of heretics. Sign of the ignorant times I guess.
You are absolutely right. There is corruption everywhere, in everyone and in every organization. But he took a stand against it. He probably felt as if it was the world against him. How terrifying is that. And he still went ahead and did stood up. Not everyone does that. One should give him props for that.
That is what he did do. Selling of indulgences was not very scriptural was it? As for how he went about doing it. I have and will always say (unless someone can prove otherwise) that he often had the wrong execution of the right idea. People often forget sitting in an A/C well lit room, that there was no users manual on how to go about stopping the corrupt men in the Church. So it is no surprise he didn’t get it 100% right.
Lets talk about choosing to excommunicate oneself. So Leo and Tetzel can lead people to damnation and that’s not heresy but if you speak out against that it is? I think I can speak for Lutherans by saying this
He never intended to leave the Church just stop the corruption as he saw it.As for another way of healing. I pray and hope one day we can close the Reformation. Retire it to the history books and sit down in the same pew one day. Hopefully men whom wear whiter shirts then me can figure it out.
S
Stepson
Guest
Quite a mental image. But it leaves me wondering; why tomatoes? Is there some history behind this saying?
My parents go to the AFLC (Association of Free Lutheran Congregations.) They tell me (and I’ll have to take their word for it because I have not verified it) that the pastors do not wear vestments because the founders of this Association wanted to distance themselves from the Church in Norway. Apparently the Church and the State are very intertwined there.
My parents go to the AFLC (Association of Free Lutheran Congregations.) They tell me (and I’ll have to take their word for it because I have not verified it) that the pastors do not wear vestments because the founders of this Association wanted to distance themselves from the Church in Norway. Apparently the Church and the State are very intertwined there.
S
Stepson
Guest
I figured there was something going on with the tomatoes. That recipe sounds very good by the way.
The truth is the truth. We all have parts of our history we love and other parts we slap our hand to our face and say, “What were they thinking?”
The truth is the truth. We all have parts of our history we love and other parts we slap our hand to our face and say, “What were they thinking?”
- Status