S
Stepson
Guest
Personally, I like the fingers in the ear and shouting loudly, “I’m not listing…I’m not listing.” It works when my wife is trying to argue with me

It is certainly something to think about. It was certainly something that motivated my abandonment of the faith, and something I had to resolve to come back. For me, this has been accomplished already.There I would have to humbly say that I do not know the answer to that.
I think the same is true of St. Paul, but in writing about Christian liberty, he did not have such venom. To me it is the fruit of a rageful and prideful heart, and I am suspicious of any fruit that comes from such a tree.Peasants…Egg on his face. Although when he was writing Christian Liberty, he did not mean social liberty as well.
He was kinda obligated to that, since he is the one that set the fire in the first place!To Luther’s defense, he scolded the Princes and called for restraint in the way they were treating the peasants.
Yes. I think if he had not had this, he would have been assasinated.Code:Always two sides of a coin; wouldn't you agree? Some would argue that he needed the Prince's protection and the peasants threatened that. There could be an element of truth there as well.
I think he was carrying on a long time prejudice in the Church. There were plenty of others that shared his sentiment, but Luther was bold, erudite, and widely published, so he could spread the ideas much better than the average anti-Semite cleric.Code:As for the Jews. Egg. However, he was not alone in walking the plank on this subject. Remember the Spanish Inquisition. I believe Mel Brooks even wrote a catchy tune on that subject. But if we look at Luther's early writing on the Jews, he believed that the purity and love of the Gospel would convert them.
That is a really scary read. I think it says a lot about his personality, and his neuroses.Here comes the scrambled eggs. Luther became disenchanted with the Jews when they didn’t convert as he had expected and wrote the infamous The Jews and Their Lies.![]()
I guess they really didn’t know much about the female reproductive cycle?is that there was a Rabbi (forgot the name) that was writing that Jesus was born to a menstruating Mary.
It does not sound like Francis, but you are right, it was certainly a custom at the time. WIth the conflation of Church and State, one who defied the Church ws also considered a traitor.Code:And didn't Saint Francis of Assisi call for the execution of heretics. Sign of the ignorant times I guess.
Yes, his writings indicate that he did very much feel this way. I do give him props for standing up, but I think if he had put as much fervency into addressing the logs in his own eye as he did castigating others, the effects might have been more positive. Reform was needed. Men are always in need of Reform. Reform from a place of holiness and love does not produce the fruits of fragmentation. He stood up in an unloving way.Code:He probably felt as if it was the world against him. How terrifying is that. And he still went ahead and did stood up. Not everyone does that. One should give him props for that.
This is just not the case at all. There is more than ample instruction on how to stop corruption, in the NT, in the writings of the Fathers, and in the direction of the saints and doctors of the Church. Not only that, he had access to this instruction, as a scholar and a priest. He chose not to follow that path, allowing his indignation and arrogance to rule his actions.Code:As for how he went about doing it. I have and will always say (unless someone can prove otherwise) that he often had the wrong execution of the right idea. People often forget sitting in an A/C well lit room, that there was no users manual on how to go about stopping the corrupt men in the Church. So it is no surprise he didn't get it 100% right.
Honestly, I am not sure if Leo and Tetzel were ever believers. I have not been able to find any evidence that they were even Christians. There is more available on Leo that indicates he was a grossly corrupt priest, let alone pope. In order for someone to qualify as a heretic, they need first to have believed, then willfully and knowingly chosen to go the other way. In fact, they may not have been heretics, but wolves among the sheep. I will grant that they were practicing heresies, fleecing the flock, and teaching errors.Code:Lets talk about choosing to excommunicate oneself. So Leo and Tetzel can lead people to damnation and that's not heresy but if you speak out against that it is?
I agree, but leave he did. It does not seem to me that Luther could see any distinction between the Holy Bride of Christ, and the corrupt clerics against whom he was pushing.I think I can speak for Lutherans by saying thisHe never intended to leave the Church just stop the corruption as he saw it.
Instead of point, counter point, and so forth, I can see that we have different points of view on this subject; which is absolutely fine.It is certainly something to think about. It was certainly something that motivated my abandonment of the faith, and something I had to resolve to come back. For me, this has been accomplished already.
I realize now, though, what I really wanted was for someone to take the “blame” for the wrongdoing. I also came to understand that placing blame really does not solve anything. Those that were responsible for the sins that wounded the Church have already gone to their judgement. I can get hung up on finding fault, or I can be part of the solution, and work toward unity.
I think the same is true of St. Paul, but in writing about Christian liberty, he did not have such venom. To me it is the fruit of a rageful and prideful heart, and I am suspicious of any fruit that comes from such a tree.
He was kinda obligated to that, since he is the one that set the fire in the first place!
Yes. I think if he had not had this, he would have been assasinated.
I think he was carrying on a long time prejudice in the Church. There were plenty of others that shared his sentiment, but Luther was bold, erudite, and widely published, so he could spread the ideas much better than the average anti-Semite cleric.
Unfortunately, the Nazi’s glommed onto his writings as religious support for their treatment of the Jews. I am sure he had no way of knowing how his ideas would be used.
James 3:1-3
2 For we all make many mistakes, and if any one makes no mistakes in what he says he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.
That is a really scary read. I think it says a lot about his personality, and his neuroses.
I guess they really didn’t know much about the female reproductive cycle?
It does not sound like Francis, but you are right, it was certainly a custom at the time. WIth the conflation of Church and State, one who defied the Church ws also considered a traitor.
Yes, his writings indicate that he did very much feel this way. I do give him props for standing up, but I think if he had put as much fervency into addressing the logs in his own eye as he did castigating others, the effects might have been more positive. Reform was needed. Men are always in need of Reform. Reform from a place of holiness and love does not produce the fruits of fragmentation. He stood up in an unloving way.
James 1:19-21
19 Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, 20 for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God.
Neither side kept this precept, and splitting and fragmentation resulted.
This is just not the case at all. There is more than ample instruction on how to stop corruption, in the NT, in the writings of the Fathers, and in the direction of the saints and doctors of the Church. Not only that, he had access to this instruction, as a scholar and a priest. He chose not to follow that path, allowing his indignation and arrogance to rule his actions.
Again, this occurrred on both sides.
I wonder too.I mean this with no disrespect as I honestly do not understand why a person should really care what Luther said or wrote. Why is he considered such a significant man as to warrant the naming of an entire Church for him. I find it odd that there is a whole Church that names itself for a man. I see a lot of threads about Protestants where Lutherans refer to or ask others to read his writings. Just curious as to what Lutherans have to say about this.
Well, they were baptized. . . .Honestly, I am not sure if Leo and Tetzel were ever believers. I have not been able to find any evidence that they were even Christians.
What errors did Leo teach, by Catholic standards?There is more available on Leo that indicates he was a grossly corrupt priest, let alone pope. In order for someone to qualify as a heretic, they need first to have believed, then willfully and knowingly chosen to go the other way. In fact, they may not have been heretics, but wolves among the sheep. I will grant that they were practicing heresies, fleecing the flock, and teaching errors.
Well, actually he could see such a distinction, which is why he thought that he could reject the authority of those clerics without putting himself outside the Holy Bride of Christ.I agree, but leave he did. It does not seem to me that Luther could see any distinction between the Holy Bride of Christ, and the corrupt clerics against whom he was pushing.
One can note that Luther espoused heretical views without having hate or uncharity toward him. It is not an “emotional” position at all - or at least, it need not be. Certainly it is in some cases.The persons that use the word heretic or say that someone is a wolf in sheep clothing because they don’t see eye to eye with them hopefully will take note. Their message gets overshadowed by their stronger emotions. Thanks for the forms they have been informative.
It is also of value for Catholics to understand and heal the fractures in the Church.I wonder too.
What Luther wrote I suppose has historical significance, so is of value to historians.
Otherwise, was what Luther wrote inspired? No. Was he guided by the Holy Spirit? No. Did Luther write scripture? No. And, if sola scriptura is all that is required as the ultimate authority, there is no reason to care what Luther wrote or said at all.
Have you ever read the Augsburg Confession or the Apology of the Augsburg Confession? What is heretical about them? By the way June 25th is the anniversary of the Augsburg Confession.One can note that Luther espoused heretical views without having hate or uncharity toward him. It is not an “emotional” position at all - or at least, it need not be. Certainly it is in some cases.
The reference to the wolves in sheeps clothing better describe the activities of Catholic clerics who were abusing the flock with superstitions and greed.
I am glad you are enjoying the forums. I have learned a lot here too.![]()
Did Luther write the Augsburg Confession?Have you ever read the Augsburg Confession or the Apology of the Augsburg Confession? What is heretical about them? By the way June 25th is the anniversary of the Augsburg Confession.
He helped write it and approved it before it was presented to Emperor Charles V on June 25th, 1530. additional writers were Justus Jonas, Johannes Bugenhagen, and Philipp Melanchthon. Luther wanted to go to the Diet of Augsburg but couldn’t because he was an outlaw. Don’t forget, the Catholic had a habit of burning so called heretics.Did Luther write the Augsburg Confession?
Yes, that is why the history of it is important. Not necessarily the actual content in and of itself, but of its historical significance and how to understand how the others think.It is also of value for Catholics to understand and heal the fractures in the Church.
Of course, insofar as he retained the teachings of the Apostles, those are not his teachings, but the Apostles teachings, which makes them of value.We are not in a position to judge how much of the guidance of the HS he received, or did not recieve. We know that some of his works produced bad fruit, but in many ways, he retained the Teachings of the Apostles, which are clearly moved by the HS.
Yes, too bad it wasn’t just that…He was right that the Catholic bishops needed to get out of politics. It was killing the Church.
That’s right, and we mustn’t forget that the Catholics weren’t alone in this endeavor. Calvinists and Lutherans also burned heretics.. Don’t forget, the Catholic had a habit of burning so called heretics.![]()
Catholics, Lutherans and Calvinist, all have enough blame to go around, thank goodness we talk about our differences without getting out the torch.That’s right, and we mustn’t forget that the Catholics weren’t alone in this endeavor. Calvinists and Lutherans also burned heretics.

I find that reading a variety of anti-Catholic material has helped me to understand the history of divisions in the Church.Have you ever read the Augsburg Confession or the Apology of the Augsburg Confession? What is heretical about them? By the way June 25th is the anniversary of the Augsburg Confession.
No, it was heavily influenced by his teachings, but it was composed and signed by nobles and princes. As much a poliitcal act as a religious one.Did Luther write the Augsburg Confession?
I am not sure where your introduction to the Augsburg Confession is from, but this is the Preface:I find that reading a variety of anti-Catholic material has helped me to understand the history of divisions in the Church.
To begin with, the fact that it was written at all
In the introduction it is written:
… 2] and then also concerning dissensions in the matter of our holy religion and Christian Faith, that in this matter of religion the opinions and judgments of the parties might be heard in each other’s presence; and considered and weighed 3] among ourselves in mutual charity, leniency, and kindness, in order that, after the removal and correction of such things as have been treated and understood in a different manner in the writings on either side, these matters may be settled and brought back to one simple truth and Christian concord,
He is saying that a concord at Augsburg can solve the “differences of opinion” that have emerged with regard to the faith. This means he rejects the authority appointed by Christ to govern the Church, and is substitution an alternate authority.
The Teaching of Jesus is not a matter of opinion, but of divine revelation. The confession is saying that the participants wish to jettison the custody held of that revelation in the CC and stubstitute another.
4] that for the future one pure and true religion may be embraced and maintained by us, that as we all are under one Christ and do battle under Him, so we may be able also to live in unity and concord in the one Christian Church.
And that the religion of Catholicism is not pure and true, and therefore, the participants no longer wish to be in unity and concord with Catholicism.
I believe that the Catholic Church is absolutely a wonderful, beautiful, spiritually filled Church. The one Church started by Christ. But you and I will NEVER agree on this. The Holy Father here, the Vicar of Christ was a man in which you in your own words tell us that you don’t believe was even a Christian. How can the Church be under the authority of Christ in which a non-Christian was leading.I find that reading a variety of anti-Catholic material has helped me to understand the history of divisions in the Church.
To begin with, the fact that it was written at all
In the introduction it is written:
… 2] and then also concerning dissensions in the matter of our holy religion and Christian Faith, that in this matter of religion the opinions and judgments of the parties might be heard in each other’s presence; and considered and weighed 3] among ourselves in mutual charity, leniency, and kindness, in order that, after the removal and correction of such things as have been treated and understood in a different manner in the writings on either side, these matters may be settled and brought back to one simple truth and Christian concord,
He is saying that a concord at Augsburg can solve the “differences of opinion” that have emerged with regard to the faith. This means he rejects the authority appointed by Christ to govern the Church, and is substitution an alternate authority.
The Teaching of Jesus is not a matter of opinion, but of divine revelation. The confession is saying that the participants wish to jettison the custody held of that revelation in the CC and stubstitute another.
4] that for the future one pure and true religion may be embraced and maintained by us, that as we all are under one Christ and do battle under Him, so we may be able also to live in unity and concord in the one Christian Church.
And that the religion of Catholicism is not pure and true, and therefore, the participants no longer wish to be in unity and concord with Catholicism.
Preface Continued:I find that reading a variety of anti-Catholic material has helped me to understand the history of divisions in the Church.
To begin with, the fact that it was written at all
In the introduction it is written:
… 2] and then also concerning dissensions in the matter of our holy religion and Christian Faith, that in this matter of religion the opinions and judgments of the parties might be heard in each other’s presence; and considered and weighed 3] among ourselves in mutual charity, leniency, and kindness, in order that, after the removal and correction of such things as have been treated and understood in a different manner in the writings on either side, these matters may be settled and brought back to one simple truth and Christian concord,
He is saying that a concord at Augsburg can solve the “differences of opinion” that have emerged with regard to the faith. This means he rejects the authority appointed by Christ to govern the Church, and is substitution an alternate authority.
The Teaching of Jesus is not a matter of opinion, but of divine revelation. The confession is saying that the participants wish to jettison the custody held of that revelation in the CC and stubstitute another.
4] that for the future one pure and true religion may be embraced and maintained by us, that as we all are under one Christ and do battle under Him, so we may be able also to live in unity and concord in the one Christian Church.
And that the religion of Catholicism is not pure and true, and therefore, the participants no longer wish to be in unity and concord with Catholicism.