L
lookaround
Guest
what a nice way to tell me that you think I am going to hell
- Status
P
paul_c
Guest
Well, I can’t give you more than this generic answer. I can’t tell what truths you miss, because I don’t know what you believe.
L
lookaround
Guest
L
LilyM
Guest
You’d prefer Our Lord’s nice words I suppose - ‘get behind me, Satan’ or some such.
I would never EVER presume to think that you’re going to Hell, or anything like it, or that anyone is. Not from the extremely limited information you’ve posted here. For all I know you are one of those exceptions, and I certainly pray God that you are.
I can tell you that if I were in your shoes I wouldn’t bet my immortal soul on it, though.
L
lookaround
Guest
H
Holly3278
Guest
Because the Catholic Church is the only one true Church. Because of the Eucharist. Because of confession. Because of all seven of the sacraments. Because of the priesthood. Because of the bishopric. Because it is the one and only Church that Christ founded.
L
lookaround
Guest
I disagree with one or more parts of this post
V
VociMike
Guest
Let me ask, how do you propose to find the one true Church that Christ founded, the Church which possesses completely and without error the entire revelation God gave the Apostles? By your own study? By your own force of intellect?
A
Answersplease
Guest
Do you think you can interpret the Holy Bible without The Holy Spirit?
If The Holy Spirit is guiding your interpretation, what makes you more special than other interpreters that The Holy Spirit should FAVOR YOU and NOT THEM?
If The Holy Spirit guides ALL interpreters, then why do they NOT ALL AGREE? Especially among the Protestants?
Do you think Jesus The Christ left the world a library of books (bible)?
Clearly Jesus The Christ left the world His disciples and The Holy Spirit, not merely a bible that anyone can interpret all by themselves.
Without history, the Bible is just another book, that anyone can twist to their own ends.
L
lookaround
Guest
probably not
I can be mistaken
that is why scripture is not for private interpretation
this is somewhat of an unfair question
Protestants (as you say) do agree with Protestants, just like Catholics do agree with Catholics
same as Protestants don’t agree with Protestants, just like Catholics don’t agree with Catholics
The difference is that you decided if an issue should be one we all agree on or not.
understand?
The scriptures? yes
Don’t you?
agree
probably agree (depending on what you mean)
edit- rereading your post it is possible that you don’t understand what sola scriptura is and have it confused with solo scriptura
sola scriptura is a method of checking not creating.
A
Answersplease
Guest
Ahh, group “consensus”, the question still remains, what makes your group more special so The Holy Spirit would FAVOR YOUR GROUP, and not any OTHER GROUPS?
The “Catholic group” will never compromise its accepted dogmas (the act of compromise would prove their church to be false), so they would be excluded from “your group”, that makes at least 2 groups. There are many other groups that claim the Holy Bible as their basis, even the “Mormon group” and the “Jehovah’s Witness group” as well as about 30,000 different “Protestant groups”.
“Catholics” who do not accept the Catholic Church’s dogmas have commited heresy, which incurs a latae sententiae (automatic, no formal Church action needed) excommunication.
All Catholics MUST agree on the Catholic Church’s dogmas.
The approximately 30,000 different Protestant groups (as well as the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses) still remain divided.
I would say He left His disciples some of His words and instructions, the words He did not say personally were inspired by The Holy Spirit.
The “divine inspirations” continued and were written down and stoped at the death of the last Apostle.
L
lookaround
Guest
this is not what I was talking about
I agree
Catholics agree with Catholic teachings to be Catholic
but there are things that Catholics don’t all agree on (ie Marys Assumption before or after death)
I could point to these things and say, “look, look, look Catholics don’t agree” (this is not what I am saying)
The point is that its not really fair for you to decide what is an important issue.
agree that the canon is closed
but I am surprised to hear you say that you do not believe that the bible was inspired by The Holy Spirit
Isn’t that what the nicene creed means when it says “who has spoken through the prophets”?
S
SteveGC
Guest
It confirms and creates simultaneously. Because when you go to confirm a teaching you hear, you are checking it against an extra-Apostolic creation of whatever doctrine is in question. In other words, you are checking it against an interpretation of Scripture that is either your own, or your church’s, or your bible study group, or the Lutheran confession, or the Southern Baptist Convention decrees…whatever it is…it is outside of the Church, outside of the Apostolic Tradition.
True, Sola is not the same as Solo…but they both rely ultimately on extra-apostolic interpretations of Scripture, which are in fact, erroneous and misguided creations of doctrine.
Hence, both are equally erroneous methodologies
A
Answersplease
Guest
You said that you could be wrong so the Holy Bible should not be interpreted “privately” I took that to mean group consensus, if that is not what you meant then explain more fully.
My point is, how do you or your group know that you are right, and that the Catholics and other groups (other Protestants, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.) are wrong?
You missed my point, all Catholics MUST agree on the Catholic Churches dogmas, they are non-negotiable.
Protestants as a whole do not agree with each other on both “important” and “non-important” issues.
It is logically fair that among different scriptural interpretations, there must be one that is the correct one, if God has not abandoned the Church He built.
If The Holy Spirit guides everyone then everyone should agree.
Everyone does not agree.
If you believe God has abandoned the Church He built, then you will not be able to determine who has the right scriptural interpretations since they do not all agree.
If you believe God has NOT abandoned the Church He built, then The Holy Spirit must have protected the one true Church, and among all the differing interpretations of scripture, that one true Church’s interpretations must be the correct interpretations by virtue of the aforementioned protection by The Holy Spirit.
I repeat my question, how do you or your group know, that you are right and that the other groups are wrong? What makes your interpretations better or more correct than the Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses or the approximately 30,000 different Protestant denominations?
Are you and your group guided by The Holy Spirit, and the other groups not?
Where in my post did I say that?
And if I did say that (I don’t think I did), why would you be surprised?
L
lookaround
Guest
in this we will differ
what matters is if they are a Christian
what you believe is that being a Christian is not the only thing that matters (traditional Christianity is usually defined as believing in the nicene creed and having the Holy Spirit)
true but even between you and me our similarities are greater then our differences.
If you look at my post on the basic principles of what I believe there is only one thing (sola scriptura) that you disagree with.
You might ask why are there any disagreements? To which I will answer because we are all at different stages in our faith (God works differently in different people).
This is so far from what I believe I honestly don’t know were to begin.
As a Catholic you believe that those baptized who are not Catholic are still Christian connected to the RCC in an imperfect way.
If you can understand the connection you have with another Christian then you will understand what I believe.
I apologies if I misinterpreted what you said.
I would be surprised because I don’t think the RCC teaches that the bible is uninspired.
In would recommend that you ask this question to your Priest or another Catholic (maybe on this site).
I know at a Catholic Mass after the Priest reads the Gospel he will usually say, “this is the word of God” or something to that extent. So double check.
A
Answersplease
Guest
There are Christians who would say that:
there are NON-Christians who might make it to heaven,
and Christians who might NOT make it to heaven.
Obedience to God is more important than how far you got in your journey.
If you had the knowledge and opportunity to obey God and you did not obey, then there are many who would’nt want to be in your shoes.
And who decides what a “true” Christian is? The Mormons? The Catholics? Any of the thousands of Protestant denominations? People who never belonged to any church or were never baptized or never read a Bible, but like Jesus and claim to be “Christian”?
Who decides?
You?
I happen to be arguing a case, I’m not saying I agree or disagree with anything you believe.
Back to arguing the case:
How many similarities did Judas have with the other Apostles?
“Does truth matter?” Ask Hank Hanegraaff.
Is having partial truth enough, when there is an argument that there is more to the truth?
Would it displease God if you had a piece of the truth and had heard an argument that there may be more to the truth and you could get it and did’nt?
And who gets to define what these “different stages” are? The Mormons again? Or one of the thousands of Protestant denominations? Etc. etc. etc.
I’ll make a guess that you refer to what you said in your first quote in this post: “what matters is if they are a Christian”.
I understand the connection the Catholics believe they have with their “separated brethren” Christians.
Again, I say that obedience to God is more important than how far you got in your journey.
See the rest of my answer at the top of this post.
I would be surprised too!
I don’t have a priest!
There are a lot of cafeteria Catholics, nominal Catholics, heretics, and possibly some shills on this website.
Who could I trust!
I think the Catholics would agree with you!
With who or what!
T
Thing
Guest
To realize the full significance of the consequences of the reformation;
- Were there any protestants in the first century?
- Were there just people who trusted Jesus and what the Apostles taught?
- Were there other people who did not have access to all the facts but believed everything they were taught, and would be very willing believe all they were subsequently taught?
- Were there other people, again in the first century, who believed what they personally wanted to believe about christianity irregardless of what the Church of the Apostles tried to teach them, they were obstinate in their own belief of their personal flavour of christianity?
To others who conversely did cling obstinately to their own personal beliefs about christianity the label * ‘heretic’ was applied by the Apostle;
A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: - Epistle Of Saint Paul To Titus
The heretics therefore are those who leave the safety of the One Church, by their own volition.
The reformation protestant leaders had to leave the Oneness of the Church, the Catholic Church, first, in order to then establish their own new religions. Those protestant leaders became heretics of their own volition.
People, the *congregations *of these protestant leaders, may have been ignorant of all the facts, or may have been ignorant and have acted under duress when they followed these new leaders and they may be less culpable or even not culpable at all.
*Heretic: a professed believer who *maintains *religious opinions *contrary *to those accepted by his or her church or *rejects *doctrines prescribed by that church.
L
lookaround
Guest
good question
were there any Catholics in the first century?
the Christians? yes
as we have today
Interesting note*
In some of Pauls letters it is clear that he is writing to people that stopped listening to him and although he rebukes/pleads with them he never says “you are not Christians” or “you lost your salvation”.
Apollos and some other disciples in Acts did not even know that the Holy Spirit existed.
I think today we would consider that HUGE, but they were still Christians.
yes
sadly the average Protestant belief seems to be more biblically accurate then the average Catholic belief
P
paul_c
Guest
Just like today, all the people that were in communion with the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic church were Catholics.
In Galatians 1, Paul says this:
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!
9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!
This is what Acts 18 says about Apollos:
24 A Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, an eloquent speaker, arrived in Ephesus. He was an authority on the scriptures.
25 He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord and, with ardent spirit, spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, although he knew only the baptism of John.
26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the Way (of God) more accurately.
27 And when he wanted to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. After his arrival he gave great assistance to those who had come to believe through grace.
28 He vigorously refuted the Jews in public, establishing from the scriptures that the Messiah is Jesus
Notice, although he initially only had the Baptism of John, he was eager and willing to submit to the Church authorities . this is the difference between him and Protestants.
This is a laughably untenuous statement. It simply is without basis. The Bible is a Catholic book, written by Catholics for Catholics (and it is inspired, becasue the Holy Spirit protects the Chruch from error.). It is completely ridiculous for someone who understands the Bible outside the Catholic Context, to think they understand it better than those for whom it was written.
T
Thing
Guest
Yes. Jesus Christ established only one church. There was only ever One Christianity and One Church for the practice of thet Christianity.
The Apostle recognized, even in his own day, people, ostensibly christian, who had left the teachings of that One Church and whom he now refered to as heretics, those to be avioded.
The reformation protestants defined themselves as those who opposed the One Church established by Christ.
So the only ‘protesters’ in the first century were heretics, according to St. Paul.
You have *just *stated, knowingly or not, that the Catholics who wrote and compiled the Bible believed just what they wanted to about christianity irregardless of the truth of christianity as taught by the Apostles. In other words, you have just said that the Bible which you now possess was written and compiled by heretics.
The only knowledge and the only Scriptures you possess of and about Christianity you have received these from heretics.
And these heretics, you say, have subverted the truth from the beginning. These heretics wrote the Bible. How do you know now if anything in the Bible is true, or even if christianity is true, if as you claim, the story and history of christianity was written by heretics.
It is pointless to point now to your bible and say “It is written…”, because now you know “It” was written by heretics! And it is probably all a lie from beginning to end, for all you know.
- Status