Why should pro-choicers think we sincerely think embryos are people?

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I meant “argumentation”, reasoning.
Sorry, another silly language mistake 😦
It is giving abortionists the benefit of the doubt that they are acting in good faith and not deliberately perpetrating an elaborate moral fraud.
I guess that a pro choice that thinks or suspects that abortion kills a living person and still approves it is deep in denial.

Anyway, it’s “pro choice”, not “abortionists”. Pro choice are not pro abortion neither they necessarily encourage it or think it’s a good thing. Pro choice are, simply, pro choice: to leave open the chance to choose for the mother.

It’s a straw man to call pro choice “abortionists” as it would be to call pro life “gestational slavers”.
 
It’s a straw man to call pro choice “abortionists” as it would be to call pro life “gestational slavers”.
I disagree. If they think somebody has a legitimate choice to have an abortion, you are saying abortion is acceptable.
 
I could object that most people ( both pro life and pro choice ) would immediately jump in help if they see an adult about to crack the skull of a toddler with an axe, no matter if the law says it’s ok to do so. And a large number would be willing to shoot the axe-wielder adult to stop him, if it’s the only way.
The fallacy in that statement is that it does not recognize that there would be no such law permitting killing of toddlers until the bulk of people were prepared to accept it. But I agree the dissenters would be more likely to act.
 
Peter Plato:
Pallas Athene appears to take the view that ruling bodies are, in principle, the de facto moral authorities whenever moral issues arise.
I think this was the misunderstanding of the century. 🙂

The word “right” has several meanings. One is the opposite of “left”. The second one is “proper, correct, good” etc. - the “right thing to do”. The third one is what one has the “right” to do - something that can be performed without fear of repercussion. When I used the phrase “might makes right”, I was referring to the third meaning - and I explained it, too. So I am not sure how could you have taken it in the second meaning. From the fact that I brought up the horrible injustices perpetrated by confiscating someone’s property you should have realized that I do not consider the actions of a ruling body automatically “proper, correct, or right”. But unfortunately it is a sad fact, that the “rights” of people are declared by the strongest “bully” on the block, usually the government of a nation state. (Nope, there are no “natural” rights - regardless what the Declaration of Independence says.)

As long as abortions are legal, they are not murders. In those countries where it is NOT legal, they are murders. And no whining about “innocent” human beings changes that fact. Of course it is a good old practice to demonize the other side by calling them murderers. It was used in the Middle Ages on the Jews by calling them the murderers of Christ. Looks like there is nothing new under the Sun.
 
I think this was the misunderstanding of the century. 🙂

The word “right” has several meanings. One is the opposite of “left”. The second one is “proper, correct, good” etc. - the “right thing to do”. The third one is what one has the “right” to do - something that can be performed without fear of repercussion. When I used the phrase “might makes right”, I was referring to the third meaning - and I explained it, too. So I am not sure how could you have taken it in the second meaning. From the fact that I brought up the horrible injustices perpetrated by confiscating someone’s property you should have realized that I do not consider the actions of a ruling body automatically “proper, correct, or right”. But unfortunately it is a sad fact, that the “rights” of people are declared by the strongest “bully” on the block, usually the government of a nation state. (Nope, there are no “natural” rights - regardless what the Declaration of Independence says.)

As long as abortions are legal, they are not murders. In those countries where it is NOT legal, they are murders. And no whining about “innocent” human beings changes that fact. Of course it is a good old practice to demonize the other side by calling them murderers. It was used in the Middle Ages on the Jews by calling them the murderers of Christ. Looks like there is nothing new under the Sun.
By your standards, the guards at Nazi concentration camps weren’t murderers, since killing Jews was permissible according to German law.

You ought to reconsider your claim that there is no such thing as natural rights, and your claim that there are no absolute moral norms.
 
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Prodigal_Son:
By your standards, the guards at Nazi concentration camps weren’t murderers, since killing Jews was permissible according to German law.
I am not aware that there was a “law” on the books even there. But I am not familiar with their legal system, maybe you have actual information what was and what was not codified in their legal system. But that is not relevant. Suppose that there was such an explicit law. Even in that case their laws are not applicable to our judgments. At that time in that environment it might have been “legal”, but we are free to disagree with that law (if there was one), based upon our principles.

The laws of the US are not applicable in Canada - for example. In the US there are laws which prohibit the importation of certain drugs - even for someone’s personal use - if those drugs are not approved by the FDA. These drugs are experimental and they MAY help the victims of AIDS. It is well known that the FDA has much stricter rules to allow drugs to be used in the population. Those drugs are approved in Europe, but the approval process has not run its course in the States. So importation is forbidden, even if someone despreately wants to try them, knowing full well that the drug MAY be harmful. But since they are already of the verge of death due to their illness, they want to try them - just in case. But they are not allowed. Do you agree with such laws? I don’t. Laws are only applicable in the country where they were issued - but even in that case you are free to disagree with them, and in that case you must be ready to accept the consequences.
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Prodigal_Son:
You ought to reconsider your claim that there is no such thing as natural rights, and your claim that there are no absolute moral norms.
I am always ready and willing to reconsider, if I get a rational argument which refutes my current beliefs.

“Rights” are social constructs, which describe and enumerate what actions are allowed to be performed (or not performed, as the case may be) - without the fear of repercussions (or any negative consequences). Now, some of these rights might have been endorsed in all the different human societies (not that I know of such ones), but that does not make them universal, applicable to ALL societies. To declare some “right” to be absolute or universal, one must prove that any society (real or hypothetical) would accept that “right”. And that is obviously impossible.

The same applies to moral norms. Let me describe two hypothetical societies. One is composed of predators, where the ultimate “valor” is personal bravery and ferocious killing. The other one is a society of herbivores, who value cowardice over and above anything else. You cannot expect them to have the same moral norms, or to have any overlap. Humans are omnivores, we value a balance of cooperation and competition. Our “moral” value system comes from our biology, just like the predators (competition) and the herbivores (cooperation).
 
I think this was the misunderstanding of the century. 🙂

The word “right” has several meanings. One is the opposite of “left”. The second one is “proper, correct, good” etc. - the “right thing to do”. The third one is what one has the “right” to do - something that can be performed without fear of repercussion. When I used the phrase “might makes right”, I was referring to the third meaning - and I explained it, too. So I am not sure how could you have taken it in the second meaning. From the fact that I brought up the horrible injustices perpetrated by confiscating someone’s property you should have realized that I do not consider the actions of a ruling body automatically “proper, correct, or right”. But unfortunately it is a sad fact, that the “rights” of people are declared by the strongest “bully” on the block, usually the government of a nation state. (Nope, there are no “natural” rights - regardless what the Declaration of Independence says.)

As long as abortions are legal, they are not murders. In those countries where it is NOT legal, they are murders. And no whining about “innocent” human beings changes that fact. Of course it is a good old practice to demonize the other side by calling them murderers. It was used in the Middle Ages on the Jews by calling them the murderers of Christ. Looks like there is nothing new under the Sun.
Regardless of whether the misunderstanding was as significant as you claim it was or not, I am still unclear where the misunderstanding actually was.

Your apparent third meaning of “right,” as in “might makes right,” is making use of an adage that was intended to convey that might ought not legitimately make anything morally right and so wasn’t meant to be a third meaning at all. Ergo the meaning of “right” as in your third use, as far as I understand, was meant to be the same as your second meaning – just making use of a facetious or cynical statement vis a vis those who think otherwise, i.e., think that might IS sufficient to make things morally right.

Judging by Prodigal_Son’s reply to your post, you haven’t cleared up the misunderstanding at all, but appear to be taking shelter behind an ambiguously used term – which serves only to create more confusion.

Either “moral” means something independently of “legal” or they are reducible to the same meaning, You can clear up the misunderstanding by coming clean on whether you think "right’ in the sense of “moral” supercedes the term “legal” and, furthermore, provides justification or warrant for what is legitimately to be considered “legal.” Or, you think “moral” merely means what is decided by a polity (as its set of laws) to dictate standards of behaviour. There is no third option, as much as you would like there to be.

If there is any way of determining whether a nation’s laws are just, proper or right, surely that determination must be based upon an objective standard of right, i.e., moral or ethical, independent of what existing laws are in effect at any one time and place.
 
I meant “argumentation”, reasoning.
Sorry, another silly language mistake 😦

I guess that a pro choice that thinks or suspects that abortion kills a living person and still approves it is deep in denial.

Anyway, it’s “pro choice”, not “abortionists”. Pro choice are not pro abortion neither they necessarily encourage it or think it’s a good thing. Pro choice are, simply, pro choice: to leave open the chance to choose for the mother.

It’s a straw man to call pro choice “abortionists” as it would be to call pro life “gestational slavers”.
It would be helpful if you actually read and understood the argument in the opening post. The argument proposed that pro-lifers are not taking the question of abortion (as the killing of innocents) seriously because pro-lifers are not willing either to kill those who carry out abortions (thus the word “abortionists”) nor are they willing to die trying. The argument wasn’t talking about actions against pro-choicers since pro-choicers don’t actually kill the human embryo or fetus, while ABORTIONISTS do.

See the difference?

That is why the word “abortionist” is being used to denote those who actually commit the killing. The question in the OP is addressing how the actual perpetrators of abortions (abortionists) should be responded to by pro-lifers, if they seriously view abortion as the killing of innocents carried out by ABORTIONISTS, not PRO-CHOICERS. Get it?
 
I think this was the misunderstanding of the century. 🙂

The word “right” has several meanings. One is the opposite of “left”. The second one is “proper, correct, good” etc. - the “right thing to do”. The third one is what one has the “right” to do - something that can be performed without fear of repercussion. When I used the phrase “might makes right”, I was referring to the third meaning - and I explained it, too. So I am not sure how could you have taken it in the second meaning. From the fact that I brought up the horrible injustices perpetrated by confiscating someone’s property you should have realized that I do not consider the actions of a ruling body automatically “proper, correct, or right”. But unfortunately it is a sad fact, that the “rights” of people are declared by the strongest “bully” on the block, usually the government of a nation state. (Nope, there are no “natural” rights - regardless what the Declaration of Independence says.)

As long as abortions are legal, they are not murders. In those countries where it is NOT legal, they are murders. And no whining about “innocent” human beings changes that fact. Of course it is a good old practice to demonize the other side by calling them murderers. It was used in the Middle Ages on the Jews by calling them the murderers of Christ. Looks like there is nothing new under the Sun.
There is nothing new under the sun. Subjective definitions of what is human have been used from time memorial to eliminate and enslave fellow human beings . And of course we see in this thread the euphemism defense is used
by those who support this this heinous evil . Unborn children become human tissue , great offense is taken at the use of the term pro-abortion and endless semantics arguments
started over the proper term to use when describing the dismemberment of unborn children.
 
Peter Plato:
Your apparent third meaning of “right,” as in “might makes right,” is making use of an adage that was intended to convey that might ought not legitimately make anything morally right and so wasn’t meant to be a third meaning at all. Ergo the meaning of “right” as in your third use, as far as I understand, was meant to be the same as your second meaning – just making use of a facetious or cynical statement vis a vis those who think otherwise, i.e., think that might IS sufficient to make things morally right.
I can’t help you if do not understand the distinction between the two different meanings of “right”. By the way, the believers do say that “might is right” (good, proper, moral…) when God is the one who commits the atrocities.

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Rau:
Where this appears fragile to me is that you give respect during the step from brain activity to rational entity, but not during the one from conception to brain activity. This seems fragile (and arbitrary) because the promise of rational entity exists no less at conception than it does at brain activity (probability of survival ignored). That the brain activity matters to you, but that its potential (from conception) does not, strikes me as odd. Nevertheless, it is good to know that you find most abortions still wrong, if only by virtue of their timing.
Every categorization is arbitrary. I chose the brain activity for a reason (btw, it was not my invention). During the development of an embryo, lots of changes happen, some quantitative, some qualitative. The human brain is unique in its capability of giving rise to discursive thinking. It is our only attribute which truly differentiates us from the animals - at least according to our knowledge today.

The other reason was to offer a compromise, or a concession to the “other side”. Let me waste your time with an analogy. Someone wishes to be a physician. The first step is to enroll in the medical university. This is the equivalent of the conception. During the doctor’s “gestation period” (usually five or six years) the student learns more and more, passes exams, etc. The final step is moment when she receives her diploma. This is the “magical” moment when she changes from a student to a doctor. One minute before she gets her diploma, she is already as qualified as she can be - and yet she cannot practice as a doctor. Maybe it is arbitrary. But one must draw lines in every categorization process. We declare a line and say “this” is the moment when one passes from one “box” to the next one.

For humans this should be the moment of the first breath, when the newborn is separated from the woman. This is when her biologically independent existence starts. She still needs care, but that can be given by anyone, not just the mother. The symbiosis stops at that point. This is the arbitrary moment when she ceases to be a “fetus” and becomes a “newborn”, or “infant”. Interestingly enough the biblical account talks about blowing the “soul” into Adam’s nostrils. In several languages the word “soul” is the derivative of the word “breath”. Not even the church is willing to p(name removed by moderator)oint the moment of “ensoulment”. It was a moving target during the ages, sometimes it was the first breath, then it was the “quickening”, etc…

If you have more comments or question, please go ahead.
 
Questions in above post #86…
I wanted to be as accommodating as I could. Without a working brain you only have a bunch of cells. As to your third question: even a seriously incapacitated human could be protected - the process is called “to be grandfathered in” - as long, of course it does not take away limited resources from other people, who could benefit more. But that is not applicable to the Terri Schiavo-like persistent vegetative state.
 
I wanted to be as accommodating as I could. Without a working brain you only have a bunch of cells. As to your third question: even a seriously incapacitated human could be protected - the process is called “to be grandfathered in” - as long, of course it does not take away limited resources from other people, who could benefit more. But that is not applicable to the Terri Schiavo-like persistent vegetative state.
Bit of a dodge! Or should I say, dodgy? 😉
 
I can’t help you if do not understand the distinction between the two different meanings of “right”.
I thought you said there were three meanings?

In any case, the proposed third meaning just doesn’t seem to exist in the way you think it does. You claim (in red below) that the meaning relates somehow to a “right” to do or have something without fear of repercussion - which would be a legitimate third meaning - but then you confuse the point by throwing in the phrase “might makes right.”

The problem is that, even on the most charitable of readings and the possibility that “might” could, indeed, underwrite “right,” what the phrase would mean is that ”might” would function to make something “proper, correct, good, etc.” which is, essentially, identical to your second meaning.
The word “right” has several meanings. One is the opposite of “left”. The second one is “proper, correct, good” etc. - the “right thing to do”. **The third one is what one has the “right” to do - something that can be performed without fear of repercussion. When I used the phrase “might makes right”, I was referring to the third meaning - and I explained it, too. So I am not sure how could you have taken it in the second meaning. **From the fact that I brought up the horrible injustices perpetrated by confiscating someone’s property you should have realized that I do not consider the actions of a ruling body automatically “proper, correct, or right”. But unfortunately it is a sad fact, that the “rights” of people are declared by the strongest “bully” on the block, usually the government of a nation state. (Nope, there are no “natural” rights - regardless what the Declaration of Independence says.)
The most plausible third meaning of “right” would be the sense of positive rights, as in “rights” owed to a citizen or member of an association by the body of citizens or members. Those “rights” however, are still subject to the moral definition of “right,” as in morally “proper, correct, good, etc.” since it would be difficult to grasp how something improper or evil could be “owed” as a right to anyone, except perhaps to members belonging to intrinsically immoral bodies such as a society of thieves or legion of demons.

Even so, it is unclear as to how positive “rights” could possibly make an act by a government morally right, since positive civil rights could only be presumed to exist within the larger system of ethics that grounds the civil society or polity. In other words, “rights” that are NOT “proper, correct or good” could not be legitimately owed to citizens unless the society itself had abandoned all attempts to be morally legitimate.
By the way, the believers do say that “might is right” (good, proper, moral…) when God is the one who commits the atrocities.
I am not sure which believers say, “might is right,” since that would be taken as a disparaging remark that would be critical of a proposed justification for an action (I.e., implicit in the statement is the understanding that might, by itself, does NOT morally justify any action.) Otherwise, the word “moral” becomes, de facto, whatever acts are initiated by the most powerful body or entity.

Here, I suspect, is where your confusion lies. You seem to misconstrue the omnipotence of God (and, therefore, Being with most power) as the sufficient justification for his actions - at least, you claim “the believers” resort to such a claim. Perhaps some might, but it would be illegitimate, at best.

The classical theist claim isn’t that God’s omnipotence justifies whatever he does, but that “good” is identical with “being,” and since God is Being Itself, then what is “good” can only come from the nature of what is. “Good” can have no meaning whatsoever aside from what is - the ground of being itself.

Metaphysically speaking, Being Itself, in the Thomistic sense of Actus Purus, must, by definition, be omnipotent and could not be the source of all existence and creation without being omnipotent. Omnipotence, in this sense, is a positive requirement in order to be the source of all that is AND the source of all that is good, by definition.

This is also the case with the meaning of the word “true.” There is no sense to be made of the idea of truth unless it refers to what actually is - the nature of being or ultimate reality. Again, the same applies to the meaning of “good.” Nothing can be “good” unless its goodness is sourced in the essential Goodness of Being Itself which must be, if it is to be the source of all that exists Omnipotent or, in Biblical speak, Almighty.

Now, it may be true that God’s omnipotence is fundamentally identical to “Fullness of Being” which properly describes the nature of Being Itself and, therefore, the nature of “the Good” and “the True,” but that does not reduce to a proposition that just any demonstration of power justifies an action, which is what a morally confused individual implies by using “might makes right” to justify an action, morally speaking.
 
I’ve been watching the news lately, and I’m glad to see that some pro-lifers think that this is war. It’s about time.
 
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