Why shouldn't Catholics learn Latin?

[michaeldaniels]

Thank you…you hit the nail on the head…I am not passing judgement or holier than anyone…I am just a simple, humble, sinner trying to get to heaven…to be more precise, I was trying to say as The Catholic Church…where we have the fullness of Truth…all The Sacraments, etc…and it is no secret that a lot of Catholics still fall away for protestant Churches and there are those who remain who would like to see the Mass become nothing more than a protestant service and there are so many Catholics now a days that DO NOT believe in the Real Presence…and if they do, they don’t have enough respect for Christ to go to confession before presenting themselves for Communion…that is not being Holier than thou by stating that…it is simply the Truth.

I’m not so sure he thinks that he himself is holy, but I think what he’s trying to say is that the Catholic Church is holier than the protestant Churches. This is true. Whether we like to say it or not, the protestants are in schism and propagate heretical teachings.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Actually…this idea is expressed in a really good book I read once…it is a rather sad story, but none of the less…well written. It is called “A Canticle for Leibowitz”…Latin is essential in this book…after nuclear holocaust and the destruction of most of the world, the few remaining people on every continent are able to communicate with each other, because all the priests/monks speak Latin and are able to rebuild society/the world…very thought provoking…here is the synopsis from wikipedia:

A Canticle for Leibowitz is a post-apocalyptic science fiction novel by American Walter M. Miller, Jr., first published in 1960. Based on three short stories Miller contributed to the science fiction magazine The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction; it is the only novel published by the author during his lifetime. Considered one of the classics of science fiction, it has never been out of print and has seen over 25 reprints and editions. Appealing to mainstream and genre critics and readers alike, it won the 1961 Hugo Award for best science fiction novel.

Set in a Roman Catholic monastery in the desert of the Southwestern United States after a devastating nuclear war, the story spans thousands of years as civilization rebuilds itself. The monks of the Albertian Order of Leibowitz take up the mission of preserving the surviving remnants of man’s scientific knowledge until the day the outside world is again ready for it.

Inspired by the author’s participation in the Allied bombing of the monastery at Monte Cassino during World War II, the novel is considered a masterpiece by literary critics. It has been compared favorably with the works of Evelyn Waugh, Graham Greene, and Walker Percy, and its themes of religion, recurrence, and church versus state have generated a significant body of scholarly research. Miller’s follow-up work, Saint Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman, was published posthumously in 1997.

One thing I will say that would be awesome . . .

I know, some people will call me horrible, but wouldn’t it be neat if Catholics had their own language that they all could speak to each other.

I read this story of a Protestant missionary who brought the message of Christ to an obscure tribe in South America that had never heard the gospel before. He was a nerdy kid and spoke Latin, but he felt such a burning call to go to Venezuela . . . that he never bothered to learn Spanish before going. He ran into a priest in the airport and that’s how he got through customs and to a place to stay, because he and the priest spoke Latin to each other.

I just think it would be cool to run into some random person who speaks Mandarin only or something, and because we both share the bond of Christ we can share language and communicate.

I know, it would be rather in-clubby.

 

[Matariel]

Thank you…you hit the nail on the head…I am not passing judgement or holier than anyone…I am just a simple, humble, sinner trying to get to heaven…to be more precise, I was trying to say as The Catholic Church…where we have the fullness of Truth…all The Sacraments, etc…and it is no secret that a lot of Catholics still fall away for protestant Churches and there are those who remain who would like to see the Mass become nothing more than a protestant service and there are so many Catholics now a days that DO NOT believe in the Real Presence…and if they do, they don’t have enough respect for Christ to go to confession before presenting themselves for Communion…that is not being Holier than thou by stating that…it is simply the Truth.

Well, don’t get discouraged. There was other times when the Church was in a bad way. Like St. Catherine of Siena’s time, or back during the Aryan heresy, which caused some local churches to schism from the most holy Catholic and undivided Church.

 

[Shin]

Latin is wonderful, it is the root of so many words in other languages. You can guess so many of the meanings of the Latin words without every opening a dictionary.

I always try to place Latin prayers side by side with their English counterparts, so the potential to learn the Latin version is there.

The ideal Bible is a Vulgate/Douay, side by side.

 

[dominicandinah]

That would be great for everyone with average and above average learning abilities, but what about those that are considered “mentally-challanged”, or “learning disabled”? They have a difficult enough time trying to learn their own spoken language, let alone a new one like Latin. Not everyone has the capacity to learn a new langauge and we should not exclude “the least of these”…

 

[LilyM]

I was going to say - you learned latin at 15 and expect 40 or 60 year olds to be able to pick it up just as readily as you? Of course they can’t

And truly, some people just do have difficulties with languages exactly as others who are colour blind might struggle mightily with art, or those who are tone-deaf when it comes to music.

With mighty efforts it may be more possible than losing colour-blindness or tone-deafness, true, but still a huge struggle.

I like the idea of Latin uniting people of different nationalities.

I’ll let brotherhrolf tell you about the good old pre-Vatican 2 days when there were two parishes across the street from each other - each being of a VERY distinct nationality (one was Italian and the other Irish or some such) and never the twain did meet.

See, readings and homilies, not to mention hymns and feastdays, arent’ all in Latin, and do require a grounding in a particular culture and language for each particular parish.

The Irish parishes would celebrate St Patrick’s Day with gusto, the Italians St Joseph or St Anthony, the Mexicans the Virgen de Guadalupe and the like - regardless of Mass being in Latin or otherwise

 

[thunderballs75]

I was going to say - you learned latin at 15 and expect 40 or 60 year olds to be able to pick it up just as readily as you? Of course they can’t

And truly, some people just do have difficulties with languages exactly as others who are colour blind might struggle mightily with art, or those who are tone-deaf when it comes to music.

With mighty efforts it may be more possible than losing colour-blindness or tone-deafness, true, but still a huge struggle.

I like the idea of Latin uniting people of different nationalities.

I’ll let brotherhrolf tell you about the good old pre-Vatican 2 days when there were two parishes across the street from each other - each being of a VERY distinct nationality (one was Italian and the other Irish or some such) and never the twain did meet.

See, readings and homilies, not to mention hymns and feastdays, arent’ all in Latin, and do require a grounding in a particular culture and language for each particular parish.

The Irish parishes would celebrate St Patrick’s Day with gusto, the Italians St Joseph or St Anthony, the Mexicans the Virgen de Guadalupe and the like - regardless of Mass being in Latin or otherwise

I didn’t learn Latin at 15. I learned a few prayers. In my opinion, it would be easier for someone who is older to learn Latin. How old is our pope now? And how many languages does he speak? Learning a language is certainly not comparable to colour-blindness (trust me, I’m colorblind).

As for your anecdote. In pre-Vatican II days everyone was segregated. Race was very much a different issue then. Interracial marriage was very rare. Segregation was still legally enforced in some public places. Your example only shows what it was like pre-1960s.

I’ll tell you that at many celebrations, such as Corpus Christi, the variety of races is much more wide. In my opinion it would be highly beneficial if during times like this we could pray with each other.

 

[Matariel]

That would be great for everyone with average and above average learning abilities, but what about those that are considered “mentally-challanged”, or “learning disabled”? They have a difficult enough time trying to learn their own spoken language, let alone a new one like Latin. Not everyone has the capacity to learn a new langauge and we should not exclude “the least of these”…

That’s why you have the English right next to the Latin in the missal, for people who don’t know Latin.

 

[dominicandinah]

That’s why you have the English right next to the Latin in the missal, for people who don’t know Latin.

Again, that’s great! If they can read the English…

 

[elts1956]

I have never head anyone say they “can’t” learn Latin but most certainly did not even when the Mass was only in Latin.

In the end it probably comes down to time. People would rather pray, read the Bible, etc. etc. etc. than learn to read Latin when the benefits of doing so are rather limited for most people.

When the Mass was only in latin, way back when, the sisters taught us the pronunciations of the latin words. We then used our missels at Mass which had Latin on one side of the page and English on the other. Not a big to do.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

I was going to say - you learned latin at 15 and expect 40 or 60 year olds to be able to pick it up just as readily as you? Of course they can’t

Whoa, whoa, what’s with the age discrimination!?

 

[elts1956]

I have never head anyone say they “can’t” learn Latin but most certainly did not even when the Mass was only in Latin.

In the end it probably comes down to time. People would rather pray, read the Bible, etc. etc. etc. than learn to read Latin when the benefits of doing so are rather limited for most people.

That would be great for everyone with average and above average learning abilities, but what about those that are considered “mentally-challanged”, or “learning disabled”? They have a difficult enough time trying to learn their own spoken language, let alone a new one like Latin. Not everyone has the capacity to learn a new langauge and we should not exclude “the least of these”…

Not to disrespect the mentally impaired, neither should we NOT, for instance, have Latin in Church. If we let the sensitivity for a minority overrule the majority’s abilities, then it would be another instance of what we have in politics today. The minority over the majority. Sorry to brng politics in,.

 

[elts1956]

Again, that’s great! If they can read the English…

So what is your solution?

 

[dominicandinah]

So what is your solution?

A little more charity to those not as brilliant as you are would be a start! There is no need to be sarcastic with me!!

 

[bpbasilphx]

They are often willing to learn at least the basic prayers and words of Arabic in order to read the Quran.

---

**Yes, and look at all the trouble those Moslems who speak only a little bit of Arabic–or, for that matter, those who understand it perfectly–cause.

A friend of mine teaches in a school with a lot of Somali Moslems. They can recite the Koran in Arabic, but don’t have the slightest idea what it means. It’s just holy gibberish to them.

I’m saying nothing against learning Latin, but your analogy here just is not a good one. Try again. **

 

[Seamus_L]

You learn Latin just like you learn anything else, you study it. I think the way to go is to keep adding more and more Latin masses each year along with Latin classes. Being a Latin Mass Catholic has alot more to it than just language.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Alright. I think that is a good idea. Except Esperanto. That just sucks.

But why not just use the beautiful language which has already been the universal one for 1500 years? As I said before, if there are more Muslims in the world than Catholics, and they can learn enough Arabic to pray it, why can’t we? And most of them don’t have the need for catechesis because they follow orthodox teaching! Imagine that! Although they are not the true religion, there’s no denying they hold some truth, and maybe we could learn a little from them on this subject?

Yeah well the tricky thing I see in your analogy is that Islam and the Arabic language have a distinct Middle Eastern culture connected them and to the countries in which they are still dominant, thus speaking Arabic may still expand beyond that of religious reasons.

I can’t say the same for Latin given that people are saying that it’s a dead language now and you won’t find a country with Latin as the official language. :\

 

[Brendan]

I was going to say - you learned latin at 15 and expect 40 or 60 year olds to be able to pick it up just as readily as you? Of course they can’t

But it’s not impossible. We started homeschooling a few years ago and determined that Latin would be a good language for the kids to learn, as it’s the root of several languages, as well as being a major language in Classic liturature.

I learned the Latin Mass going to my grandmothers parish ( it was half Spanish speaking and half Anglophone (Irish with a smattering of German. When Vat II came out the pastor simply said the Mass in Latin so all could equally participate.

But my wife never had that, she grew up in a CINO house. But she simply works a few lessons before the kids and now has a much better grasp of the language than I do.

I like the idea of Latin uniting people of different nationalities.

In addition to the example of my grandmother’s parish above, I used to travel extensively for work. I would often find myself in places like Amsterdam, Germany, Korea and Brazil.

With the knowledge of the Latin Mass that my father and grandmother imparted, I could easily and readily go to a Latin Mass in any of those countries and fully and actively participate, saying the same prayers as everyone else.

That made me very conscience of those who might attend our parishes where they might not have a good command of English. It is a very Christian thing to accomdate such a visitor.

That even happened to our family once. We went to visit relatives in Canada, and had stopped for the night in a small town in Quebec. The next day was Sunday so we went to a parish near the hotel. My wife and I would have easily been the youngest attendees there if we did not have our kids. As it was, having kids there, we stood out like a sore thumb.

The priest welcomed us as we came in, and finding out we were Americans, offered to say part of the Mass in English. We said that perhaps Latin might be used.

So he said the Eucharistic Prayer and Pater Noster in Latin. The older attendees certainly remembered the responses, and our kids had paid attention to the Latin classes, so we were all able to pray together. the older folks really appreciated us being there, and remarked ( in broken English) that they liked seeing our kids there and how amazed they were that they knew the Latin ( and not a few comments on how they wished their kids and grandkids would show up for Mass on Sundays, but that seems to be a problem in Quebec.

So yes, almost any parish can have visitors who do not speak English well, and it is a very Christian thing to accomodate them in such a way that we can all worship together.

 

[LilyM]

I learned the Latin Mass going to my grandmothers parish ( it was half Spanish speaking and half Anglophone (Irish with a smattering of German. When Vat II came out the pastor simply said the Mass in Latin so all could equally participate.

In addition to the example of my grandmother’s parish above, I used to travel extensively for work. I would often find myself in places like Amsterdam, Germany, Korea and Brazil.

With the knowledge of the Latin Mass that my father and grandmother imparted, I could easily and readily go to a Latin Mass in any of those countries and fully and actively participate, saying the same prayers as everyone else.

I don’t need to travel to have your experiences - here in Australia I’ve attended Chinese Masses, Portuguese Masses, Croatian Masses. Overseas I’ve attended masses in German

I never felt I wasn’t ‘equally participating’ - I know the prayers of the Mass in English well enough to be able to follow along in any language with what the priest is saying at any point (well, apart from the homily, which of course would never be in Latin anyways) as well as what the people are saying (and silently make the responses in English).

And having my English language missal with me I also knew what the readings were. I was fully participating, and didn’t need Latin in order to do so.

So yes, almost any parish can have visitors who do not speak English well, and it is a very Christian thing to accomodate them in such a way that we can all worship together.

As opposed to parishes where NO ONE speaks Latin well because there ain’t been a native Latin speaker on God’s green earth for about 1500 years and we don’t know exactly how they spoke.

But of course it’s Christian charity to have everyone stumbling along (at least a little) in a language that isn’t their native tongue rather than 75-90% of them in a language they are fluent native speakers of.

Please please please don’t construe this as in any way meaning that I think Latin Masses are a bad idea, in any way shape or form. I emphatically don’t, and appreciate that there are benefits to having Mass in Latin.

I’m just saying that for me I can follow Mass in any other language as easily as Latin, and better in English. And I suspect most people are more likely to have my linguistic capabilities and so would feel the same.

 

[thunderballs75]

Look. All I’m saying, is that people make it out to be so impossible and ridiculous to learn Latin. Yet the Moslems learn Arabic, the Hindus learn Sanskrit, the Jews learn Hebrew. So why, especially if we are the one true religion with God on our side p), is it so impossible for us?