Why shouldn't heretics be burned?

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Well, don’t the Knights of Columbus still take an oath to “slay as many Protestants” as possible? I mean i know it’s illegal these days, but like in memory of the way things used to be.
I heard the Ancient Order of Hibernians did that, not the KofC, but I’m sure some Knights here at CAF could answer that.
To the 16 year old altar boy who said that separation of church and state is a heresy or an error, stay in school for a while longer and learn that it was separation of church and state that allowed him to practice his Catholicism just as it allows Jews to be Jewish, Muslims to be Muslim, Buddhist to be Buddhist, etc. His entire family could have been forced to be Anglican or Southern Baptist – whatever religion is in power without that. He needs to learn more about the country and how the Church has contributed to it rather than brand separation as an error.
I completely understand what you mean, and I urge you to read some of my posts written after the one you quoted. I am quite proud to have been born in America for that reason. Thank you, and I do intend to stay in school. Perhaps a year in Public school will change me drastically. Who knows? 😉
How does “The church should not be hostile to the state” and vice versa render the same meaning as the “The church should be separated from state”
In that regard, hostile would mean the same thing as separated, and that’s not true at all. Yes, Benedict XVI was against hostility, but that’s of the least consequence because if you read the titles of those addresses in the relevant article what is the undertone and implication? That Church and State should be separated, which is not what Pius IX said or wanted, hence contradiction.
I forgot to phrase it as an “error”. What I meant, is that Blessed Pius IX was calling for a “ceasefire” so to speak with the Prussians, and with the secular world as a whole. I know “hostile” and “separated” are not synonymous, however, in this context, and the fact that we are bridging 1870 and 2005, I think “hostile” is good enough a word as any to back up Blessed Pius IX’s condemnation. And yes, that isn’t what Pius IX said, but we can’t be sure that isn’t what he meant, since the cited Allocution isn’t in English. I really wish it was though.

~ Pius :knight1:
 
Since Catholicism loves “objectivity” strictly speaking the time and place of these dealings shouldn’t matter because if it’s immoral to burn and kill someone for a radical idea now, it should have always been objectively immoral back in time, if not, then that’s relativism, but I digress.
Mistakes get made which is true today as it was true back then. Knowledge and intent are key things to factoring the sinfulness of a person’s actions. The method used in the execution back then should be viewed in the light of the times and the intent of the executioners. A lot of people back then (unlike today) believed in a soul and the importance of saving ones soul so crimes that risked the salvation of souls were seen as worse than crimes against the body: with this understanding we can see why burning people at the stake was used, especially since burning was really one of the few options that would give the accused time to repent of their crimes before being dispatched to God. Many today would view this death as horrendous while those who understand the importance of the soul would still in the present day actually see the compassion in the use of a temporal fire to keep someone from experiencing an eternal one.

I’m not advocating the burning of heretics but I’m also not denying that I see the compassion which is hidden in the methods the executioners used back then.
 
I forgot to phrase it as an “error”. What I meant, is that Blessed Pius IX was calling for a “ceasefire” so to speak with the Prussians, and with the secular world as a whole. I know “hostile” and “separated” are not synonymous, however, in this context, and the fact that we are bridging 1870 and 2005, I think “hostile” is good enough a word as any to back up Blessed Pius IX’s condemnation. And yes, that isn’t what Pius IX said, but we can’t be sure that isn’t what he meant, since the cited Allocution isn’t in English. I really wish it was though.
~ Pius :knight1:
Phrase what as an error?

I am not condemning Pius IX, I completely disagree with his view but I don’t know enough about the man to even consider trying to condemning him, but that doesn’t mean I can’t wholeheartedly disagree with some of his ideas. I cannot understand the events of the period he lived in fully because I wasn’t there and therefore didn’t have a right to consider him power hungry, that I will grant. But this does not really have any bearing on my opinion of how I see his view as both contradictory to modern Church opinion and also potentially a damaging ideal if it were applied to today’s society.
 
I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death.
And *I *answer that the sin of heresy lies in the intention to deny against that which God has revealed to be true. A heretic in the truest sense, then, is one who rejects revealed truth out of pride and obstinacy. But it by no means as easy as it appeared in St. Thomas’s day to determine who has truly committed such a sin. For many persons deny the teaching of the Church out of sincerity, because they believe either that the Church does not truly teach the matter in question or that the Church does not truly have authority from God. Therefore, it is better to leave up to God the punishment of heresy, beyond the act of excommunication which is necessary for the preservation of the discipline of the Church.

I further note that St. Thomas implicitly recognizes the importance of intention in defining heresy, since he says in his reply to objection 2 that the profit arising from heresy is beside the intention of the heretic. It is now evident to most Christians, however, that many who are material heretics do indeed desire the profit of the Church. Thus, objection 2 retains its force–they are not only unwittingly serving the good of the Church but actually (in many cases) intend to do so, even if they err as to just how they are doing so.

The general rule may then be laid down that only bodily crimes should be punished with bodily punishments, while spiritual crimes should be punished only with spiritual punishments.
For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.
In the first place, I answer that the premise needs to be proved–it is by no means evident that the forgery of money ought to be punished by death.

In the second place, even if it were true, the two cases are not alike. Money derives its value solely from the determination of human beings, whether a ruler who judges that such-and-such a piece of money shall have such-and-such value or from the laws of the market, which consist of the collective estimations of many human beings.

Truth, on the other hand, does not derive its value from the determination of any human being, but from its conformity to the divine Mind. Thus, as I said above, the true heretic is the person who deliberately chooses to corrupt the truth, knowing (or at least having only vincible ignorance of the fact) that it is the truth. But because of the vagaries and complexities of the human mind, which were not sufficiently evident to St. Thomas, it is not possible to know who has committed so wicked a deed and who has not.

A further consideration is that the union between Church and State which was considered normative at the time of St. Thomas can be clearly seen to have been detrimental to the mission of the Church. The statements to the contrary by Blessed Pius IX clearly do not represent the present mind of the Church, nor are they infallible teaching with regard to faith and morals, but rather the prudential judgment of a Pope facing what reasonably appeared to him at the time to be a catastrophic change in the temporal situation of the Church.

It should be noted that until the twelfth century, while gratefully accepting the assistance of the State in many ways, the Church did not press for the death penalty to be imposed on heretics. St. Thomas was perhaps insufficiently aware of this or did not give it due weight. The situation pertaining from the twelfth through the beginning of the nineteenth century, while it seemed normative at the time, in fact should not be held up as preferable either to the preceding or the following centuries.

Therefore, the above remarks should not be understood to reject the benefit of any kind of union between the Church and the State. Such a union has many advantages as well as many disadvantages, as does separation. Neither union nor separation is an absolute good–rather, the good to be pursued is the Church’s conformity with her Lord and her mission of restoring the human race to union with God through Jesus Christ. The support of the state advances this mission, while also providing grave dangers and temptations to the Church. In this it is no different from any other kind of relationship between Church and State. (Even persecution of the Church by the State, which may seem to be the ideal relationship between Church and State given the example of the martyrs and the teaching of the early Fathers that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church, has its dangers for the Church, besides being fraught with great harm to the souls of those who inflict such persecution.) However, the practice of using the secular arm to inflict bodily penalties (particularly the death penalty) upon heretics represents one particular kind of surrender to the peculiar temptations arising from a union between Church and State.

Edwin
 
Mistakes get made which is true today as it was true back then. Knowledge and intent are key things to factoring the sinfulness of a person’s actions. The method used in the execution back then should be viewed in the light of the times and the intent of the executioners.
I agree, one cannot fully apply today’s thinking to analyze the thoughts and actions of a by-gone era, I mean this in an objective sense of analysis leaving aside the morality factor.
A lot of people back then (unlike today) believed in a soul and the importance of saving ones soul so crimes that risked the salvation of souls were seen as worse than crimes against the body: with this understanding we can see why burning people at the stake was used, especially since burning was really one of the few options that would give the accused time to repent of their crimes before being dispatched to God.
I agree with this too mostly, I can see the reasons for why things were done the way they were done. I do not agree with any notion of attempting to burn people. One, that just gets a forced confession out of them, much like beating up a suspect in a police interrogation room and often just gets them to confess things they haven’t done just to avoid the punishment, and secondly trying to burn someone is an objective evil isn’t it?
Many today would view this death as horrendous while those who understand the importance of the soul would still in the present day actually see the compassion in the use of a temporal fire to keep someone from experiencing an eternal one.
As much as I can understand the reasoning, I do not condone it and do not think it can ever be justified, since the Church teaches right and wrong are objective truths and is not subject to the passing of time, notions of “compassion” and “for the greater of good” is not a justification for committing an evil in and of itself.
 
Well, don’t the Knights of Columbus still take an oath to “slay as many Protestants” as possible? I mean i know it’s illegal these days, but like in memory of the way things used to be.
Certainly not.

That is a silly anti-Catholic fabrication–in fact, I think it is the same oath that others attribute to the Jesuits.

Edwin
 
And *I *answer that the sin of heresy lies in the intention to deny against that which God has revealed to be true. A heretic in the truest sense, then, is one who rejects revealed truth out of pride and obstinacy. But it by no means as easy as it appeared in St. Thomas’s day to determine who has truly committed such a sin. For many persons deny the teaching of the Church out of sincerity, because they believe either that the Church does not truly teach the matter in question or that the Church does not truly have authority from God. Therefore, it is better to leave up to God the punishment of heresy, beyond the act of excommunication which is necessary for the preservation of the discipline of the Church.

I further note that St. Thomas implicitly recognizes the importance of intention in defining heresy, since he says in his reply to objection 2 that the profit arising from heresy is beside the intention of the heretic. It is now evident to most Christians, however, that many who are material heretics do indeed desire the profit of the Church. Thus, objection 2 retains its force–they are not only unwittingly serving the good of the Church but actually (in many cases) intend to do so, even if they err as to just how they are doing so.

The general rule may then be laid down that only bodily crimes should be punished with bodily punishments, while spiritual crimes should be punished only with spiritual punishments.

In the first place, I answer that the premise needs to be proved–it is by no means evident that the forgery of money ought to be punished by death.

In the second place, even if it were true, the two cases are not alike. Money derives its value solely from the determination of human beings, whether a ruler who judges that such-and-such a piece of money shall have such-and-such value or from the laws of the market, which consist of the collective estimations of many human beings.

Truth, on the other hand, does not derive its value from the determination of any human being, but from its conformity to the divine Mind. Thus, as I said above, the true heretic is the person who deliberately chooses to corrupt the truth, knowing (or at least having only vincible ignorance of the fact) that it is the truth. But because of the vagaries and complexities of the human mind, which were not sufficiently evident to St. Thomas, it is not possible to know who has committed so wicked a deed and who has not.

A further consideration is that the union between Church and State which was considered normative at the time of St. Thomas can be clearly seen to have been detrimental to the mission of the Church. The statements to the contrary by Blessed Pius IX clearly do not represent the present mind of the Church, nor are they infallible teaching with regard to faith and morals, but rather the prudential judgment of a Pope facing what reasonably appeared to him at the time to be a catastrophic change in the temporal situation of the Church.

It should be noted that until the twelfth century, while gratefully accepting the assistance of the State in many ways, the Church did not press for the death penalty to be imposed on heretics. St. Thomas was perhaps insufficiently aware of this or did not give it due weight. The situation pertaining from the twelfth through the beginning of the nineteenth century, while it seemed normative at the time, in fact should not be held up as preferable either to the preceding or the following centuries.

Therefore, the above remarks should not be understood to reject the benefit of any kind of union between the Church and the State. Such a union has many advantages as well as many disadvantages, as does separation. Neither union nor separation is an absolute good–rather, the good to be pursued is the Church’s conformity with her Lord and her mission of restoring the human race to union with God through Jesus Christ. The support of the state advances this mission, while also providing grave dangers and temptations to the Church. In this it is no different from any other kind of relationship between Church and State. (Even persecution of the Church by the State, which may seem to be the ideal relationship between Church and State given the example of the martyrs and the teaching of the early Fathers that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church, has its dangers for the Church, besides being fraught with great harm to the souls of those who inflict such persecution.) However, the practice of using the secular arm to inflict bodily penalties (particularly the death penalty) upon heretics represents one particular kind of surrender to the peculiar temptations arising from a union between Church and State.

Edwin
Great post, very well structured and hits the key points.
 
Today’s methods for dealing with heretics have changed because circumstances have changed and the methods heretics use to promulgate their errors have changed. For one the secular authorities no longer burn people at the stake since they would consider it cruel and unusual punishment. Secondly the heretics back then were far more aggressive than the ones of the present day
I’m extremely dubious of this claim. Evidence? Standards of comparison?
most people ignore the fact that the heretics back then were also killing the Catholics in equally horrendous ways and so the punishment for them usually fit the crime.
Evidence for this? Certainly some “heretics” did engage in violence against Catholics. One could argue that they were simply responding to Catholic violence, but probably that is a pointless argument on both sides. Some of the violence against church officials, such as the murder of a papal emissary with possibly the tacit consent of the Count of Toulouse (though his involvement was never proven), should probably be seen primarily in terms of a power struggle between civil and religious authorities.

At any rate, there is no evidence that most people punished as heretics had themselves engaged in violence, nor was this the justification used by Aquinas and others who supported the killing of heretics.
A lot of people call this murder but I fail to see how this is the case. In the present day criminals that have done horrible crimes and that pose a danger to society are usually given the death penalty which they rightly deserve
A point that has not been raised so far is that Blessed Pope John Paul II criticized the imposition of the death penalty in any case where it was not necessary to defend the innocent, and strongly questioned whether it is so necessary in modern Western societies. I believe that the Catholic Church in America applies this teaching to the American context by opposing the death penalty. I recognize that this is not an infallible or unqualified teaching in opposition to the death penalty, and I further recognize that the political biases of many folks on this forum lead them to play down or ignore this aspect of Catholic teaching. But it is surely relevant to the present discussion.

Edwin
 
Phrase what as an error?

I am not condemning Pius IX, I completely disagree with his view but I don’t know enough about the man to even consider trying to condemning him, but that doesn’t mean I can’t wholeheartedly disagree with some of his ideas. I cannot understand the events of the period he lived in fully because I wasn’t there and therefore didn’t have a right to consider him power hungry, that I will grant. But this does not really have any bearing on my opinion of how I see his view as both contradictory to modern Church opinion and also potentially a damaging ideal if it were applied to today’s society.
His view was very controversial for his time. He was a controversial figure overall, what with Papal Infallibility, Edgardo Mortrara, and this Syllabus. Though I still hold that the views don’t contradict and that Benedict XVI’s statement was an adaptation of Pius IX’s, I see and understand your view much better than previously.

~ Pius :knight1:
 
One, that just gets a forced confession out of them, much like beating up a suspect in a police interrogation room and often just gets them to confess things they haven’t done just to avoid the punishment, and secondly trying to burn someone is an objective evil isn’t it?
I agree that this method would usually get forced confessions but I’m not going to deny that it could also produce heartfelt ones as well. Yet I agree that forced confession were probably the majority which is why the method (like torture) is seen as an objective evil: which brings us to your next point.🙂 Yes burning someone would be seen as an objective evil however the sinfulness of such an action could be lessened or removed based on the circumstance, the intent, and the knowledge of the individuals doing the burning.
 
His view was very controversial for his time. He was a controversial figure overall, what with Papal Infallibility, Edgardo Mortrara, and this Syllabus. Though I still hold that the views don’t contradict and that Benedict XVI’s statement was an adaptation of Pius IX’s, I see and understand your view much better than previously.

~ Pius :knight1:
Well I guess that is the key of point of contention that we view differently, anyhow, thanks for an interesting debate.
 
]A point that has not been raised so far is that Blessed Pope John Paul II criticized the imposition of the death penalty in any case where it was not necessary to defend the innocent, and strongly questioned whether it is so necessary in modern Western societies. I believe that the Catholic Church in America applies this teaching to the American context by opposing the death penalty. I recognize that this is not an infallible or unqualified teaching in opposition to the death penalty, and I further recognize that the political biases of many folks on this forum lead them to play down or ignore this aspect of Catholic teaching. But it is surely relevant to the present discussion.

Edwin
From what I remember it may have started earlier, from Pius XII’s time. I think it was Pius XII that removed the death penalty from the Vatican state laws, though I could be wrong. However I recall him or some pope around his time stating that it’s not immoral but it is dependent on the circumstances of the state, likewise JPII considers it unnecessary because most societies have the means to deal with criminals imposing a danger to society without killing them.
 
oh.my.goodness. Does this thread actually exist? Are some of these replies real? Surely I am hallucinating.
 
My understanding is this, not everything the Church did is perfect (i.e. capital punishment), but everything that she teaches is. Anyone care to correct me?
 
I’m extremely dubious of this claim. Evidence? Standards of comparison?
Yes simple observation is the standard that I’m using for this claim since I dont see heretics being burned at the stake today and I dont see heretics burning Catholics at the stake for not following thier errors. Are you denying that heretics killed Catholics back then for not following them?
Evidence for this? Certainly some “heretics” did engage in violence against Catholics. One could argue that they
were simply responding to Catholic violence, but probably that is a pointless argument on both sides. Some of the violence against church officials, such as the murder of a papal emissary with possibly the tacit consent of the Count of Toulouse (though his involvement was never proven), should probably be seen primarily in terms of a power struggle between civil and religious authorities.

Thanks for answering your own question my friend. Notice in my original response I did not use the words “all” or “most” before the word heretics. I simple wrote “heretics” which I’m sorry if that gave you the impression that I meant “most” or “all”.
At any rate, there is no evidence that most
people punished as heretics had themselves engaged in violence, nor was this the justification used by Aquinas and others who supported the killing of heretics.

See the above, and I’m sure it wasn’t used by Aquinas since he was concerned about attacks on Church doctrine and not which civil laws were being broken. The secular authorities would probably be the best source to see if the individuals were accused of other crimes that accompanied their heresy. Yet there is no need to provided evidence for things we both agree on and that is “some” heretics did infact kill Catholics.
A point that has not been raised so far is that Blessed Pope John Paul II criticized the imposition of the death penalty in any case where it was not necessary to defend the innocent, and strongly questioned whether it is so necessary in modern Western societies. I believe that the Catholic Church in America applies this teaching to the American context by opposing the death penalty. I recognize that this is not an infallible or unqualified teaching in opposition to the death penalty, and I further recognize that the political biases of many folks on this forum lead them to play down or ignore this aspect of Catholic teaching. But it is surely relevant to the present discussion.
As a Catholic if something is not infallible then I hold the Popes opinions on it in the highest respect. With that said I respectfully disagree with them regarding the death penalty but will obey the Church if it makes an infallible proclamation on the matter.
 
My first feeling and gut reaction is like the rest of the sane people here, how evil and immoral this is. We should not kill people who do not agree with us, that is wrong.

HOWEVER there is one thing that gives me pause on this idea… The Protestant Reformation… When I think of how many souls have been lost because of one man, I have a hard time saying maybe we should not do some extreme things from time to time…

(I am not saying that all Protestants are in or going to hell, however I don’t see how you can avoid the conclusion that a far greater % of them do then Catholics.) :signofcross:
 
It may seem harsh, but it’s true anyways! Heresy should be punished, whether by fire or some other means. Burning heretics now obviously would be counter-productive, but it is not wrong, the Church uses excommunication to deal with them now, but that’s not very practical here on Earth as most heretics already know it and don’t care, but if that’s what the Holy Father suggests then I shall stand by it, whatever he says is what we must stand by because it is bound, reason no longer suffices when clearly God wants us to follow what the Holy Father says, why else would he institute him!
Are you out of your mind??? Heresy is the root of what you believe. It was formulated in the light of heresy. Before the kerygma was set down, almost all ideas were heretical. The Patristic era was like a laboratory for heresies. The Chalcedon Definition was the result of numerous heresies that had to be addressed so that the Church could continue. I think YOU are the heretic here and belong in the 12th or 13th century. I am sure you would have enjoyed the smell of burning Cathari in the Languedoc.
 
Let us continue the debate:

There have been counterarguments made:
  1. killing heretics would result in civil war, we don’t want a civil war, so we shouldn’t want to kill heretics. A logical position formally, but materially I think it may be an appeal to emotion depending on what the word “want” means. But if it isn’t such an appeal, then I answer that it is true that sometimes, civil war is justified as many I’m sure would agree. If that’s true then something isn’t contradictory simply because it would cause a civil war.
But it is equally possible that civil war is not justified since it would be overly expensive. Here St. Thomas says **Accordingly the meaning of Our Lord’s words, “Suffer both to grow until the harvest,” must be gathered from those which precede, “lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root the wheat also together with it.” For, Augustine says (Contra Ep. Parmen. iii, 2) “these words show that when this is not to be feared, that is to say, when a man’s crime is so publicly known, and so hateful to all, that he has no defenders, or none such as might cause a schism, the severity of discipline should not slacken.” **
 
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