Why shouldn't praise and worship music be in the Mass?

[VociMike]

And that is my point. The laity have no authority to interpret Church teachings, and yet that is what we are attempting to do here.

Where did you ever pick up that notion?! We’re not proclaiming dogma here.

The Church, over the centuries, has issued many, many documents on the Liturgy. This wealth of information can be used to make any point we wish to make, because some of it overturns, or further clarifies, earlier documents. Therefore, we must leave it up to our Bishops to instruct us on Church teaching. Our Bishops in the US have allowed the use of P&W music in the Liturgy.

More accurately, they have allowed every style of music in the Liturgy.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

And that is my point. The laity have no authority to interpret Church teachings, and yet that is what we are attempting to do here. The Church, over the centuries, has issued many, many documents on the Liturgy. This wealth of information can be used to make any point we wish to make, because some of it overturns, or further clarifies, earlier documents. Therefore, we must leave it up to our Bishops to instruct us on Church teaching. Our Bishops in the US have allowed the use of P&W music in the Liturgy.

So Michael, what are some of the others?

 

[mmboys07]

Why shouldn’t praise and worship music be in the Mass?

1. It is all trash.
2. It is all trash.
3. It is all trash.

More than 3 reasons would be overkill.

 

[agapewolf]

Why shouldn’t praise and worship music be in the Mass?

1. It is all trash.
2. It is all trash.
3. It is all trash.

More than 3 reasons would be overkill.

I’ve written praise and worship music. It is my prayers crying out to God in joy or pain. It is easy to sing…simple, singable, and scriptural. I’ve had people tell me they go home and sing it every day after hearing it.

and you call it trash. thanks

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Why shouldn’t praise and worship music be in the Mass?

1. It is all trash.
2. It is all trash.
3. It is all trash.

More than 3 reasons would be overkill.

I’ll be happy to tell George Misulia of Crossroads Music that his songs “Come, Holy Spirit,” “Let The Fire Fall,” “I Worship You Alone,” “Upon This Rock,” etc. are all trash.

Better yet, YOU tell him.

 

[VociMike]

Why shouldn’t praise and worship music be in the Mass?

1. It is all trash.
2. It is all trash.
3. It is all trash.

More than 3 reasons would be overkill.

You’re not going to change any minds talking like that. If anything, you’ll cause fence-sitters to reject your position. The only issue that should be under discussion here is how suitable praise and worship music is (or is not) for the liturgy. And that judgement should be made based on the teachings of the Church as to the purposes, models and standards which apply to liturgical music. Based on those purposes, models and standards, praise and worship music is not very suitable as liturgical music (although that judgement has nothing to say about its use outside the liturgy). But to call it all trash is not the least bit useful.

 

[Michael_Welter]

So Michael, what are some of the others?

Other documents? Wow, that would take a lot of work to dig up. When I was young, my dad’s cousin, who is a priest, gave me a book, which included the Church’s teaching on music in the Liturgy. I’ve tried many times to find that book, and can’t.

I have attended Mass with Pope Benedict XVI, and have seen him preside over Mass on TV. The music at these Masses included everything from chant, to traditional choral, to contemporary P&W. So, I guess he approves of the use of many reverant styles of music in the Mass.

 

[mmboys07]

I’ll be happy to tell George Misulia of Crossroads Music that his songs “Come, Holy Spirit,” “Let The Fire Fall,” “I Worship You Alone,” “Upon This Rock,” etc. are all trash.

Better yet, YOU tell him.

1. Couldn’t recognize the tune, titles or lyrics of any of em. Probably because if any ever appear at Mass I immediatly tune out.
2. Mr. Misulia, if you are reading these boards; All of the above listed are trash. Please do not write anymore music for Mass. I offer no opinion concerning your talents to write for the top of the charts.
3. To the gentlemen in the post above: Sincerity does not make an objective argument. I don’t doubt your motive or efforts. I offer the results are not suitable for Mass. Perhaps you could team up with Mr. Misulia and write for the top fo the charts.
4. Kindergarten lesson #1: Payback hurts. Since 1969 I have endured every loss of traditional liturgy with stoic resignation. No more. I will not rest until the last guitar is smashed over the last microphone.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Kindergarten lesson #1: Payback hurts. Since 1969 I have endured every loss of traditional liturgy with stoic resignation. No more. I will not rest until the last guitar is smashed over the last microphone.

You want my guitar, sir? Come and git it.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

To the gentlemen in the post above: Sincerity does not make an objective argument.

Neither does snark.

As the OP, I asked WHY P&W should not be allowed. “It’s trash” is a fine statement of your taste, but it doesn’t answer the question.

 

[agapewolf]

First of all, I am female.

I do not write for the charts. I give my music away so others can pray with it. I desire no fame, glory, or money for this music.

Second, I wonder if people that are arguing for what they think is so intelligible understands what makes a song p/w.

1. Simple, singable, scriptural.
2. Aestheically pleasing, easy to catch on to,
   … simple cadence…ii V I…
   
   does anyone understand what that means? If you did, you would find that hymns that you find suitable also have the same simple cadence. but in fact, they are more wordy… so more difficult to sing.
   
   Also, holding long tones…brings one to want to belt out even louder to God…

Someone also here argued that p/w was harder to sing…I completely disagree… it is easier because of repetition. It might become a mantra of sorts. It’s closer to chant than old hymns are.

The last point to make…so many people seem to think that just because a person lives in 2007, they cannot possibly write quality music to be sung at Mass. Again, I disagree.

Even if you think that a p/w song doesn’t belong at mass…don’t tune it out. Let good come from it and let it aid your prayer.

I’m not saying all or even most belongs at mass, but writing it off just because you categorize it in p/w genre is not good either. Also, labeling it as trash is the exact same as telling someone their prayer is trash. I take extreme offense. My sincere prayer is not garbage.

 

[mmboys07]

I think the real solution to this will come when the Pope frees the pre-Vatican II Mass. Then I shall find a new home and leave you with your P/W and any other litrugical stuff you have a mind to come up with. You can be certain I will leave all you liturgical fascists alone. And please, please don’t get any ideas about lending your expertise to the traditional parishes that may sping up around the country.

 

[Aramis]

In regards to no prohibitions: Bovine Excrement.
The eastern rites all banned secular musical styles; even the hymns must be a capella.

There was a period when pianos were banned in the west. (NAWM mentions this.) That period is long gone, but it was part of the history.

Most of the great hymns are I IV V I or i iv V7 i. Thank you JS Bach.

ii V I is rare; not a bad thing, either, but not the normative.

I have no problem with P&W songs, when used responsibly.

Likewise, I’ve heard “A Mighty Fortress” sung in a light-metal-style, and it works. I’ve also heard “How many roads” used to good effect. If it remains useful to reach the youth, done well, and respectful, and the local bishop permits it, then it is a good thing.

 

[Faithful2]

Why shouldn’t it be in the Mass?
Here’s an article by **Bishop Morlino **which begins to address what kind of music is appropriate for use in the Mass and what kind is not –

madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-10-26/bishop.html

. It’s a great article, you should read it.

 

[Faithful2]

BTW Some Contemporary Catholic Musicians agree wholeheartedly (with the Pope) that their own music is not suitable for use in the Mass – e.g. Oremus www.oremusmusic.net. For Mass, they drop the contemporary and the guitars and they switch to very orthodox music-- Gregorian, classical and traditional hymns oremusmusic.net/press_release.php.

:extrahappy:

Here is a quote from the Madison Catholic Herald, 12/14/06: madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-12-14/editorial.html (scroll down to middle of page)

Mailbag

Liturgical music needs to fit the occasion, says musician

To the editor:

I am writing to support the bishop’s article on liturgical music. While much of the music currently being used is not bad music, it can be inappropriate for the occasion. Just like hip-hop at the president’s inauguration or pop at a graduation ceremony.

As a Catholic musician (Madison-based Catholic rock band Oremus) I face this issue all the time. I believe that popular music, while a powerful evangelization tool (and great entertainment), SHOULD NOT be played at Mass. Mass is too solemn an occasion to stand up and sing the religious equivalent of the Beatles’ I Wanna Hold Your Hand.

Liturgical music needs to fit the occasion. God is on the altar! We don’t play hip-hop at the president and God deserves better than the president!

I think there is great merit in using “guitar Mass” music at non-liturgical events: Gather Us In for a youth rally; We Are Called to end a talk on service to the poor.

Why give the president Jay-Z when you could give him the Drum Corps? Why give college graduates Britney Spears when you could give them Pomp and Circumstance? Why give God folk rock when you could give him Bach?

Oremus Catholic Rock, Madison

 

[pnewton]

The implementation of Gregorian/organ can be difficult or impossible in some parishes. My parish, for example, has not choir, no organ and no organist. There are only two or three people capable or even reading music and that is a marginal ability.

 

[LilyM]

1. Couldn’t recognize the tune, titles or lyrics of any of em. Probably because if any ever appear at Mass I immediatly tune out.
2. Mr. Misulia, if you are reading these boards; All of the above listed are trash. Please do not write anymore music for Mass. I offer no opinion concerning your talents to write for the top of the charts.
3. To the gentlemen in the post above: Sincerity does not make an objective argument. I don’t doubt your motive or efforts. I offer the results are not suitable for Mass. Perhaps you could team up with Mr. Misulia and write for the top fo the charts.
4. Kindergarten lesson #1: Payback hurts. Since 1969 I have endured every loss of traditional liturgy with stoic resignation. No more. I will not rest until the last guitar is smashed over the last microphone.

Please be more careful with your expressions in the future. There’s all the difference in the world between saying music is unsuitable in the context of Mass or other formal liturgy and simply dismissing it as ‘all trash’.

‘All trash’ implies that it shouldn’t be in the charts either. Your own paragraphs 2 and 3 indicate that this is the opposite of what you intended to say. I for one don’t like a heck of a lot of country and western music, does that mean I am entitled to dismiss it as ‘all trash’? Of course not.

If you’re angry at unsuitable music being used in the liturgy, fine. Don’t make the mistake of throwing out the baby of P&W music - which is entirely appropriate and enriching, for those who enjoy it, in many contexts outside liturgy - with the bathwater.

 

[Faithful2]

The implementation of Gregorian/organ can be difficult or impossible in some parishes. My parish, for example, has not choir, no organ and no organist. There are only two or three people capable or even reading music and that is a marginal ability.

From what I understand, I don’t think Gregorian will be used very widely. Most corrections in music will only involve dropping certain unsuitable hymns that focus on ourselves, and keeping some old traditional hymns that focus on praising and adoring God (see Bishop Morlino’s letter – madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-10-26/bishop.html . There are lots of old good beautiful simple hymns that do not require training, or accompaniment.

At our daily Mass, the priest chooses hymns and leads the congregation without accompaniment. Everybody catches on pretty fast. Our priest is very nicely steering the entire congregation in the direction the Bishops are looking for – toward more solemn, reverent music that is focused on adoration of God, rather than being focused on ourselves.

Maybe your priest can lead you, too, particulatly with the help of the Holy Spirit!

 

[PauloFreire2]

Praise and worship music is ***undignified. ***That screaming and hollering is very, very misguided. Our Medieval forefathers did not fight heathenism for the Catholic soul of Europe for over a millennia so we moderns could make a mockery of it. MASS IS A SOLEMN OCCASION.:knight1:

 

[pnewton]

Maybe your priest can lead you, too, particulatly with the help of the Holy Spirit!

You would have to hear him. He is a great parish priest, but doesn’t sing. Bless his heart, he does his best on parts that are required, though, and has led the music on rare occasions. After all, with only three of us that lead, sometimes no one is available.

BTW - I would challenge anyone that thinks a guitar can not be reverent. It surely can be, and is at my parish.