Why shouldn't praise and worship music be in the Mass?

[VociMike]

From what I understand, I don’t think Gregorian will be used very widely. Most corrections in music will only involve dropping certain unsuitable hymns that focus on ourselves, and keeping some old traditional hymns that focus on praising and adoring God (see Bishop Morlino’s letter – madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-10-26/bishop.html . There are lots of old good beautiful simple hymns that do not require training, or accompaniment.

That might or might not be the outcome, but it’s not what the Church has called for. Vatican II expressed the desire that all the faithful should know a few simple Gregorian chants for use in the Mass, and Pope Paul VI produced such a collection in 1974 in a booklet known as “Jubilate Deo”. The popes since then have reiterated this desire.

Just coming up with better hymns, while of course a good thing, doesn’t go far enough by itself. The main reason it doesn’t is that when the people sing hymns, they are still singing at the Mass rather than the ideal, which is to sing the Mass. To sing the Mass as is the ideal requires Gregorian chant or an equivalent vernacular chant. Compared to this ideal, the 4-hymn Mass that has come to be the standard in most parishes is a poor substitute.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Praise and worship music is ***undignified. ***That screaming and hollering is very, very misguided. Our Medieval forefathers did not fight heathenism for the Catholic soul of Europe for over a millennia so we moderns could make a mockery of it. MASS IS A SOLEMN OCCASION.:knight1:

So what does that mean? A dead occasion?

What if I say P&W music IS dignified? I’ve come from a more charismatic background, and I’m quite comfortable with music that praises God and not the assembly. There was a time that the organ was looked on as the work of the devil, wasn’t it?

I’m not contradicting the examples cited in posts above, just trying to expose how so much of this debate is based solely on personal taste. And I include myself in that assessment.

 

[Faithful2]

Precisely why we have Bishops and we should all listen to them!!

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Precisely why we have Bishops and we should all listen to them!!

Like this?

1. Musicians must search for and create music of quality for worship, especially the new musical settings for the new liturgical texts. They must also do the research needed to find new uses for the best of the old music. They must explore the repertory of good music used in other communions. They must find practical means of preserving and using our rich heritage of Latin chants and motets."

In the meantime, however, the words of St. Augustine should not be forgotten: “Do not allow yourselves to be offended by the imperfect while you strive for the perfect.”

1. We do a disservice to musical values, however, when we confuse the judgment of music with the judgment of musical style. Style and value are two distinct judgments. Good music of new styles is finding a happy home in the celebrations of today. To chant and polyphony we have effectively added the chorale hymn, restored responsorial singing to some extent, and employed many styles of contemporary composition. Music in folk idiom is finding acceptance in eucharistic celebrations. We must judge value within each style.

"In modern times the Church has consistently recognized and freely admitted the use of various styles of music as an aid to liturgical worship. Since the promulgation of the Constitution on the Liturgy and more especially since the introduction of vernacular languages into the liturgy, there has arisen a more pressing need for musical compositions in idioms that can be sung by the congregation and thus further communal participation."'

1. The musician has every right to insist that the music be good. But although all liturgical music should be good, not all good music is suitable to the liturgy. The musical judgment is basic but not final. There remain the liturgical and pastoral judgments.

Can we agree that there’s an awful lot left to interpretation here?

 

[VociMike]

Can we agree that there’s an awful lot left to interpretation here?

Yes, because the Church is not intent on micro-managing her art, including liturgical music. But people must look at the teachings of the Church regarding liturgical music (and there are plenty) with an open and sincere heart, rather than looking for any loophole that allows them to sneak in some music that they personally prefer.

The plain fact is that there is a permanent standard, a supreme model. That is Gregorian chant. All other liturgical music must be measured against that model. And as the Church has said time and again, not every style or composition measures up. Not everything from outside is suitable to cross the threshold. And music in the mass-media pop entertainment styles (as opposed to actual folk music, music arising from the people - see Cardinal Ratzinger on the difference) is in many fundamental ways grossly unsuited for liturgy when measured against the standards set forth by the Church. Even if it might be quite fun to listen to on the drive home from Mass.

 

[ReConverted]

I’m a convert. (Formerly Evangelical) At Mass, we are Mystically transported to the Crucifixion…we are at Calvary. Why in the world would we be doing P & W “Pop slop” music then? Do you really think Mary & the others were smiling and saying “Yay, Jesus” while he was going through such agony? Not exactly the time or place for a “Pep rally”.

 

[agapewolf]

We are also transported to the Resurrection.

Not all p/w is “pop slop” or yay Jesus. It seems people are labeling the whole genre.

P/W music has come along way since the guitar chunking, birkenstock wearing days.

There are many songs with lyrics that are very in-depth, (lots of Catholic writers now…and I’m NOT talking about haas/haugen).

First line of Holy God we praise thy Name

Holy God, we praise thy name;
Lord of all, we bow before thee;
all on earth thy scepter claim;
all in heaven above adore thee.
Infinite thy vast domain;
everlasting is thy reign.

A p/w song called Shout to the Lord Zschech/CCLI
Shout to the Lord, all the earth, let us sing.
Power and majesty, praise to the King.
Mountains bow down and the seas will roar
At the sound of Your name.
I sing for joy at the work of your hands,
Forever I’ll love You, forever I’ll stand.
Nothing compares to the promise I have in You.

All creatures of our God and king

All creatures of our God and King,
lift up your voices, let us sing:
Alleluia, alleluia!
Thou burning sun with golden beams,
thou silver moon that gently gleams,
O praise him, O praise him,
Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!

and stanza from a p/w song called O praise him

How infinite and sweet this love so rescuing
how infinitely sweet this great love that has redeemed as one we sing, O praise Him

tell me, if I didn’t label them, and you didn’t recognize the songs, where is the difference? Would you be able to tell the difference?

 

[PassthePeace1]

From what I understand, I don’t think Gregorian will be used very widely. Most corrections in music will only involve dropping certain unsuitable hymns that focus on ourselves, and keeping some old traditional hymns that focus on praising and adoring God (see Bishop Morlino’s letter – madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-10-26/bishop.html . There are lots of old good beautiful simple hymns that do not require training, or accompaniment.

At our daily Mass, the priest chooses hymns and leads the congregation without accompaniment. Everybody catches on pretty fast. Our priest is very nicely steering the entire congregation in the direction the Bishops are looking for – toward more solemn, reverent music that is focused on adoration of God, rather than being focused on ourselves.

Maybe your priest can lead you, too, particulatly with the help of the Holy Spirit!

Thanks so much for posting that link…I really enjoyed this article, I look thru the archives and read someother articles from the Bishop…how blessed ya’ll are to have such a wonderful bishop…

 

[ReConverted]

We are also transported to the Resurrection.

Not all p/w is “pop slop” or yay Jesus. It seems people are labeling the whole genre.

P/W music has come along way since the guitar chunking, birkenstock wearing days.

There are many songs with lyrics that are very in-depth, (lots of Catholic writers now…and I’m NOT talking about haas/haugen).

First line of Holy God we praise thy Name

Holy God, we praise thy name;
Lord of all, we bow before thee;
all on earth thy scepter claim;
all in heaven above adore thee.
Infinite thy vast domain;
everlasting is thy reign.

A p/w song called Shout to the Lord Zschech/CCLI
Shout to the Lord, all the earth, let us sing.
Power and majesty, praise to the King.
Mountains bow down and the seas will roar
At the sound of Your name.
I sing for joy at the work of your hands,
Forever I’ll love You, forever I’ll stand.
Nothing compares to the promise I have in You.

All creatures of our God and king

All creatures of our God and King,
lift up your voices, let us sing:
Alleluia, alleluia!
Thou burning sun with golden beams,
thou silver moon that gently gleams,
O praise him, O praise him,
Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!

and stanza from a p/w song called O praise him

How infinite and sweet this love so rescuing
how infinitely sweet this great love that has redeemed as one we sing, O praise Him

tell me, if I didn’t label them, and you didn’t recognize the songs, where is the difference? Would you be able to tell the difference?

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1547342/posts

 

[ReConverted]

The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as proper to the Roman liturgy; therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services. [Vatican Council II Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, No.116]

 

[ReConverted]

Yes, because the Church is not intent on micro-managing her art, including liturgical music. But people must look at the teachings of the Church regarding liturgical music (and there are plenty) with an open and sincere heart, rather than looking for any loophole that allows them to sneak in some music that they personally prefer.

The plain fact is that there is a permanent standard, a supreme model. That is Gregorian chant. All other liturgical music must be measured against that model. And as the Church has said time and again, not every style or composition measures up. Not everything from outside is suitable to cross the threshold. And music in the mass-media pop entertainment styles (as opposed to actual folk music, music arising from the people - see Cardinal Ratzinger on the difference) is in many fundamental ways grossly unsuited for liturgy when measured against the standards set forth by the Church. Even if it might be quite fun to listen to on the drive home from Mass.

Amen, VociMike!

Lest anyone deem me to be an old crank concerning music, I’m pretty well established in the music business. I design musical gear (Guitars & amplifiers), and I sell musical gear for a living. I also play rock drums and guitar. I have friends who are major rock stars. Having said that, I happily note that the Holy Father wants to re-establish the pride of place that is due to Gregorian Chant in the liturgy.

Rock, hip-hop, etc. can be interesting forms of music, but I fail to see how they belong in the liturgy…and Lord deliver us from the cheez-whiz pseudo-folk banality prevalent in so many parishes.

 

[Faithful2]

Thanks so much for posting that link…I really enjoyed this article, I look thru the archives and read someother articles from the Bishop…how blessed ya’ll are to have such a wonderful bishop…

Bishop Morlino is the greatest!
Everybody should have a Bishop like him.
I highly recommend that people read the archives of what he has written in the Madison Catholic Herald –madisoncatholicherald.org/pastissues.html .
Click on a date, then go to the “Bishop speaks” link on the left side.
He is a gem, he is a treasure, he is a saint in the making!

His homilies really ROCK and are broadcast by Catholic Relevant Radio.
You can find some of his **homilies on the Diocesan webpage **—
madisondiocese.org/ – go to the “Beyond Sound Bytes” box.

Can you tell I am a real Bishop Morlino fan???
Spread the word about him.
Madison is undergoing a transformation!

You can either sign up to pray a monthly rosary for Bishop Morlino, or get info on how to start a monthly rosary site for YOUR Bishop at oremusmusic.net/rosary/

.

 

[ReConverted]

Bishop Morlino is the greatest!
Everybody should have a Bishop like him.
I highly recommend that people read the archives of what he has written in the Madison Catholic Herald –madisoncatholicherald.org/pastissues.html .
Click on a date, then go to the “Bishop speaks” link on the left side.
He is a gem, he is a treasure, he is a saint in the making!

His homilies really ROCK and are broadcast by Catholic Relevant Radio.
You can find some of his **homilies on the Diocesan webpage **—
madisondiocese.org/ – go to the “Beyond Sound Bytes” box.

Can you tell I am a real Bishop Morlino fan???
Spread the word about him.
Madison is undergoing a transformation!

You can either sign up to pray a monthly rosary for Bishop Morlino, or get info on how to start a monthly rosary site for YOUR Bishop at oremusmusic.net/rosary/

.

WOW! I’m a convert who lives in California now, but I’m from Wisconsin. This Bishop sounds like he is a treasure! Y’all take good care of him! I am VERY happy for you folks out there!

I will remember your Bishop in my prayers. How are things going with the Church in Milwaukee these days?

 

[Faithful2]

WOW! I’m a convert who lives in California now, but I’m from Wisconsin. This Bishop sounds like he is a treasure! Y’all take good care of him! I am VERY happy for you folks out there!

I will remember your Bishop in my prayers. How are things going with the Church in Milwaukee these days?

. Things are going very well in Milwaukee, too. Archbishop Dolan has now been there (I’m guessing?) 5 years, and he is both a very good buddy of Bishop Morlino, and an equally good Bishop. Can’t give you any links on him, but Archbishop Dolan is definitely one of the best…

.

 

[ReConverted]

. Things are going very well in Milwaukee, too. Archbishop Dolan has now been there (I’m guessing?) 5 years, and he is both a very good buddy of Bishop Morlino, and an equally good Bishop. Can’t give you any links on him, but Archbishop Dolan is definitely one of the best…

.

I just found a link to Bishop Dolan’s sermons:
archmil.org/bishops/Audio_Dolan.asp
HI just listened to his Easter sermon on April 8, 2007 It made me SO happy…I never thought I’d hear the Gospel so forcefully proclaimed by an Archbishop of Milwaukee…there is hope in that town after all…God be praised!!! (I grew up there! LOL)

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

The implementation of Gregorian/organ can be difficult or impossible in some parishes. My parish, for example, has not choir, no organ and no organist. There are only two or three people capable or even reading music and that is a marginal ability.

This is an unfortunate fact in many of the smaller parishes in my diocese. A benefit of Gregorian chant is that an organ is not necessarily required to sing it. Any of the basic hymns or Mass parts can be sung a capella, provided that someone is capable of teaching and leading the people. Even a choir is not absolutely necessary if the people know the parts. Many monasteries are returning to the use of chant for Mass and the Divine Office, and often they do not use the organ.

 

[JButky]

tell me, if I didn’t label them, and you didn’t recognize the songs, where is the difference? Would you be able to tell the difference?

You did not posts songs only words. You are asking to discern poetry…not music…

If you played each song without words you probably would be able to distinguish quite them easily. But one would sound very secular, virtually indistinguishable from it’s secular derivatives…If you heard chant in Latin, it is exactly clear what it’s purpose is and that is why it holds a place of importance and serves as a model (along with polyphony which is a natural evolution of chant) Of course, if you heard “Crown Him with Many Crowns” You would know that it is NOT secular at all… Music or lyrics or as it is combined.

The question here is not the lyrics because they fulfill one part of the criteria for usage of music at Mass. You need to judge both the lyric and the setting individually and as a unit for proper discernment.

As I’ve said before…using “Holy God we praise thy name” set in a Sprechstimme style would not be appropriate for Mass either.

The same issues concern P/W music. The lyrics may be fine, but what is the musical context and how does that work together with the music?

Mass is PUBLIC Communal (collective) worship, not private prayer (which is probably where it more than likely belongs according to the descriptions from some of the posters here). The Church deems music to be the highest art form for liturgical use and the music itself…A combination of words and music, must be of the highest art. They must be discerned in parts and as a whole.

Repeating a phrase ad nauseum set to the same music does not approach the threshold of the level of art required for liturgical usage either. Neither does long, drawn out held notes (the antithesis of chant).

Joe B

 

[agapewolf]

The argument at the time WAS lyrics…so thats why I made the point.

If I were to play Shout to the Lord, verses Holy God we praise thy name, there is not much difference. Honestly. a little bit of a different chord progression, thats about it.

Long tones are not the same as “long drawn out notes”. Long tones, have an effect while singing of drawing someone out of themselves.

I’m also not talking about “Repeating a phrase ad nauseum”. There is no need to put words in my mouth here with negative connotations. If you were to use the same arguement, then you would be arguing against the rosary.

I’m simply talking about repetitive type phrases makes for singable material. Someone earlier argued that it makes it more difficult to sing, I disagree with that. Just like a litany (which may be done at mass for a baptism, confirmation,) or a rosary, the repetitive nature makes it easy to sing. It becomes a mantra.

I was not comparing it to chant.

 

[tkdnick]

1. Couldn’t recognize the tune, titles or lyrics of any of em. Probably because if any ever appear at Mass I immediatly tune out.
2. Mr. Misulia, if you are reading these boards; All of the above listed are trash. Please do not write anymore music for Mass. I offer no opinion concerning your talents to write for the top of the charts.

If you couldn’t recognize the tunes or lyrics, then how do you know they’re trash? Who are you to judge what is trash & what isn’t without even listening? Who are you to decide someone’s manner of praying & praising is trash?

1. Kindergarten lesson #1: Payback hurts. Since 1969 I have endured every loss of traditional liturgy with stoic resignation. No more. I will not rest until the last guitar is smashed over the last microphone.

Yeah guitars are so awful huh? Too bad the many of the Psalms were prayed with the playing of a lyre…that would be a 10 stringed instrument that is a precursor to the guitar. Terrible instrument huh? Good enough for King David and the Israelites to praise God, but don’t bring it in our church.

 

[ReConverted]

You did not posts songs only words. You are asking to discern poetry…not music…

If you played each song without words you probably would be able to distinguish quite them easily. But one would sound very secular, virtually indistinguishable from it’s secular derivatives…If you heard chant in Latin, it is exactly clear what it’s purpose is and that is why it holds a place of importance and serves as a model (along with polyphony which is a natural evolution of chant) Of course, if you heard “Crown Him with Many Crowns” You would know that it is NOT secular at all… Music or lyrics or as it is combined.

The question here is not the lyrics because they fulfill one part of the criteria for usage of music at Mass. You need to judge both the lyric and the setting individually and as a unit for proper discernment.

As I’ve said before…using “Holy God we praise thy name” set in a Sprechstimme style would not be appropriate for Mass either.

The same issues concern P/W music. The lyrics may be fine, but what is the musical context and how does that work together with the music?

Mass is PUBLIC Communal (collective) worship, not private prayer (which is probably where it more than likely belongs according to the descriptions from some of the posters here). The Church deems music to be the highest art form for liturgical use and the music itself…A combination of words and music, must be of the highest art. They must be discerned in parts and as a whole.

Repeating a phrase ad nauseum set to the same music does not approach the threshold of the level of art required for liturgical usage either. Neither does long, drawn out held notes (the antithesis of chant).

Joe B

Thank you Joe!