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Newbie2
Guest
Check this out, I think it will answer the “why” of what you’re asking:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
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mini_me640
Guest
A man can’t celebrate Mass or hear confession without ordination (aka a “license”); does that mean Mass and confession are evil? Obviously not. Requiring something to be done in the proper context and by the proper people does not mean that the act in question is evil.
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Usige
Guest
Ummm… Jesus did condemn fornication. Just look at Matthew 15:18-20
But the things which proceed out of the mouth, come forth from the heart, and those things defile a man. For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies. These are the things that defile a man.
Seems since Jesus list fornication with murder, blasphemy, etc. as things that defile a man that he considers it to be a fairly grave matter.
But the things which proceed out of the mouth, come forth from the heart, and those things defile a man. For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies. These are the things that defile a man.
Seems since Jesus list fornication with murder, blasphemy, etc. as things that defile a man that he considers it to be a fairly grave matter.
N
Newbie2
Guest
I’d be careful not to suggest that sacraments and licenses are even close in nature.
S
someperson555
Guest
well it cannot be a sin just because it feels good, otherwise heavne would be the gravest sin of all!
according to the buddhist “third way”, sex is not a sin in itself, it is our ATTACHMENT to it that is sinful. the author of the buddhist work that i was reading brought up an excellent example. he said its just like when people mistakenly say that “money is the root of all evil”, rather it is the LOVE of money which is the root of all evil and not money itself! it is the same way with sex. therefore someone can experience the pleasure of sex without being attached to it. here is a link to that article, i highly recommend you read through it, dont just dismiss it without investigation.
accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/walshe/wheel225.html
i think this could be compatible with a christian philosophy.
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mini_me640
Guest
I’m just using the terminology from the OP. He referred to marriage as a “license” to have sex. I agree that license is not the right term, but that’s why I placed in the quotation marks.I’d be careful not to suggest that sacraments and licenses are even close in nature.
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someperson555
Guest
i have read this before, it doesnt provide a reason. it just goes on repeating :“gravely immoral” but i never goes into elaboration on its reasons (which are fairly arbitrary).
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LB_in_TX
Guest
Lust is a sin because is it a major source of temptation. The temptations of lust can lead to fornication, masturbation, adultery and other perverted desires. Lust can be daydreaming about sexual acts with someone, or staring at someone thinking of what it would be like to have sex with them. This is why it is important that both sexes dress appropriately in all situations because inappropriate dress can lead to lust in someone who is weak and does not have this vice under control.
(Mt. 5:28) - “But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
(1 John 2:15) - “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If any one loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. (16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. (17) And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever.”
Offenses against Chastity, Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
[II. THE VOCATION TO CHASTITY
2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.
The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.
The integrity of the person
2338 The chaste person maintains the integrity of the powers of life and love placed in him. This integrity ensures the unity of the person; it is opposed to any behavior that would impair it. It tolerates neither a double life nor duplicity in speech.125 (Matthew 5:37) [But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes ’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.]
2339 Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. The alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy.126 (Sirach 1:22) [Self-Control: There is no excuse for unjustified anger; it can bring about your downfall. Wait and be patient, and later you will be glad you did. Keep quiet until the right time to speak, and you will gain a reputation for good sense.] "Man’s dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint. Man gains such dignity when, ridding himself of all slavery to the passions, he presses forward to his goal by freely choosing what is good and, by his diligence and skill, effectively secures for himself the means suited to this end."127
2340 Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and resist temptations will want to adopt the means for doing so: self-knowledge, practice of an ascesis (rigorous self-denial and active self-restraint) adapted to the situations that confront him, obedience to God’s commandments, exercise of the moral virtues, and fidelity to prayer. "Indeed it is through chastity that we are gathered together and led back to the unity from which we were fragmented into multiplicity."128
2341 The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.
2342 Self-mastery is a long and exacting work. One can never consider it acquired once and for all. It presupposes renewed effort at all stages of life.129 (Titus 2:1-6) The effort required can be more intense in certain periods, such as when the personality is being formed during childhood and adolescence.
2343 Chastity has laws of growth which progress through stages marked by imperfection and too often by sin. "Man . . . day by day builds himself up through his many free decisions; and so he knows, loves, and accomplishes moral good by stages of growth."130
2344 Chastity represents an eminently personal task; it also involves a cultural effort, for there is "an interdependence between personal betterment and the improvement of society."131 Chastity presupposes respect for the rights of the person, in particular the right to receive information and an education that respect the moral and spiritual dimensions of human life.
2345 Chastity is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort.132 (Galatians 5:22) The Holy Spirit enables one whom the water of Baptism has regenerated to imitate the purity of Christ.133 (1 John 3:3)
(Mt. 5:28) - “But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
(1 John 2:15) - “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If any one loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. (16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. (17) And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever.”
Offenses against Chastity, Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
[II. THE VOCATION TO CHASTITY
2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.
The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.
The integrity of the person
2338 The chaste person maintains the integrity of the powers of life and love placed in him. This integrity ensures the unity of the person; it is opposed to any behavior that would impair it. It tolerates neither a double life nor duplicity in speech.125 (Matthew 5:37) [But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes ’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.]
2339 Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. The alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy.126 (Sirach 1:22) [Self-Control: There is no excuse for unjustified anger; it can bring about your downfall. Wait and be patient, and later you will be glad you did. Keep quiet until the right time to speak, and you will gain a reputation for good sense.] "Man’s dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint. Man gains such dignity when, ridding himself of all slavery to the passions, he presses forward to his goal by freely choosing what is good and, by his diligence and skill, effectively secures for himself the means suited to this end."127
2340 Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and resist temptations will want to adopt the means for doing so: self-knowledge, practice of an ascesis (rigorous self-denial and active self-restraint) adapted to the situations that confront him, obedience to God’s commandments, exercise of the moral virtues, and fidelity to prayer. "Indeed it is through chastity that we are gathered together and led back to the unity from which we were fragmented into multiplicity."128
2341 The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.
2342 Self-mastery is a long and exacting work. One can never consider it acquired once and for all. It presupposes renewed effort at all stages of life.129 (Titus 2:1-6) The effort required can be more intense in certain periods, such as when the personality is being formed during childhood and adolescence.
2343 Chastity has laws of growth which progress through stages marked by imperfection and too often by sin. "Man . . . day by day builds himself up through his many free decisions; and so he knows, loves, and accomplishes moral good by stages of growth."130
2344 Chastity represents an eminently personal task; it also involves a cultural effort, for there is "an interdependence between personal betterment and the improvement of society."131 Chastity presupposes respect for the rights of the person, in particular the right to receive information and an education that respect the moral and spiritual dimensions of human life.
2345 Chastity is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort.132 (Galatians 5:22) The Holy Spirit enables one whom the water of Baptism has regenerated to imitate the purity of Christ.133 (1 John 3:3)
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someperson555
Guest
but these things were not originally in God’s plan. the sacraments are a result of sin. adam and eve didnt need to be baptised, they didnt need to be confirmed, they didnt need confession. they didnt need to get married either.
J
just_came_back
Guest
I just want to see the hands raised of all those Catholic married couples who post here that in times that they have “gotten together” that they “ALWAYS” treated it as a time to “bring forth children”. Hmmm…didn’t think so.
Yep, none of you have ever wanted your spouse to just go all animal on you between the sheets. Yeah, and no priests have ever molested children either. You’re so pious as to tell us single people who are CONSTANTLY denying ourselves that you find no pleasure in the conjunal act, only you do it for procreation. SURE…
And yes, as a catholic, SINGLE MIND YOU, I know exactly what the church teaches. You all are so ready to throw stones at those of us who don’t have sex even though WE ARE WIRED, MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, to have sex, that our feelings don’t matter.
What I do, is between me, my Lord, and my confessor. Keep condemning us all you want. You don’t know how lonely we are to be held.
Yep, none of you have ever wanted your spouse to just go all animal on you between the sheets. Yeah, and no priests have ever molested children either. You’re so pious as to tell us single people who are CONSTANTLY denying ourselves that you find no pleasure in the conjunal act, only you do it for procreation. SURE…
And yes, as a catholic, SINGLE MIND YOU, I know exactly what the church teaches. You all are so ready to throw stones at those of us who don’t have sex even though WE ARE WIRED, MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, to have sex, that our feelings don’t matter.
What I do, is between me, my Lord, and my confessor. Keep condemning us all you want. You don’t know how lonely we are to be held.
C
Corki
Guest
If the law says you need a license to do these things, the doing them without a license IS a sin.
How are you getting from Point A to Point B with that conclusion? Many things that are free to do without license or restriction are sinful or immoral while many things that are holy require special license, authority or permission.
No, the only thing you can conclude is that there are boundries on when some things can licitly be done. Marriage is more than a license, it’s a vocation - a state of life. Certain activities are only licit in certain states of life. Sexual activity is not licit without marriage. Eating solid food is not licit if you are too young to have teeth. Saying Mass is not valid unless you are an ordained priest.
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Bill1940
Guest
Don’t be a jackass.Read 1 Corinthians Chapter 6, verse 9.jesus also said in matthew:
“if anyone puts away his wife saving for the cause of fornication, commits adultery”. this implies that he did permit divorce.
and its very interesting if you study the exact wording of that quote about lust. jesus says that if you look at a woman with lust you have commited adultery. now isnt that interesting that he used the word mojnea (adultery) and not pornea (fornication). so he never said that two single people cannot have sexual fantasies about eachother, by the way he used the word "heart’ and the heart usually signifies the “will”, this is different from mere fantasies.
jesus himself was quite vague about the whole thing. and possible for good reason. dont you think if it was that important he would have explicitly forbade it?
A
april32010
Guest
excuse me,is what the op proposing a manichaeist philosophy? or dualist? i am just trying to understand the different heresies.i’ve just been blown away by the fact there aren’t any new ones.
U
underacloud
Guest
Christian philosophy is based on Christ.
Christ was against fornication.
Thus Christian philosophy is against…not compatible with…fornication.
That’s fairly clear. As to the reasons…these start with understanding the purpose of sex, which leads to an understanding of its only appropriate context (marriage) and why other contexts - fornication, adultery, masturbation - are not a fulfilment of its purpose but a misuse. Again, read the section of the catechism fully and see if that helps in understanding the purpose of sex. If you then have any issues, the discussion can progress.
M
mini_me640
Guest
Regardless, the fact that an act is limited to certain people, places, times, etc. does not mean the act is intrinsically evil. It just means it is reserved for the appropriate context. Sex is meant to join husband and wife together as one flesh, symbolic of their oneness in a lifelong commitment. The two are joined together both physically and spiritually. Fornication doesn’t involve lifelong commitment. It is a flie of sorts - the bodies become one, but the two people are not one as joined by God.
G
George_Stegmeir
Guest
Ah yes! You may have read all of this, but do you know the proper interpretation of what you read per the Magisterium?
I, as well as others believe you to be wrong in your interpretations.
Do you really believe this or are you just arguing this presmise to be arguing? If you really believe what you are arguing, I strongly suggest you consult with a priest as soon as possible because your soul is in peril!
And yes, I am making a value judgement, because not just I, but others on this site are right.
S
someperson555
Guest
yes, self mastery is required for our salvation, that is 100% true, but self-mastery is essentially moderation.
yes our extreme liberal culture is a bad thing, it reduces us back to the state of the animal, but extreme repression and puritanism is a bad thing too. since it is unprofitable and forces us to deny an essentail part of our humanity, which is sex.
M
mini_me640
Guest
The Church doesn’t require married couples to only have sex for procreation. It just requires the act to be ordered to procreation. What healthy married person says they don’t enjoy sex? Sex is for unity AND procreation, not just procreation.I just want to see the hands raised of all those Catholic married couples who post here that in times that they have “gotten together” that they “ALWAYS” treated it as a time to “bring forth children”. Hmmm…didn’t think so.
Yep, none of you have ever wanted your spouse to just go all animal on you between the sheets. Yeah, and no priests have ever molested children either. You’re so pious as to tell us single people who are CONSTANTLY denying ourselves that you find no pleasure in the conjunal act, only you do it for procreation. SURE…
And yes, as a catholic, SINGLE MIND YOU, I know exactly what the church teaches. You all are so ready to throw stones at those of us who don’t have sex even though WE ARE WIRED, MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, to have sex, that our feelings don’t matter.
What I do, is between me, my Lord, and my confessor. Keep condemning us all you want. You don’t know how lonely we are to be held.
S
someperson555
Guest
S
someperson555
Guest
I just want to see the hands raised of all those Catholic married couples who post here that in times that they have “gotten together” that they “ALWAYS” treated it as a time to “bring forth children”. Hmmm…didn’t think so.
Yep, none of you have ever wanted your spouse to just go all animal on you between the sheets. Yeah, and no priests have ever molested children either. You’re so pious as to tell us single people who are CONSTANTLY denying ourselves that you find no pleasure in the conjunal act, only you do it for procreation. SURE…
And yes, as a catholic, SINGLE MIND YOU, I know exactly what the church teaches. You all are so ready to throw stones at those of us who don’t have sex even though WE ARE WIRED, MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, to have sex, that our feelings don’t matter.
What I do, is between me, my Lord, and my confessor. Keep condemning us all you want. You don’t know how lonely we are to be held.
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