Why sin?

[LethalMouse]

I understand why many sin to include myself. I sin with doubt, that is what allows me to sin. I have on occasion come across a person who in their mind doesn’t “believ” but knows. If you are 100% sure unto.m your own mind, why sin? I have never understood it, and the few convos I have had with those who believe sin is a grave matter (many protestants with the grace alone theory answer they sin because grace means they can) but those who sin whilst holding sin as serious, why do it?

 

[e_c]

The soul has different faculties, and sometimes they disagree with one another… The intellect may say that such and such is wrong, but the will perceives it as good nonetheless.

A better way to frame the question… Why wouldn’t you sin? Sin goes after what looks good to the sinner!

 

[LethalMouse]

The soul has different faculties, and sometimes they disagree with one another… The intellect may say that such and such is wrong, but the will perceives it as good nonetheless.

A better way to frame the question… Why wouldn’t you sin? Sin goes after what looks good to the sinner!

I guess the issue is that as someone who’s only way to comprhend sin is doubt, I don’t get how one without such doubt could consider sin. It seems a logical issue to me. When presented with a sin I am at the point of decision…only the idea that there could be no such thing as sin allows me to do it. If I were 100% sure that sin was real without the doubt I see no benifit. I can only reconcile mentally sin within the context that its trapping may not be a real thing. If I knew they were real it would be like touching my hand to a hot stove, I know the real scenario, therefore I do not touch a hot stove.

 

[Wesrock]

Consider yourself blessed. Not everyone is able to master their will or impulses so easily.

 

[LethalMouse]

Consider yourself blessed. Not everyone is able to master their will or impulses so easily.

BUT WHY!?!?!?!?!? I don’t comprehend it. The concept physics and metaphysics are simpler to comprehend than this piece of human behavior.

 

[cjb_914]

It is simpler than you make it out to be: Sin often is pleasant in the short term (I.E. lying that you did not take the cookie from the cookie jar means you don’t get yelled at [also eating the cookie in the first place]), so there’s a certain level of shortsightedness that comes into play. There’s also the fact that sin is not just doing something. Sin is also failing to do something. Not assisting that homeless person, letting your mind wander during mass, failing to forgive fully, failing to give alms, thinking unkind thoughts about someone. All these are sins of varying degrees.

 

[LethalMouse]

It is simpler than you make it out to be: Sin often is pleasant in the short term (I.E. lying that you did not take the cookie from the cookie jar means you don’t get yelled at [also eating the cookie in the first place]), so there’s a certain level of shortsightedness that comes into play. There’s also the fact that sin is not just doing something. Sin is also failing to do something. Not assisting that homeless person, letting your mind wander during mass, failing to forgive fully, failing to give alms, thinking unkind thoughts about someone. All these are sins of varying degrees.

But so many people harp here on the unaware sins to claim human imperfection. But if a sin requires awareness then at the point one is aware why do it.

Cookie from the cookie jar is child mentality. As I am discussing cognitive adults who grasp the situation fully.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

But if a sin requires awareness then at the point one is aware why do it.

This is a misconception. People sin without knowing it. Being aware that your actions are sinful is one requirement for a sin to be mortal. CCC says:

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

As I am discussing cognitive adults who grasp the situation fully.

Most of them don’t. Even when they do, there can be circumstances where previously acquired habits can overcome the will. Or anxiety, stress or illness can also cause someone to to sin even though they know better.

If you can’t empathize with these situations, then be careful that pride and self-righteousness don’t invade your thinking. Not that is seems to be.

 

[LethalMouse]

This is a misconception. People sin without knowing it. Being aware that your actions are sinful is one requirement for a sin to be mortal. CCC says:

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Most of them don’t. Even when they do, there can be circumstances where previously acquired habits can overcome the will. Or anxiety, stress or illness can also cause someone to to sin even though they know better.

If you can’t empathize with these situations, then be careful that pride and self-righteousness don’t invade your thinking. Not that is seems to be.

Well it might, I need to overcome doubt to be tested within my question. I can not prove my thought about what I would do, and I can not get in the mind of this kind of sinner so long as sinning in this cobtext is not possible for me. As I literally at this moment have an exact answer as to “why” I sin. I kniw exactly what purpose and reasoning allows sin for me. For someone to say habit overcame them or whatever… still does not answer “why” it could overcome them. I wish to understand it, but either need someone who knows why they do what they do, or I need to relieve my doubt…

If and I suppose a big if, I were to get that 100% faith level and then not sin… I would still not understand why people sin. I wanna know

 

[Jared2914]

People sin because of concupiscence, the effect of original sin. After Baptism, original sin is forgiven but its effects still endure. This is much the same way that a boy being forgiven for breaking a neighbor’s window with a baseball does not fix the window. The effects of the sin still endure. Anyways, the flesh (our bodies) lives in this physical world. Pretty much every sin is the flesh thinking it is the best action to survive in this world. What we need to survive on earth is very different from what we need to get to heaven, so there is this conflict between what our spirit wants and what our flesh wants. This inner conflict is concupiscence. Our whole lives we have to work to align our flesh with our spirit. It is a very hard, lifelong battle, but we will succeed as long as we keep fighting, which means following God in all ways as much as we can.

 

[LethalMouse]

People sin because of concupiscence, the effect of original sin. After Baptism, original sin is forgiven but its effects still endure. This is much the same way that a boy being forgiven for breaking a neighbor’s window with a baseball does not fix the window. The effects of the sin still endure. Anyways, the flesh (our bodies) lives in this physical world. Pretty much every sin is the flesh thinking it is the best action to survive in this world. What we need to survive on earth is very different from what we need to get to heaven, so there is this conflict between what our spirit wants and what our flesh wants. This inner conflict is concupiscence. Our whole lives we have to work to align our flesh with our spirit. It is a very hard, lifelong battle, but we will succeed as long as we keep fighting, which means following God in all ways as much as we can.

But what goes through the person’s mibd who does not have the affliction of doubt? I want what thought that person posseses at the moment of decision.

 

[Jared2914]

But what goes through the person’s mibd who does not have the affliction of doubt? I want what thought that person posseses at the moment of decision.

You mean doubt that the faith is true, that there is good and evil? I have felt that way before too because ultimately all we have is faith. We never have proof that what we believe is true. There are signs if we look for them but never proof. So for a second I might not believe the faith and choose to sin thinking that sin isn’t real.

As far as some people not having that doubt, my only guess is they haven’t been educated enough to understand it. The Church names certain sins as being against natural law, so every person with a normal mind just knows they are sins. Other sins do not violate natural law. The person has to be educated to know they are wrong.

For some people maybe it is like how a human is more intelligent than a dog. What goes through the dog’s mind when we try to teach it complex things? Why can it not learn some things? We will never know since we can’t tell what is going through the dog’s mind. For some reason they just don’t have that ability.

 

[Vico]

I understand why many sin to include myself. I sin with doubt, that is what allows me to sin. I have on occasion come across a person who in their mind doesn’t “believe” but knows. If you are 100% sure unto.m your own mind, why sin? I have never understood it, and the few convos I have had with those who believe sin is a grave matter (many protestants with the grace alone theory answer they sin because grace means they can) but those who sin whilst holding sin as serious, why do it?

Sin is of the will. Because some love the immediate fulfillment of worldly desires for things, rather than loving God, they choose sin.

Catechism

1680 … Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. …

1 John 2

15 Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, is the concupiscence of the flesh, and the concupiscence of the eyes, and the pride of life, which is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the concupiscence thereof: but he that doth the will of God, abideth for ever.

 

[LethalMouse]

You mean doubt that the faith is true, that there is good and evil? I have felt that way before too because ultimately all we have is faith. We never have proof that what we believe is true. There are signs if we look for them but never proof. So for a second I might not believe the faith and choose to sin thinking that sin isn’t real.

As far as some people not having that doubt, my only guess is they haven’t been educated enough to understand it. The Church names certain sins as being against natural law, so every person with a normal mind just knows they are sins. Other sins do not violate natural law. The person has to be educated to know they are wrong.

For some people maybe it is like how a human is more intelligent than a dog. What goes through the dog’s mind when we try to teach it complex things? Why can it not learn some things? We will never know since we can’t tell what is going through the dog’s mind. For some reason they just don’t have that ability.

But if I think of other people as mentally dogs, wouldnt that make me exceptionally arrogant?

As a side note, some of us get a piece of “proof” but it seems to always be in such a way one doubts their falcultied even when another is there to see the same lol errr so complex.

 

[e_c]

But if I think of other people as mentally dogs, wouldnt that make me exceptionally arrogant?

As a side note, some of us get a piece of “proof” but it seems to always be in such a way one doubts their falcultied even when another is there to see the same lol errr so complex.

A few considerations might be helpful.

1. The inability to sin in Beatitude.
2. The ability of Christ to have been truly tempted.
3. The basics of philosophical anthropology.

You are touching on a debate that swirls around the contemporary scene (externalism/internalism) that can be solved at least by those considerations.

In the end, it is a deficiency in the soul… Its apprehension of simple goods and relative goods gets screwed up, the lower soul is moved inordinately to something while the will fails to stop it, etc. Do not make human actions simpler than they are… We are not just minds and wills, and even then, the fallen angels sinned! It is a misapprehension of the simple good, once again.

 

[fred_conty]

Although we need to keep our attention on living for the next world, unfortunately as long as we are living in this one then we become attracted to the things around us. The old saying holds, “out of sight out of mind.”

Another consideration is that which St Paul had when he was tempted. He described it as a thorn in his side. He too begged God to deliver him from that temptation and God told him that his grace was sufficient for him. He didn’t break down, but there are many who do under stress as he suffered.

It is our lot in this world to suffer temptation from the world, the flesh, and the devil. Holiness is perfected thru being faithful in difficult times. It is easy to say we love God when everything is just sailing along fine, but it really shows how much we love God when we are tested and have to make a difficult choice. It burns out the impurities of our love.

The bible tells us what sin does. It says that it makes good look evil, and evil look good. Sin clouds judgement to the point of our confusion. And the person, after a while, really thinks that evil is good and that they are justified in their choice by rationalization … making their choice appear right thru logic.

 

[LethalMouse]

Although we need to keep our attention on living for the next world, unfortunately as long as we are living in this one then we become attracted to the things around us. The old saying holds, “out of sight out of mind.”

Another consideration is that which St Paul had when he was tempted. He described it as a thorn in his side. He too begged God to deliver him from that temptation and God told him that his grace was sufficient for him. He didn’t break down, but there are many who do under stress as he suffered.

It is our lot in this world to suffer temptation from the world, the flesh, and the devil. Holiness is perfected thru being faithful in difficult times. It is easy to say we love God when everything is just sailing along fine, but it really shows how much we love God when we are tested and have to make a difficult choice. It burns out the impurities of our love.

The bible tells us what sin does. It says that it makes good look evil, and evil look good. Sin clouds judgement to the point of our confusion. And the person, after a while, really thinks that evil is good and that they are justified in their choice by rationalization … making their choice appear right thru logic.

I am largely concluding I am not going to get anyone’s first hand understanding of why they sin… so I guess I will take this sort of for now as that makes some sense.

I still don’t get why no one can attest the the specific reason why they themselves ignore logic for sin

 

[e_c]

I am largely concluding I am not going to get anyone’s first hand understanding of why they sin… so I guess I will take this sort of for now as that makes some sense.

I still don’t get why no one can attest the the specific reason why they themselves ignore logic for sin

Did you make the slightest attempt to engage with the considerations I offered you? It is not a matter of “logical” vs. “illogical,” but “relative” (“apparent”) good vs. “simple” (“true”) good.

If you are really interested, give the Prima Secundae a read.

 

[Vico]

I am largely concluding I am not going to get anyone’s first hand understanding of why they sin… so I guess I will take this sort of for now as that makes some sense.

I still don’t get why no one can attest the the specific reason why they themselves ignore logic for sin

Mortal sin is from pride (excessive love of one’s own excellence), of three categories: malice, willful passion and, willful ignorance. So when I rejected the teaching of the Church, it was because I thought my opinion more excellent than what I was taught and accepted, and decided that to do what I desired rather than what was good, regardless of my Confirmation:

Let us pray.
Almighty everlasting God, who once gave new life to these servants of yours by water and the Holy Spirit, forgiving them all their sins; send forth on them from heaven your Holy Spirit, the Advocate, along with His sevenfold gifts.
All: Amen.
Celebrant: The Spirit of wisdom and understanding.
All: Amen.
Celebrant: The Spirit of counsel and fortitude.
All: Amen.
Celebrant: The Spirit of knowledge and piety.
All: Amen.
Celebrant: Fill them with the Spirit of holy fear, and seal them with the sign of the cross + of Christ, in token of everlasting life. We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever.
All: Amen.

Until my repentance.

For what we have been given, may the Lord make us truly thankful.

 

[LethalMouse]

Did you make the slightest attempt to engage with the considerations I offered you? It is not a matter of “logical” vs. “illogical,” but “relative” (“apparent”) good vs. “simple” (“true”) good.

If you are really interested, give the Prima Secundae a read.

Well, perhaps human experience varies much…

I know that when I sin there is a moment when I can decided to sin/not sin. There is a direct choice to be made. When making that decision I can tell you that I literally can make the decision to sin based soley on my doubt of God.

For someone who at that same moment, has no doubt of God, but sins anyway… What is that precise thought.

If I have a precise thought the moment before I sin, then it stands to reason so do other people? Or am I a freak of nature?