Why sin?

[LethalMouse]

So you mean justification or motive for doing an act, rather than rational (logical). It could be rationalizations?

Basically Yes.

At the moment of choice to sin/not sin for someone who does not have the rationalization that there may not be a God, what is the rationalization that is used?

As I said the only two answeres I have ever gotten are “I don’t know”

And “it doesnt matter, I go to heaven anyway”

But I am seeking the rationalization of a specific person…

Soneone who:

1. Does not think there may not be a God
2. Does think sin could equal hell.

(Had a muslim for instance as he considers sin as grave if not graver than us given the lack of Christ’s grace. He believed his chances of hell for sin were substantial. He knows God is as real as me… his answer was idk why I sin…)

But someone at least one person who meets my criteria has to have a rationalization that is used unto themselves… I don’t have to agree with it but I would like to hear it.

The we sin because we are flawed is not a rationalization for a personal act, it is the overarching philosophy as to why we rationalize, not the rationalization itself except maybe for protestants or the “I am forgiven anyway crowd” and even then when you press the “do not sin for the sake of grace” biblical info… well the ones who admut that end with an “I don’t know”

I believe it is likely that large segments of humans are too mentally limited to comprehend their own mental rationalizations or failings…BUT NOT EVERY HUMAN. If I know my rationalization then SOMEONE els has to know theirs…

 

[LethalMouse]

Our reason and knowledge is corrupted. By pride and un-reasonable desires.
The pull of “the world” or “the flesh” overcomes reason.

In this way, we do not truly know The Good.
We know something, we do not know someone. So there is a difference between having an intellectual knowledge of a particular matter, and a knowing of God. The knowing and being known of God is a matter that possesses the whole person, not just the intellect.

For instance, I know that to engage in lust is an offense against God and is un-reasonable. That knowledge is not fully conformed to the person of Christ however. My vision, perception, and attainment of that knowledge is clouded by the various human imperfections and corrupted desires.

I see dimly that which I think I know, because I am to one degree or another, not united with Christ.
In the beatific vision, the intellectual knowledge of right and wrong, “the law”, will be transcended by the intense desire to please and praise God.

This is a long fancy “I don’t know” mixed with the general theory but again falls short of a personal rationalization for a specific act.

Prior to lust (not a fleeting thought) but at the moment you think of God and sin, if you CHOOSE at that point to indulge, what is the specific logic/rationalization you use to justify your actions?

 

[clem456]

This is a long fancy “I don’t know” mixed with the general theory but again falls short of a personal rationalization for a specific act.

Prior to lust (not a fleeting thought) but at the moment you think of God and sin, if you CHOOSE at that point to indulge, what is the specific logic/rationalization you use to justify your actions?

I prefer to indulge rather than do what I know is best.
This is not rocket science.

(If you read what I said, it is not a long fancy “I don’t know”. It is rather a working through of what it means “to know”. )

 

[LethalMouse]

I prefer to indulge rather than do what I know is best.
This is not rocket science.

(If you read what I said, it is not a long fancy “I don’t know”. It is rather a working through of what it means “to know”. )

Thank you, so for you it is more direct defiance and personal choice than an actual rationalization? I can accept that as an option. I don’t feel it is one I could use if I met the conditions I prescribe for the question, but I get it

Honestly, that is probably the scariest answer IMO lol… well for one’s soul I wish you luck in overcoming that.

 

[LethalMouse]

Tbh based on the one answer I got… I am more concerned with how many souls might actually be hellbound if the answer hiding behind “I don’t knows” is more “I don’t care” and I never understood how in Revelation the Devil would convince most of the world to follow him and attack the city of God directly… now I think I do

As a sinner I fear being left in the lurch and being subject to at least purgatory if not hell… but should the time come to assualt God directly even if it would not earn me forgiveness I will be sitting in a chair watching, as I can not rationalize that battle in my mind… and I like fights

 

[e_c]

Oh and direct answers…

Penance - I am not entirely sure I am truly sorry for the sins. As I am truly sorry if I offended God, but am not sure I did for the obvious reason stated in my post (however I do pray for guidance on the subject)

Prayer - actually slowly upping my prayer game regularly, so I DO lol…

Evangelization - I look to certain circumstances and know my limitations as I am still newer to being home. Ironically in regards to this post I just evangelized a lapse catholic a bit tonight.

Self sacrifice - not exactly sure the exact context of what you’d want me to do… I have two helping people jobs and volunteer with kids… I give to charity (I might up it a bit if not for doubt) and I help people I come across in life financially and such sometimes. Again I’d maybe up my game a bit if not for doubt.

It was rhetorical, really… My point is that you (and everyone) could go “two miles” rather than one more often, and yet we don’t. Even though it’s “illogical.”

You continue to have the intellect overshadow the will. This is why you put everything in terms of doubt and surety. You could go down the other path and surpass Bonaventure to say that when we form conclusions, it is only because we sense that the conclusion is “better,” rather than “truer.”

Yes, there is always “bad logic” at work in sin, as there is a “bad desire” at work in erroneous reasoning. But the focus is off… The intellect seeks the true, the will seeks the good. They are related, but they are not the same.

Maybe give some time to the study of the 12 steps of a moral act. That could be helpful.

 

[clem456]

Thank you, so for you it is more direct defiance and personal choice than an actual rationalization? I can accept that as an option. I don’t feel it is one I could use if I met the conditions I prescribe for the question, but I get it

Honestly, that is probably the scariest answer IMO lol… well for one’s soul I wish you luck in overcoming that.

The choice to sin is in fact -not-rational. It is irrational. Or unreasonable. it places an inferior desire or passion ahead of right reason.
It is the preference of an inferior good to The Good.
If I was entirely reasonable I would say “I choose to follow what I know is The Good rather than have a dozen cookies, which will not really satisfy me.” But my stomach says “eat a dozen cookies and you will feel real good for five minutes” and that is powerful motivation

And to tie in with my other post…
the fact that I have rational or intellectual knowledge of the the right course of action does not mean I have come to know The Good. The Good is a person, not merely a rule. That full knowledge requires a lot of hard work. “Faith” is a response to the knowledge of God.

So as I come to more clearly and truly know The Good, I become better able to reason.
“Virtue” is the practice of the thing in question, not merely the knowledge of it. In the practice of virtue we are able to employ sharpened conscience and reason and experience to more consistently choose the right course of action.

 

[LethalMouse]

The choice to sin is in fact -not-rational. It is irrational. Or unreasonable. it places an inferior desire or passion ahead of right reason.
It is the preference of an inferior good to The Good.
If I was entirely reasonable I would say “I choose to follow what I know is The Good rather than have a dozen cookies, which will not really satisfy me.” But my stomach says “eat a dozen cookies and you will feel real good for five minutes” and that is powerful motivation

And to tie in with my other post…
the fact that I have rational or intellectual knowledge of the the right course of action does not mean I have come to know The Good. The Good is a person, not merely a rule. That full knowledge requires a lot of hard work. “Faith” is a response to the knowledge of God.

So as I come to more clearly and truly know The Good, I become better able to reason.
“Virtue” is the practice of the thing in question, not merely the knowledge of it. In the practice of virtue we are able to employ sharpened conscience and reason and experience to more consistently choose the right course of action.

Hmm I wonder if this can be like a scientific theory. As in one can fully know and understand how the thing works, but until “proven” it is just a theory and to execute something based on the theory that could cause harm or failure might make the person with full knowledge of the theory scared to do it… even if the theory is true.

I would question if this is why I have a hard time seeing logic in sin other than doubt. I do generally feel like I understand God “know” God as well as I understand atomic theories etc… I grasp them fully but cannot “know” they are true. And in this case the grasping makes me able to choose not to sin… except for the fear my theory is untrue? And is it possible that many lack my fear but also lack said grasp of God?

 

[LethalMouse]

Sort of in this sense of knowledge/ doubt

I believe I understand the mechanics of miracles… as in I essentially see Jesus’s miracles as things that could happen. But despite thinking I grasp them (it doesn’t make them less miraculous to me) I don’t know that they happened. Much as I know how someone makes a basket in basketball but I can not know you did so at your house if you tell me you did. So my understanding or perceived understanding of miracles for me supports the possibility of God much as my knowledge of basketball supportd that you likely made a basket. So my doubt is not if it could be so much as if it is… so that I sin in the same rationalization that I would not make certain affirmative decisions based on if you made the basket.
I would for example likely wager money that you DID make the basket based on common sense…
I would not for example bet my entire net worth because it is theoretically possible that you did not make a basket.
But for me if I KNEW you made the basket because I was there, then not betting my whole net worth would be whly stupid.

So for me to not sin about 95% ish is logical as the small wager
The 5% sins are like gambling my net wroth
I see those who don’t doubt God and sin as not betting their net worth despite seeing the basket get made.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[LethalMouse]

Best answer comes from a conversation with a friend today:

Basically she reasoned no one can meet my proposed criteria and still choose direct sin with the exception of direct defiance. She has the lack of doubt and therefore does not have any known reasoned out mortal sins… which is the only logical way to be other than pure defiant.

 

[e_c]

Best answer comes from a conversation with a friend today:

Basically she reasoned no one can meet my proposed criteria and still choose direct sin with the exception of direct defiance. She has the lack of doubt and therefore does not have any known reasoned out mortal sins… which is the only logical way to be other than pure defiant.

That defiance thing… THAT’S IT.

Your answer lies in anthropology, not psychology.

Good night and good luck.

 

[Vico]

Best answer comes from a conversation with a friend today:

Basically she reasoned no one can meet my proposed criteria and still choose direct sin with the exception of direct defiance. She has the lack of doubt and therefore does not have any known reasoned out mortal sins… which is the only logical way to be other than pure defiant.

Does direct mean willful?

Serious sin is malice or passion not resisted, which is inimical towards God. Pride.

 

[LethalMouse]

Does direct mean willful?

Serious sin is malice or passion not resisted, which is inimical towards God. Pride.

Yeah, basicallly. Mrotal sins are willful. I just thought more people had excuses rsther than evil

 

[clem456]

Yeah, basicallly. Mrotal sins are willful. I just thought more people had excuses rsther than evil

I guess I’m really not following what you are asking.

 

[LethalMouse]

I guess I’m really not following what you are asking.

Well I suppose I have the answer now based on my mentioned conversation:

Basically to have a moment of reflection and choose sin while not questioning the existence of God, why sin?

The answer is there are 3 answers:

1. People who say they lack doubt actually have doubt
2. People are commiting true sin “no rationale” other than to defy God.
3. They don’t sin in this manner.

This isn’t a question of venial sins (without conscious thought)

So I sin with doubt

Anyone who sins as I do either is in denial about doubt or is a “true sinner”.

That is why no one has ever been able to give a clear justification when claiming lack of doubt.

 

[Vico]

Yeah, basicallly. Mrotal sins are willful. I just thought more people had excuses rsther than evil

Excuses for evil deeds.

John 3:

19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

 

[LethalMouse]

Excuses for evil deeds.

John 3:

19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

Yeah I guess since I sin in the light ie: I am willing to be exposed I had always assumed there was an excuse beside just liking to be wicked… errr there is not with the exception of doubt itself.

There is doubt, wickedness, and goodness. Nothing more

 

[clem456]

Well I suppose I have the answer now based on my mentioned conversation:

Basically to have a moment of reflection and choose sin while not questioning the existence of God, why sin?

The answer is there are 3 answers:

1. People who say they lack doubt actually have doubt
2. People are commiting true sin “no rationale” other than to defy God.
3. They don’t sin in this manner.

This isn’t a question of venial sins (without conscious thought)

So I sin with doubt

Anyone who sins as I do either is in denial about doubt or is a “true sinner”.

That is why no one has ever been able to give a clear justification when claiming lack of doubt.

I’m sorry I’m still not clear what exactly you are getting at.
What do you mean by claiming lack of doubt?

A person is sure God exists and that God asks the to behave a certain way. Is that what you mean by lack of doubt?
And that person sins anyway, even after reflecting on the morality at hand.

If this is the premise, the answer as to why we would do this is that we prefer our inferior goods to God.
Pride.
Lust
Greed
etc…

 

[LethalMouse]

I’m sorry I’m still not clear what exactly you are getting at.
What do you mean by claiming lack of doubt?

A person is sure God exists and that God asks the to behave a certain way. Is that what you mean by lack of doubt?
And that person sins anyway, even after reflecting on the morality at hand.

If this is the premise, the answer as to why we would do this is that we prefer our inferior goods to God.
Pride.
Lust
Greed
etc…

Yes, that is what I have said. Until my post of getting the answer, I had thought there was an alternate reason. Since I did not live in that realm, I only assumed the people in question were not just evil…

I guess I couldn’t fathom that there were actually a good number of wicked vs faulty good people…

 

[clem456]

Yes, that is what I have said. Until my post of getting the answer, I had thought there was an alternate reason. Since I did not live in that realm, I only assumed the people in question were not just evil…

I guess I couldn’t fathom that there were actually a good number of wicked vs faulty good people…

To quote Bing Crosby “we all have a little larceny in us”. And we are not terminally wicked until death comes knocking. There is hope for every person in Christ.
We have a savior in the midst of our wickedness.