Why so little denunciation by Muslims to

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

My experience with friends and family who are Muslims, and from living among Muslims is that many genuinely believe Islam is peaceful and Muhammad was a peaceful man - which is what daniel edge shows.

It surprises me somewhat because from the very beginning I could see Islam is not peaceful and Muhammad was not peaceful. But I continue to be surprised when I see that Muslims do find Islam and Muhammad to be peaceful. Many converts to Islam also claim, swearing blind, that Islam is peaceful and that Muhammad was peaceful.

When Muslims read the sira and hadiths about Muhammad killing, making war, ordering assasinations, committing genocide, beheadings, ethnic-cleansing, torture - they don’t have a problem with those things. They seem to think those are ‘peaceful’ acts. After all, if people have to suffer and die to be brought into the fold of Islam or punished for not believing in the ‘right religion’ so be it. You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs. Hence, they think of Muhammad as the best of human beings EVER and the greatest peace-maker in history.

Another thing I find about Muslims is that they totally lack empathy for other religions. To them, Islam is the one true religion and the rest of you are evil that needs to be eradicated or punished. Thus, you will find Muslims claiming all sorts of special privileges when they are immigrants, while no other immigrant groups do so. Muslims are the most vociferous group regarding their ‘rights’ which they deny to others in their home country.

I have lived in a Muslim country where the top clerics continually bemoan why not everyone embraces Islam. They can’t understand why anyone would want to leave Islam and why people don’t want to convert to Islam. To them, non-Muslims are either deliberately obstructive (i.e. evil) or stupid.

It is sad that they actually think so - and it proves that their moral compass is diametrically opposed to that of non-Muslims. With so little common ground on logical precepts, it doesn’t surprise me there is so much strife.

Though I think there is a role for dialogue, even this simple concept cannot find common ground. To Muslims dialogue means they berate your faith while you cannot berate theirs. This is because it is self-evident to Muslims that Islam is true and your religion … is not.

I Rodrigo

 

[Antwill]

hamba2han, paarsurrey, tawheedah? How 'bout it?

Do you denounce terror attacks?

 

[BelFarfalla]

wtf! what has the previous marriage anything to do with captivation?

*Islam gives men sexual rights to their wives and their female slaves. When a woman (really a girl 9 years and older) is a prisoner of war (or war captive) she becomes a slave. In the Qur’an it says that the war captives who become slaves of the Muslims are divided equally among the Muslim fighters with 1/5 going to Muhammad (and after his death 1/5 goes of the caliph). *

*The importance of a female captive’s marriage being annulled is that if she remains married it is adultery when her ‘owner’ rapes her. But with the marriage automatically annulled It is not adultery or legally rape. By law he has sexual right to her and she cannot refuse. We all that rape. They see it a charitable and good. *

*You may remember that in Iraq, the Cleric Al Sadir (spelling?) put out a fatwa that if a Muslim captured a female coalition member, the Muslim could keep the woman as a slave. This of course means that he can rape her with impunity. *

So you see, it is important that her marriage be annulled. Don’t want those Muslims to be committing adultery when they rape war captives.

The law of Jihad and the laws of captives being slaves and men having sexual rights to them is barbaric. I’ve ask Muslims in the past if they would agree that these laws need to be removed from Shari’ah. Their response is always that it is God’s laws. We might not like it but that is the way it is. Do not question God. I even had one Muslim tell me that all I had to do was to convert to Islam, and then this law does not apply to me. So then I should have no problem with it.:bigyikes:

 

[BelFarfalla]

My experience with friends and family who are Muslims, and from living among Muslims is that many genuinely believe Islam is peaceful and Muhammad was a peaceful man - which is what daniel edge shows.

It surprises me somewhat because from the very beginning I could see Islam is not peaceful and Muhammad was not peaceful. But I continue to be surprised when I see that Muslims do find Islam and Muhammad to be peaceful. Many converts to Islam also claim, swearing blind, that Islam is peaceful and that Muhammad was peaceful.

When Muslims read the sira and hadiths about Muhammad killing, making war, ordering assasinations, committing genocide, beheadings, ethnic-cleansing, torture - they don’t have a problem with those things. They seem to think those are ‘peaceful’ acts. After all, if people have to suffer and die to be brought into the fold of Islam or punished for not believing in the ‘right religion’ so be it. You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs. Hence, they think of Muhammad as the best of human beings EVER and the greatest peace-maker in history.

Another thing I find about Muslims is that they totally lack empathy for other religions. To them, Islam is the one true religion and the rest of you are evil that needs to be eradicated or punished. Thus, you will find Muslims claiming all sorts of special privileges when they are immigrants, while no other immigrant groups do so. Muslims are the most vociferous group regarding their ‘rights’ which they deny to others in their home country.

I have lived in a Muslim country where the top clerics continually bemoan why not everyone embraces Islam. They can’t understand why anyone would want to leave Islam and why people don’t want to convert to Islam. To them, non-Muslims are either deliberately obstructive (i.e. evil) or stupid.

It is sad that they actually think so - and it proves that their moral compass is diametrically opposed to that of non-Muslims. With so little common ground on logical precepts, it doesn’t surprise me there is so much strife.

Though I think there is a role for dialogue, even this simple concept cannot find common ground. To Muslims dialogue means they berate your faith while you cannot berate theirs. This is because it is self-evident to Muslims that Islam is true and your religion … is not.

I Rodrigo
I have had many Muslims tell me that it is more merciful to kill an ‘infidel’ then to let them live a life believing the wrong thing. It’s an act of mercy. So of course they (at least the ones who said this) don’t think its violence or hate, it’s mercy.

 

[daniel_edge]

In response to Rodrigo. You need to realize that most muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God, and even though it might go against how they feel inwardly or how they understand something, that if the Quran says different that they will follow that. This is because they feel they are following Gods command, which is comendable. If we were to follow Jesus’ teaching in the same way the world would be a beautiful place .

So I dont think Muslims think ‘what the heck I’ll kill and mame’ they look for the truth and are given it from commentries on the Quran and Hadith. Its often hard for muslims to follow what they think is Gods way.
God bless . Daniel

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

daniel,
It is a given that Muslims believe the Quran is the literal word of god. However, reading this ‘word of god’ that contains invocations to violence and hatred against disbelievers these Muslims have no problems with killing and persecuting disbelievers so long as it is they who are doing the killing and persecuting.

These Muslims believe that the Quran is ‘peaceful’ in killing and persecuting disbelievers. That is the definition of peace to Muslims. It is not the same definition as our (non-Muslim) definition.

I have heard countless imams claiming that if everyone is a Muslim there will be peace on earth (totally disregarding the Muslim on Muslim killings since the days of the Righteous Caliphs). So why are disbelievers against peace by not converting to Islam?

If a Muslim or a potential convert to Islam reads “kill all disbelievers wherever you find them” type of verse doesn’t that ring a bell that maybe, just maybe, Islam isn’t as peaceful as they have been led to believe?

No. Muslims and converts to Islam just either blindly ignore those contradictions or make some sort of excuse to rationalize them away. Often it is in the form of ‘well, Islam is the one true religion. Nobody has the right to defy Allah. Anyone who defies Allah does not deserve to live. That is what Allah says. Isn’t Islam such a peaceful and tolerant religion? I can’t think of another religion that is as peaceful and tolerant as Islam. They are all untrue anyway and must be abolished with violence if need be.’

Islam’s hateful, bigotted, violent character is so open to anyone who’s prepared to see, “kill all those who do not believe in Allah or the last day, or if they are People of the Book, they must pay the Jizyah with humiliation”, as unpeaceful.

Islam’s evil nature is open to anyone who’s prepared to see, “do not take disbelievers for friends for they are friends to each other. They wish that you become like them. So do not take them for friends unless they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn away seize and KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM. Except if they should find refuge in a country that has a peace treaty with Muslims, or if they run away and promise to not fight the Muslims,” as unpeaceful.

I know I’m touching on a raw nerve but I wonder if any convert to Islam has actually read and thought of these things before saying the shahada.

 

[BelFarfalla]

In response to Rodrigo. You need to realize that most muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God, and even though it might go against how they feel inwardly or how they understand something, that if the Quran says different that they will follow that. This is because they feel they are following Gods command, which is comendable. If we were to follow Jesus’ teaching in the same way the world would be a beautiful place .

So I dont think Muslims think ‘what the heck I’ll kill and mame’ they look for the truth and are given it from commentries on the Quran and Hadith. Its often hard for muslims to follow what they think is Gods way.

God bless . Daniel

Yes if ALL people were to follow Jesus’s teachings the world would be a peaceful place.

Unfortunately Muhammad did not teach peace, but instead violent jihad for the purpose of spreading Isalm.

Thus when a Christian truely follows the word of Jesus they are a peaceful person.

When a Muslim truely follows the word of Muhammad, they are a violent enemy of every non-Muslim on earth.

 

[Mark_Marilyn]

daniel,
It is a given that Muslims believe the Quran is the literal word of god. However, reading this ‘word of god’ that contains invocations to violence and hatred against disbelievers these Muslims have no problems with killing and persecuting disbelievers so long as it is they who are doing the killing and persecuting.

These Muslims believe that the Quran is ‘peaceful’ in killing and persecuting disbelievers. That is the definition of peace to Muslims. It is not the same definition as our (non-Muslim) definition.

… just either blindly ignore those contradictions or make some sort of excuse to rationalize them away. Often it is in the form of ‘well, Islam is the one true religion. Nobody has the right to defy Allah. Anyone who defies Allah does not deserve to live. That is what Allah says. Isn’t Islam such a peaceful and tolerant religion? I can’t think of another religion that is as peaceful and tolerant as Islam. They are all untrue anyway and must be abolished with violence if need be.’

Islam’s hateful, bigotted, violent character is so open to anyone who’s prepared to see, “kill all those who do not believe in Allah or the last day, or if they are People of the Book, they must pay the Jizyah with humiliation”, as unpeaceful.

Islam’s evil nature is open to anyone who’s prepared to see, "do not take disbelievers for friends for they are friends to each other. They wish that you become like them. So do not take them for friends unless they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn away seize and KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM. ….

There is really a considerable difference between moderate muslims (who stay out of trouble and don’t get involved in disputes) and reform-minded muslims. The latter are more interested in addressing the problems caused by conflicts and extremists, and have more sense of reality in the modern world. The former simply assume that if they keep quiet and passive, the extremists will go away and some day there will be no more trouble. 'Tain’t so.
The so-called moderates need to realize that their religion is being distorted, misused and exploited by belligerant extremists. If moderates really value their own religion and culture, they need to wake up, change their atttitude and become more reform-minded, because clearly the world’s troubles need to be addressed and the extremists need to be exposed for the imposters and exploiters they really are. (There is a beautiful column in the Toronto Globe and Mail on this topic, but unfortunately I’ve misplaced it and will see if I can recover it again).

 

[Mimi]

In answer to IIoca and Dolphin Love (Maybe I should of thought of a better name )

I came to Islam through my quest for the truth. What appealed to me the most was the simplicity and the monotheism and that the muslims believed in all the prophets sent by God. It also seemed very peacefull too. There were many reasons.

Since then my faith has been shaken a bit and I have found myself reading books that I only read when I was studying theology at university. Whats good this time is that I’m not reading them from the point of view of a student but of someone seeking for the truth about Jesus. I’ve told my self that if I can provr to myself that Jesus died on the cross for our sins then I would have no choice but to embrace Catholicism ( being the true universal church and the ‘Rock’ )
Whats really odd is that it took me to move myself and my family to Saudi Arabia for me to realize the things really laking in Islam.

What I find really beautiful about the message of Christ is that message of love. At the moment I’m reading about Jesus and I find myself feeling happier and more loving by the moment.

I pray God is leading me to the right path, though Iam very worried that I’m leading myself and my family astray.

On returning from Saudi my Mother who is a member of the church of England said to me ‘If you become Catholic I will join you’. amazing.

Sorry I dont have more time. Gos willing I will write again soon.

                 Daniel

Daniel,
I will pray for you specifically by name. I (and other Christians) are praying very much for people like you, to come to know the Truth.

Jesus said “the truth will set you free”. (Can anyone help with the book, chapter and verse??)
We Christians also believe in submission to God, but God is a loving Father who disciplines and loves us in a way we cannot really fathom. He created us not as automatons (or like robots) but beings with free will.

From what I know about Islam (which admittedly is little), Islam views God as a Master and we are but slaves to submit to his whims which are not knowable. Please correct me if this is wrong.

I pray God is leading me to the right path, though Iam very worried that I’m leading myself and my family astray.

True love is giving and feeing, not fearful and restrictive. We follow God’s laws because he knows what is best for us; to grow in holiness and become closer to Him both in this life and the next.
The Greeks have four words for love; agape (ah-gah’-pay) is the all-encompassing love that God has for us.
from the 2nd definition at dictionary.com:

1. the love of God or Christ for humankind.
2. the love of Christians for other persons, corresponding to the love of God for humankind.
3. unselfish love of one person for another without sexual implications; brotherly love.

God bless,
Mimi
(aka Miriam; which is a common name in the Middle East and the name of Our Lady, Jesus Mother)

 

[Mark_Marilyn]

We have found the exact source and article/column of which my above post referred. It is by Irshad Manji, in the Toronto Globe and Mail, July 4, 2007, p. 13, entitled:

Moderate Muslims Must Do More Than Preach Moderation
IRSHAD MANJI www.muslim-refusenik.com
The Globe and Mail
04 Jul 2007

The dramatis personae arrested in the wake of the failed British terror plots include medical professionals. This seeming paradox has many scratching their heads. Aren’t Muslim martyrs supposed to be poor, dispossessed and resentful about both? The…

It is well worth reading and articulates the problem with great insight. Unfortunatley, the database has made access to the URL very complex, but if you can dig it up in your library to read the whole column, it will be well worth the time and effort.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Having lived in a Muslim country for some time with Muslim relatives and friends I can tell from personal experience that there is no such thing as a ‘moderate’ Muslim. They all believe that the Quran is the literal word of god, and that killing/oppressing disbelievers is peaceful. They have no problems with those verses in the Quran that say this - and there are many oppressive verses in the Quran.

Every Friday they go to the mosque where the imams rail against Westerners, Christians and assorted disbelievers - and they believe this.

Why do they not act on jihad? Because they are weak. Don’t forget these ‘peace-loving’ ‘moderate Muslims’ are fully aware of and condone the oppression of Christians and other minorities in their country. They know full well what dhimmitude is - and how the dhimmis suffer - and they have never had a problem with this for 14 centuries.

Not many Muslims befriend Christians in my former country - why? Because the Muslims are told to not take Christians for friends by the Quran. With such widespread ‘apartness’ there is no dialogue and has never had dialogue except that of Muslim masters and Christian slaves.

Many so-called moderate Muslims can’t understand why Christians and other minorities are so obstinate to deny the truth of Muhammad whom they see as peaceful. To deny Islam means to be subhuman or less worthy. That is why the so-called moderate ‘peaceful’ Muslims are perfectly okay with the horrendous discrimination of Christians and other minorities in their countries.

It is not like they don’t have a say in how they treat Christians and other minorities. They do. They participate actively and knowingly in the day to day oppression of disbelievers.

That is why, if one has suffered in the hands of Muslims, one will not be so free to claim they are guiltless of the hate and violence propagated in the Quran. To those in the West who want to think the best of their fellow human being (albeit of the Muslim persuasion) please spend some time in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and openly proclaim your faith - then you will see what it is like, particularly when your children are oppressed.

Rodrigo

 

[Montalban]

terrostic violence perpetrated by Muslims around the world?

Actually I see quite a bit, by the average Moslem in western nations.

The problems are
a) this is for western consumption
b) they’re not usually religious leaders
c) they’re not preaching this in majority Islamic nations

in other words they’re either genuinely misguided about the true nature of Islam - influenced as they are by Judeo-Christian values here in the west, or they’re out to deceive on purpose in order to help Islam

 

[Booklover]

Having lived in a Muslim country for some time with Muslim relatives and friends I can tell from personal experience that there is no such thing as a ‘moderate’ Muslim. They all believe that the Quran is the literal word of god, and that killing/oppressing disbelievers is peaceful. They have no problems with those verses in the Quran that say this - and there are many oppressive verses in the Quran.

Every Friday they go to the mosque where the imams rail against Westerners, Christians and assorted disbelievers - and they believe this.

Why do they not act on jihad? Because they are weak. Don’t forget these ‘peace-loving’ ‘moderate Muslims’ are fully aware of and condone the oppression of Christians and other minorities in their country. They know full well what dhimmitude is - and how the dhimmis suffer - and they have never had a problem with this for 14 centuries.

Not many Muslims befriend Christians in my former country - why? Because the Muslims are told to not take Christians for friends by the Quran. With such widespread ‘apartness’ there is no dialogue and has never had dialogue except that of Muslim masters and Christian slaves.

Many so-called moderate Muslims can’t understand why Christians and other minorities are so obstinate to deny the truth of Muhammad whom they see as peaceful. To deny Islam means to be subhuman or less worthy. That is why the so-called moderate ‘peaceful’ Muslims are perfectly okay with the horrendous discrimination of Christians and other minorities in their countries.

It is not like they don’t have a say in how they treat Christians and other minorities. They do. They participate actively and knowingly in the day to day oppression of disbelievers.

That is why, if one has suffered in the hands of Muslims, one will not be so free to claim they are guiltless of the hate and violence propagated in the Quran. To those in the West who want to think the best of their fellow human being (albeit of the Muslim persuasion) please spend some time in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and openly proclaim your faith - then you will see what it is like, particularly when your children are oppressed.

Rodrigo

Rodrigo, an excellent post as usual! Why are there so many people out there who refuse to see the truth about Islam!

Vickie

 

[Mark_Marilyn]

Rodrigo, an excellent post as usual! Why are there so many people out there who refuse to see the truth about Islam!

Vickie

Re:

That is why, if one has suffered in the hands of Muslims, one will not be so free to claim they are guiltless of the hate and violence propagated in the Quran. To those in the West who want to think the best of their fellow human being (albeit of the Muslim persuasion) please spend some time in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and openly proclaim your faith - then you will see what it is like, particularly when your children are oppressed. --Rodrigo

I’m really sorry to say this but I do have some serious reservations and hedge on certain points re. some Muslim countries, --even tho’ I, too, and friends of mine have indeed “suffered at the hands of [bad] muslims” in the Middle East and Libya. We experienced two ugly situations within the first week in Syria --but were helped by good Samaritan-like people, too!-- and my friend, after finally leaving Libya and landing in Switzerland, literally kissed the ground at the tarmac.
But aren’t your bad encounters in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia more from evil/primitive tribalism and nationalist bigotry and racism rather than Islam per se?
In our travels, Turkey and Malaysia are far more benign places generally with local people having more civil, even hospitable attitudes than in your unfortunate experiences. In Turkey, Malaysia and some other areas, Islam seems more benign and relatively innocent compared to some trouble spots today (such as the south of Thailand which we do NOT recommend). We have met some wonderfully kind, generous, even hospitable families in Turkey, Malaysia, and even Syria, who helped us enormously and even invited us into their homes (generally more often in Turkey, but over-tourism could change things). Without the occasional good Samaritans, life in the Middle East would have been unbearable.
I think the problem is with immature, belligerent tribalism and bigotry, rather than Islam per se.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

mark & marilyn:

I’m really sorry to say this but I do have some serious reservations and hedge on certain points re. some Muslim countries, --even tho’ I, too, and friends of mine have indeed “suffered at the hands of [bad] muslims” in the Middle East and Libya. We experienced two ugly situations within the first week in Syria --but were helped by good Samaritan-like people, too!-- and my friend, after finally leaving Libya and landing in Switzerland, literally kissed the ground at the tarmac.
But aren’t your bad encounters in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia more from evil/primitive tribalism and nationalist bigotry and racism rather than Islam per se?
In our travels, Turkey and Malaysia are far more benign places generally with local people having more civil, even hospitable attitudes than in your unfortunate experiences. In Turkey, Malaysia and some other areas, Islam seems more benign and relatively innocent compared to some trouble spots today (such as the south of Thailand which we do NOT recommend). We have met some wonderfully kind, generous, even hospitable families in Turkey, Malaysia, and even Syria, who helped us enormously and even invited us into their homes (generally more often in Turkey, but over-tourism could change things). Without the occasional good Samaritans, life in the Middle East would have been unbearable.
I think the problem is with immature, belligerent tribalism and bigotry, rather than Islam per se.

I’m sorry to inform you that fleeting travel visits are not the same as actually living one’s life in a Muslim country.

People are nicer to tourists than to dhimmis. Tourists also don’t interact with the local people to the same degree and you don’t get exposed to the problems.

Try living in a country where you’re despised day in and day out - that your education and job prospects are poorer because of your religion. You are abused almost on a daily basis - and your family has spent several centuries of similar discrimination and persecution. You have to be twice as good as a Muslim to become his subordinate and you can never aspire to the top positions in government.

You see your children similarly abused and threatened on a daily basis. Your recourse to the law is minimized because you’re of the wrong religion.

Why don’t you go ask the Egyptian Copts how they have suffered under Islam?

Turkey is a secularized Islamic country and Malaysia has a sizeable non-Muslim population. Why don’t you ask the non-Muslims in Malaysia how it feels to be dhimmis? You think Malaysia is tolerant? This is what the non-Muslims have to suffer:

1. Strict quotas on government jobs - almost nil jobs in the military and police and some government ministries.
2. Limited spaces in higher education.
3. Having to give up 50% of your company to a non-contributing Muslim partner - i.e. you just gave 50% of your wealth away to someone who didn’t contribute a cent.
4. Having to buy houses and land at 10% premium.
5. Government scholarships for higher education is only for Muslims. Non-Muslims need not apply.

That is the most moderate Muslim country I have ever come across. There may be other more moderate like Khazakhstan but I’ve never been there.

How would you like to live where you have little rights to higher education, and you have to give away 50% of your hard-earned wealth to someone else?

Other Muslim countries discriminate against non-Muslims evern worse - just ask the Copts.