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TrueLight
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Wow. I don’t like to use the word uncharitable as it is overused on CAF, but this post is really uncharitable to those whom God has given musical gifts and who hone and perfect their gifts for use in his service.
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Bonnie
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Hear! Hear! It’s not just the tunes, but the lyrics of many popular songs which are the problem. If they lyrics promote a non-Catholic theology, I refuse to sing them. I don’t have a copy of the OCP hymnal (which is the only one our parish uses) so I can’t come up with any titles other than the one that I protested vigorously - Lord of the Dance. The pastor at the time agreed with me & the choir didn’t sing it. Now with another pastor who doesn’t care, they sing it on occasion.
The ones that supposedly “quote” Scripture don’t - they are “based” on Scripture. It bothers me (& I can’t describe why) to sing the words that belong to Jesus without attribution. I simply cannot sing “I am the bread of life” & others of that type.
If I had any musical talent at all, I’d be in the choir & make myself heard. As it is, without a decent singing voice, it’s assumed that I know nothing about music or appropriate lyrics.
Some of our choir members think it’s cool if the music gets people clapping & the kids dancing in the pews. But I’m from a Pentecostal background & I see problems, not spirituality.
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pnewton
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You are so mistaken. Some people, who are really talented, give themselves to assist at Mass. To say someone stinks because they are of great talent is narrow-minded, and rather ridiculous. Your post assumes the worse in musicians, thinking they want an audience, as opposed to offering service. Do you want people to always assign base motives everytime you give of yourself?
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Sarabande
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Read my previous post. It is sometimes and often (depending on the parish) not that the music is played in too high of a key. I’ve found from the numerous parishes where I’ve cantored and from talking to people that it has something to do with the frequency of the cantor’s voice (and it’s not just with soprano voices… it can also happen with male voices) as people have often thanked me for singing in lower keys when I’m actually singing in the exact same key as other cantors. The only reason I found out about these things was from talking to the people in the pews and seeing how it often has nothing to do with the music being played in too high or low of a key.
Most music for hymnals are written in singable keys which don’t go off the staff. If the voice of the cantor is balanced, it does make a person feel comfortable singing and not feel they are singing in too high or too low of a key. If you read music, you can tell from the music in the hymnal if the organist is playing in a higher or lower key. I have also found that even if it is in a lower key, if the cantor sings only with the high frequency of his/her voice, he/she will make it sound “high”. This is where a certain quality of voice or good training of a voice can make a world of difference in making something “singable”.
Also, I forgot to mention it in my previous post, but certain registrations on the organ can make a hymn sound like it is in a higher or lower key, especially to those who can’t read music. So, those things do have to be taken into consideration.
Now, there are people who have transposed hymns to much higher keys than what are found in the hymnals, but it isn’t a common occurrence from the churches I’ve freelanced in. There are also hymns which aren’t written in such a way that it can be sung easily and can make it feel too high. For instance, if it just sits in the upper part of the staff all the time or if there are too many long interval jumps which can make it difficult for an untrained voice to negotiate. Some composers or music writers aren’t always successful or good at writing for certain instruments, including the voice. He/she might be great writing for the piano, for example, but might stink transcribing it for a flute or guitar. You can always tell when someone who transcribed an orchestral piece or another instrumental piece for a piano or organ actually doesn’t play those instruments. Some might understand what the typical range of a certain voice is, but they may not know how to compose it in such a way that it won’t be a strain on the voice. So, too, can it be the case for certain hymn writers or those who transcribe or transpose vocal music for the congregations. They might write within the typical range of most untrained voices, but not in the most comfortable way.
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Bonnie
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Hmmm - not being musically trained myself, I wonder if that could be what happens with my favorite singer at church (I’ve asked her to sing at my funeral!
). When she sings a cappella I can sing along (usually). But when she is accompanied by the classical guitar, she seems to be singing higher & out of my limited range.
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Cat
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Boldface mine–this comment demonstrates a lack of knowledge about music.
I have done a study of the hymns in the Catholic hymnal. Almost all of the hymns, especially the contemporary hymns (written in the last 40 years), are written so that the melody is in the alto/bass range–in other words, the LOW VOICE range.
The highest note in most hymns is D above high C (D above C2). This is an ALTO (or Bass if sung an octave lower) note, and should be comfortable for anyone who knows how to sing properly.
The problem isn’t the key signature. The hymns are NOT “too high.”
The problem is that most people today do not know how to sing correctly, probably because they were never taught in school. It’s also possible that they were taught correctly by a good music teacher, but that they turned up their noses at the teaching and continued to sing in “pop style,” which is often through the nose, or using the throat, a technique that fries the vocal chords and makes it painful for a person to sing or even speak.
What needs to happen is that people have to “go back to school,” so to speak, and learn how to sing properly. I have often suggested on this board and in real life that people either individually, or as a small group, hire a voice teacher and take just a few lessons on proper techniques for singing. Many choir directors will teach these techniques during the warmups for choir; unfortunately, due to busy schedules, many people in the choir dash in after the warmups are over, and so they miss out on this little bit of education. And people who are not in the choir (the vast majority of the congregation) never get any of this little bit of voice training–perhaps the music director should “warm up” the congregation before Mass starts and teach them proper singing?
Believe me, we really do not want to see hymns written in a range much lower than what they written. It is very hard on the voice to consistently sing in a range lower than what you should be singing. It hurts the voice and eventually makes it painful to sing anything.
Also, it sounds “growly” and rather dead. The Alto/Bass range is a comfortable, pretty range, and this range should be used when hymns are arranged in hymnals.
Like I said, rather than singing badly, we need to sing correctly. I don’t understand why some people are so quick to insist that the liturgy be done with absolute accuracy (and I agree with this), but they are not so quick to agree that singing should be done correctly with proper vocal techniques. Why not do ALL with excellence, or at least our best effort, in the Holy Mass?
One other thing I want to add–some people wonder why the organist/pianist doesn’t just “transpose” the “high” hymns (which aren’t really high) into a lower key so that everyone can sing along. The answer is that many of us can’t transpose instantly. I am learning to transpose without pushing a button (many of the modern keyboards have such buttons), but I didn’t grow up using that particular system of piano. I wish I had. I’m learning it now that I am taking organ lessons, as transposition to a HIGHER KEY are common when a good organist plays hymns in church. But I’m not very good at it yet. Jazz musicians can do this kind of “instant transposition,” but all too often, jazz musicians are not playing in Catholic Masses.
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Sarabande
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Perhaps that could be happening. Although, having worked with a few guitarists and classical guitarists, they sometimes have transcriptions of music in a key that is easier for their instrument rather than for the actual singer. It is either lower or higher than the original key. That said, the music I’m thinking about is more for vocal solo music. For most hymns, you can see that they have the guitar transcriptions in the exact key as is written for the piano or organ. OR, if she is singing a capella, she could be starting the music in a slightly lower key.Hmmm - not being musically trained myself, I wonder if that could be what happens with my favorite singer at church (I’ve asked her to sing at my funeral!
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A_G
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My favorite for Church is the Gregorian Chant.
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Sarabande
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Thanks for pointing that out. It is so rare that hymns are written any higher than the D2. Once in a while you might see an D#2 or an E2, but it’s uncommon. That said, there are still hymns which are written within the normal range of ***most ***people (let’s face it, you’ll always have those voices which could be Russian basses or coloratura sopranos if they were trained and you just can’t accommodate all voices
)and if it isn’t composed in such a way which is easily navigable by the voice, it can be difficult for untrained singer and could feel too high.Well, people really aren’t taught how to sing anymore in school. Or, as I’ve seen in some schools, the teachers will often use the kind of music which encourages the belting style of singing that you see in some musical theater and pop singing. As you say, it does ruin vocal chords, especially if people start doing it as children before the vocal chords are fully developed. It used to be that children would sing in a more “classical” way due to the music used (and I’m not talking about classical vocal music, just normal music that doesn’t require the belter, pop style of singing) and their vocal chords would be preserved. They could sing the normal ranges later on in life or even with a more developed vocal range.
So, you do bring up a good point that part of the problem is this kind of singing along with what I’ve discovered with vocal frequency, singing with the complete body, a balance of the low and high frequency of the voice rather than just with one frequency , previously mentioned in my other posts. I know that is also very prevalent because those comments from parishioners thinking that I sing the hymns in lower keys than some of the other cantors when we are always singing in the same key are made in almost every parish I’ve ever cantored in.
I’ve only run across a few Catholic church musicians who could do transpositions on sight. It is a wonderful gift when they can do it. I’ve worked with a few incredible voice accompanists for my classical vocal repertoire who could transpose some of the most difficult music at sight and with no problem whatsoever. One example was transposing the Rossini “Una voce poco fa” from F to E at sight and if you’ve ever seen the piano transcription of that, especially at the lightening speed it has to be sung since it’s all coloratura, it’s a beast. But they are trained to do that because they are constantly working with singers. That said, it’s not like they all like doing that, especially during “performance”. And even I don’t like the transpose at sight while I’m singing and looking at music in a different key which is being played. I don’t have perfect pitch, but my relative pitch is so good, if I see an E, but hear an F or another note being played when the sheet music is in another key, it is a little “annoying”. haha!
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iloveangels
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Performing for the sake of performing should not be going on in church. And if someone is off key or they don’t know the music well, they don’t sound good. I fail to see how it’s a problem to state the truth.
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iloveangels
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I’ve been in a number of choirs. But the problem is not that the laypeople don’t know music. RATHER, the problem is that they struggle when they try to sing. If the idea is to have the people in the pews singing, then finding music in a key so that they don’t have to struggle is what we have to do. Forget arguing with them over it. Make it so they don’t struggle!
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Leegal
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We do gospel for the recessional hymn. I will NOT clap.
Actually, our choir director is rather uninspired, IMHO.
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Bonnie
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This brings up a question of mine. Since we don’t have the words to the hymns memorized, that means we have to have our attention on the hymnal. OK most of the time, but during the Offertory I have a problem with this. Once the priest takes up the offerings I stop singing (if I even started) & pay attention to what is going on at the altar. Our Sunday choir sings thru the priest’s prayers, but I’m watching & reply (very, very, softly) Blessed be God forever. Then he has to wait for the choir to stop singing before he can continue with the words of the Mass that have to be said aloud.
The Offertory is an important part of the Mass & most people miss it because they have their eyes on the hymnal.
Is it done this way in other parishes around the country? The ones I’ve been to in the NW are mixed - some do, some don’t.
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Sarabande
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Again, I think, then, it has more to do with the frequency they are hearing and perhaps the cantors need to have better training in not just singing with the high frequency part of their voice and learn how to balance it with the lower frequency of their voices. Unfortunately, that takes money for the training, though, and most cantors are volunteers who have little or not training. They also often times can’t afford the training.
I have literally sung in over 100 parishes in about 8 different states as a cantor because of my freelance work and as I have said before, at almost all of those parishes, people have always thought I sang in a lower key and thanked me for making it easier for them to sing. I never sing in a lower key than what is written in the music. The organist or other instrumentalists usually don’t either and usually don’t transpose the keys for the other singers. I’ve been there when the people in congregation complain to me about certain cantors. I’ve stayed for their masses just to attend mass as a congregant and they don’t sing in a different key. Same key as me.
Honestly, with most of those hymns, if they transpose it down lower, it will be just as difficult to sing because it sits too low in most voices. Also, many hymnals have at least two keys for the hymns. Even with the lower key choice, some people think it is too high if a certain cantor is singing them or if the organist uses a certain registration, making it “sound” high.
So, perhaps it is more up to the musicians to figure out what works best for the ears and to then figure out how to get the cantors to sing with a more balanced voice without it being too costly. Otherwise, we’ll always be hearing these complaints. Maybe, don’t even use a cantor at all for the hymns, especially if the hymns are well-known.
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Sarabande
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What I’ve experienced at the parishes I currently work at and where I freelance, the music director is usually pretty good at timing the music so that they finish the music by the time the priest is finished to continue the mass. The only time I’ve been able to reply the “Blessed be God forever” is when there is no music for the offertory or if the choir does a short motet or there is a vocal solo or instrumental where it can be ended earlier. At one of the parishes I used to work, for almost all of the masses except for their choral mass, we only had an organ instrumental during the offertory. For the Christmas and Easter seasons, though, we’d sometimes sing a hymn there. Otherwise, the congregation rarely had to look at a hymnal during that point since it was either organ instrumental or the choir. It gave everyone else the opportunity to just pay attention at the altar.
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pnewton
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I guess this is what bothers me. Unless you were a close friend of the singer, how would you know when someone does this, or if anyone does this?
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pnewton
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This is a good question. The preparation of the altar can be done by the priest (deacon or acolyte) in private, or spoke aloud with a response. This is the choice of the priest.
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TheMc
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Yet another reason for the choir or cantor to sing the propers. As you seem to hint at here, the propers can bring about an even greater active participation than singing common hymns every week.
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archangel04
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Very sad uh? I feel it is an injustice that was done to my generation and others as well.
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