Why so many complaints about the music

[Kathryn_Ann]

I guess that music moves people so strongly and that people have strong preferences too, about what is uplifting and what is perhaps to them, more secular. One person might really love traditional music and really not feel comfortable with modern hymns.

I love a mixture of both. I’m very traditional, but am delighted when, several times a year, the young people sing some very lively music, even “Day by Day” from Godspell. It may not appeal to everyone, but I think it’s joyous. I try to remember that whenever I hear a hymn that I’m not familiar with and try not to judge. :harp::heaven::harp:

 

[pnewton]

Yet another reason for the choir or cantor to sing the propers. As you seem to hint at here, the propers can bring about an even greater active participation than singing common hymns every week.

I have serious reservations on whether a singing of the propers would end complaints about the music, anymore than going to all chant would make everyone happy.

 

[Cat]

I have found it is easier to change the key. It’s not like I can teach anyone in the Church how to sing. I transpose quite a bit of the hymns.

If you’re using a keyboard (Clavinova, etc.), or if you have an organ with the Magic Button, that works.

I play piano, and sometimes I can transpose a piece without writing it out, but not usually. I wish I could.

But I still say that transposing a hymn to a lower key often makes the hymn sound growly and gloomy and dead as a doornail. Some keys are brighter than others, and I like to leave hymns in those “bright” keys.

A half-step or so is OK, but much lower than that, IMO, is not very pretty at all.

Also, you have the problem with all the higher voices in the congregation, especially the trebles (children)–if things get too low, they can’t sing it. Now if the Catholic hymnals had four parts written in, then the sopranos could read the tenor line and sing it an octave up–my younger daughter does that. And sometimes, sopranos can make up descants, if they are experienced singers.

But for some reason that I cannot fathom, Catholic hymnals do not have four parts. In fact, quite a few of the hymns don’t even have any melody line written in, and many do not even specify a melody (e.g., “Hyfrydol”). (The accompanist’s version does have all this extra stuff.)

I assume it has something to do with cost of inserting this extra print. So why don’t Catholic hymnals have fewer hymns, and perhaps fewer Mass settings, and then there would be more room for the four part harmony? Provide congregations with a nice selection of traditional and contemporary hymns suitable for Mass, a Psalter, and two Mass settings, one traditional and one contemporary–maybe this would make it possible to print the parts rather than just the lyrics.

 

[Sarabande]

I have serious reservations on whether a singing of the propers would end complaints about the music, anymore than going to all chant would make everyone happy.

My former parish tried to implement only propers using “By Flowing Waters” because they were following the directions of the diocese’ Director of Worship and basically cut out all hymns, except for the recessionals. Unfortunately, because the music in “By Flowing Waters” is not really that nice, people complained. The parish only did traditional hymns and they missed singing those hymns. Enough people in the parish spoke up and the music director found music which set the propers to the traditional hymnody the congregation was used to and loved. That worked very well and was a good compromise.

 

[Sarabande]

]I guess that music moves people so strongly and that people have strong preferences too, about what is uplifting and what is perhaps to them, more secular. One person might really love traditional music and really not feel comfortable with modern hymns.

I love a mixture of both. I’m very traditional, but am delighted when, several times a year, the young people sing some very lively music, even “Day by Day” from Godspell. It may not appeal to everyone, but I think it’s joyous. I try to remember that whenever I hear a hymn that I’m not familiar with and try not to judge. :harp::heaven::harp:

The bolded part is an important point. It’s also important to note that what we are hearing now is actually nothing new. People have always tried to get secular styles of music used at mass for centuries because it was something they just liked or because it moved them. Original polyphony had a more secular sound and its use for mass was banned because of it. In other centuries, it was other styles of music. During each of those periods, it was required and took time for the composers and musicians to figure out a way to modify and refine the styles so that it was more in line with liturgical, sacred music and less “secular”.

You had mentioned “Day by Day” from Godspell. Technically, because it is from a musical, it shouldn’t be used because musical theater is a secular art form and is not permitted for use in church. It would be like someone using an “Ave Maria” composed for an opera (and there are a few… you will see the heroine singing some kind of prayer to the Blessed Mother for help of some sort.) Because the “Ave Maria” is from a secular art form… an opera… it cannot be used. Plus the style and the way the music calls for it to be sung would be way too secular for mass. There is a lot of religious classical vocal literature I’d love to sing for mass, but if I can’t modify my voice, then I don’t feel comfortable doing it as sacred literature for mass.

I will note, on a personal level, it doesn’t actually bother me if a religious piece from a secular art form or if the music is too secular in sound (for me, too operatic since I’m a classical singer and also an operatic singer), but because I know what is and is not permitted for use at liturgy, I do feel uncomfortable and wrong if I am required by my superior to sing that music for mass. I do it because it’s my superior/boss and have to do what I am told, but I know that I will be blamed for it and not the superior since it’s my voice/face on the music.

 

[ProVobis]

I have serious reservations on whether a singing of the propers would end complaints about the music, anymore than going to all chant would make everyone happy.

No doubt about that.

I also think that in many if not most parishes, this is not that big of a deal. Especially since, for example, the 8am Mass could be a minimal music Mass, the 9:30am could be a guitar or piano Mass, the 11:00 could be an organ Mass, etc. So if one is really sensitive about the music, he or she would take the Mass times into account. I’m not a professional musician but it seems like when it’s the same for every Mass and when certain hymns are overplayed and the people have no say in the matter is when you start getting on people’s nerves.

 

[Sarabande]

I also think that in many if not most parishes, this is not that big of a deal. Especially since, for example, the 8am Mass could be a minimal music Mass, the 9:30am could be a guitar or piano Mass, the 11:00 could be an organ Mass, etc. So if one is really sensitive about the music, he or she would take the Mass times into account. I’m not a professional musician but it seems like when it’s the same for every Mass and when certain hymns are overplayed and the people have no say in the matter is when you start getting on people’s nerves.

This is true. At a couple parishes around us, we know not to attend the evening masses because it is the teen mass. At an old parish of ours, the contemporary/folk group played every other week, at a 9:30 mass, so we made sure not to attend that mass unless we had no choice. That parish used to do one kind of music at all of their masses, but too many complaints and people walking with their feet and money, so they sent us all a survey to get opinions and feeback on the music. My husband and I were very honest and were turned off by the music liturgy there. After the surveys, they compromised by having that contemporary/folk group only twice a month at one mass, the teen mass at night and then more traditional hymnody at the rest of the masses. It did what that parish wanted and most people were content with the compromises.

I guess the problem comes when there is only one mass on a Sunday. In that regard, you will never be able to please everyone and I think you probably would need to go with what the majority wants. At one of the parishes where I currently work as a cantor, they only have one mass and the music is mostly traditional hymnody (old and newer) with organ and with special music on holy days and special masses.

About a year back a couple people apparently asked if maybe a guitar could be brought in for mass once in a while. The pastor announced it in the bulletin and after mass about the possibility and asked for the parishioners thoughts. There was such a negative reaction by the majority of the congregation, the idea was killed. I personally don’t like guitars at mass and we have such a beautiful, real pipe organ with a good organist, but I kept my opinion to myself since I’m not a parishioner.

 

[couponfit]

why so many complaints on here about hymns or lack of hymns at mass?
i have to admit, some songs DO annoy me. but there seems to be many disgruntled people regarding the song choices?

Songs really impact on the mood tone and I use the word charisma to refer to the holy spirit’s presence.

 

[Cat]

No doubt about that.

I also think that in many if not most parishes, this is not that big of a deal. Especially since, for example, the 8am Mass could be a minimal music Mass, the 9:30am could be a guitar or piano Mass, the 11:00 could be an organ Mass, etc. So if one is really sensitive about the music, he or she would take the Mass times into account. I’m not a professional musician but it seems like when it’s the same for every Mass and when certain hymns are overplayed and the people have no say in the matter is when you start getting on people’s nerves.

I absolutely agree with this approach.

We are fortunate to have nine Masses on weekends at our parish, and each Mass has a different musical “style.” There is something for everyone.

I also think this approach makes better use of church musicians. For those musicians like myself who feel comfortable on the piano and who love playing for children, there is the Family Mass, along with other Masses that tend to have a heavier population of young families and children.

For the guitarists and bongo players, there is the "Adult Folk Mass " (which I can’t stand, BTW! )

For our excellent organist, there are the Masses which use traditional hymns (at least four of the Masses are like this).

And then there is the No-Music Mass, which gives all of the musicians a rest!

 

[YoungTradCath]

I absolutely agree with this approach.

We are fortunate to have nine Masses on weekends at our parish, and each Mass has a different musical “style.” There is something for everyone.

I also think this approach makes better use of church musicians. For those musicians like myself who feel comfortable on the piano and who love playing for children, there is the Family Mass, along with other Masses that tend to have a heavier population of young families and children.

For the guitarists and bongo players, there is the "Adult Folk Mass " (which I can’t stand, BTW! )

For our excellent organist, there are the Masses which use traditional hymns (at least four of the Masses are like this).

And then there is the No-Music Mass, which gives all of the musicians a rest!

I don’t mean to instigate, but doesn’t this approach at the very least create some division in the parish, or at least imply it?

 

[Sarabande]

I don’t mean to instigate, but doesn’t this approach at the very least create some division in the parish, or at least imply it?

In some parishes, it might, especially if the majority in the parish wants a certain kind and there is very small minority who wants something different. (At the parishes where I work, for example. If they tried to bring in a guitar mass at a couple of those parishes, there would be an uproar.) But I have found in the really large parishes with a lot of “diversity”, it can work well.

 

[countertenor]

I have serious reservations on whether a singing of the propers would end complaints about the music, anymore than going to all chant would make everyone happy.

I know from personal experience, that moving to the propers can make many people very angry, especially since many people don’t even know what they are, or why they’d be being sung. When they were introduced at the parish where I am director of music, even though I managed to still keep a hymn and sing the proper, people still complained that music was being taken away from them. I think a lot of people are going to complain any time something different is brought into the parish, and unfortunately as is so prevalent, in this culture, they make up reasons to justify their complaints, whether or not the complaint is valid.

 

[JGMendes4049]

I know from personal experience, that moving to the propers can make many people very angry, especially since many people don’t even know what they are, or why they’d be being sung. When they were introduced at the parish where I am director of music, even though I managed to still keep a hymn and sing the proper, people still complained that music was being taken away from them. I think a lot of people are going to complain any time something different is brought into the parish, and unfortunately as is so prevalent, in this culture, they make up reasons to justify their complaints, whether or not the complaint is valid.

That’s why the reason for using the propers must be explained to them.

 

[Sarabande]

That’s why the reason for using the propers must be explained to them.

Unfortunately, even when it is explained to them, you are still going to have backlash. At my former parish where they did this and it was explained by the priests what was going on and why, at first people gave it time, but then the complaints came. They wanted their traditional hymns back, even though it was explained to them. So, that is why they went to using the same hymn melodies they used in the past which already had the texts of the propers set to them. I can’t remember what music book the director used for it .

 

[YoungTradCath]

Unfortunately, even when it is explained to them, you are still going to have backlash. At my former parish where they did this and it was explained by the priests what was going on and why, at first people gave it time, but then the complaints came. They wanted their traditional hymns back, even though it was explained to them. So, that is why they went to using the same hymn melodies they used in the past which already had the texts of the propers set to them. I can’t remember what music book the director used for it .

Oh why oh why oh why were those hymns ever allowed in the first place? I shall never know. People have grown fond of them to the point of being dissatisfied with anything else.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t mean to instigate, but doesn’t this approach at the very least create some division in the parish, or at least imply it?

Fair point, but I don’t know if it will create more division than already existed. Don’t forget, that there was the same type of division prior to Vatican II mainly between those attending a Low Mass vs Sung Mass, for example. You will always have disagreement with music. Each person has his own set of auditory nerves and react differently to different sounds.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Fair point, but I don’t know if it will create more division than already existed. Don’t forget, that there was the same type of division prior to Vatican II mainly between those attending a Low Mass vs Sung Mass, for example. You will always have disagreement with music. Each person has his own set of auditory nerves and react differently to different sounds.

Are you saying that Low Masses and High Masses were offered regularly so as to accommodate for different musical preferences before VII?

 

[TheMc]

Are you saying that Low Masses and High Masses were offered regularly so as to accommodate for different musical preferences before VII?

Yeah! I thought low Masses were just for when high Masses are not possible.

 

[Kerry77]

I don’t mean to instigate, but doesn’t this approach at the very least create some division in the parish, or at least imply it?

I think it certainly implies a degree of division has occurred.

Similar to Spanish-language Masses, where you will end up with two parishes who happen to use the same church building.

 

[ProVobis]

Are you saying that Low Masses and High Masses were offered regularly so as to accommodate for different musical preferences before VII?

The vast majority of Masses were Low Masses, some of which had a hymn at the end. At our parish we had seven Sunday morning Masses, only one which was a Sung Mass, preceded by the Asperges Me and followed by a Benediction. But each parish had a different schedule, some even included sermons in other vernaculars, another cause/source of division.