Why so many "gay marriage" posts?

[Libero]

By the way Lisa N your getting very close to breaking conduct rule No. 5

 

[Brad]

Libero:

I am not openly disagreeing with chruch teaching, i am merely stating that some cardinals offer a very angry argument against homosexuality other than that of their religious belief. I think that posts by others are quite frankly nothing other than wrong when you read the generalisation from their comments.

Provide one item of evidence of a Cardinal teaching angrily against homosexuality that contradicts their religious belief. Unless you can do so, I cannot believe it to be so.

Libero:

I
I think that you will find that it is perhaps people like you Lisa N and Brad who so strongly defend only some parts of their religious teaching, to the point of an unhealthy obsession that is
the cause for catholicsim having the fastest reducing church attendndance figures than virtually any other religion.

You talk of charity? Charity begins with not making hasty generalizations that incorrectly describe intentions.

1. I defend ALL of the Church’s teaching. It is just that some is more under attack than others at a given time. This thread is attacking the Church’s teaching on marriage and homosexual activity. How would you have any idea that this is my sole focus? If it were up to me, I would never discuss homosexual behavior. Unfortunately, it is thrust upon us daily.
2. Church attendance has declined in Europe and the U.S. due to inconsistent, incorrect, and false teaching combined with a dilluted version of the Gospel message. People want something to stand for that is better and different then general secular society. Who would want to belong to just another group of people that do not do anything different?
   Regarding Church attendance in other countries, you are flat incorrect. The Church is growing rapidly in Africa, South America, and Asia.

Libero:

You fail to accept what has changed in the world today, changing the churches teaching into on of your own hatred, letting it take over the true teaching of love for all, and replacing it with one of anger, rather than showing your opininons in a polite manner you decide only to completely tear apart any comments that i have made. I did not expect to find such people on this forum with an over agression for their beliefs to the point of using the bible to excuse their homophobia. I hope that what i have heard is only a minorpart of your beliefs and you are not really so angry.

I’m not angry in the least. Perhaps you would care to counter my arguments rather than try to discredit them with some false notion of them being “angry” comments. Teaching the truth is a key component to charity. Have I said anything offensive other than the truth? If so, please show me. Also, I do not fear homosexuals as your “homophobe” name suggests. I care for their souls and their well-being. Homosexual behavior does harm to both.

However, I would suggest that calling Lisa and myself angry, a homophobe, a hate-teacher, impolite, and over-aggressive is less than charitable.

By the way, I don’t think Lisa is angry either. She just happens to also have good arguments that are consistent with the Church.

Libero:

To continue with the DEBATE (please remember what it is) i shall paste an address that is of a very informing web site showing the argument put forward by the baptist Bishop John Shelby Spong.

I hope that you can put into action the most important teaching of christianity for the next time that i hear from you.

Spong is out of line with the Baptist position, let alone the Catholic one. You can post it if you want but you won’t gain much traction here.

Perhaps next time for you, a little more debate and less lecture and berating.

 

[Libero]

In response to your post i think that yes you are correct in stating that you are not people representing the discriptions that i gave, most probably i interwined your names into that in part of a quick thinking typing mode, without much thought.

I do not agree with your statement that i lecture, i am well aware of how a debate works as i am a member of a debating society for well over a year now, and i think that you shall find that i was not the one just chanting out parts of the bible and chrisitan teachings to a new member of the forum.

That aside, i aknowledge that the church is growing very quickly in areas that you metioned, however the church is still shrinking just as quickly, in Europe.

I had chosen to counter others arguments, however i would hope that others would do the same to my arguments; which i am not entirely sure is the case.

1. I defend ALL of the Church’s teaching. It is just that some is more under attack than others at a given time. This thread is attacking the Church’s teaching on marriage and homosexual activity. How would you have any idea that this is my sole focus? If it were up to me, I would never discuss homosexual behavior. Unfortunately, it is thrust upon us daily.

i never thrust an argument into your face, if you wish not to discuss a topic then do not.

In comment about Cardinal Arinzes teaching on homosexuality i was not saying he goes against church teaching, but rather that the way he chooses to address the topic of homosexuality is one that goes aginst a common church principle of always loving one another. I think it is completely unfair to label someone terms such as a libertine without knowing them all individually.

Whilst claiming not to be angry in the way you write your posts is very well, i think that the blunt way that comments are written solely to discredit others views is hardly one that is done cheerfully.

I am dissapointed that you feel you have to defend all church teachings, is there never any subject you disagree with slightly and thus feel you could voice your discomfort?

Finally, bishop spong is very well liked within his community and perhaps this is due to his continuous support of people who often become discrimnated against, he chooses to defend all in a loving an intellectual nature. This can only be reflected by his success.

God Bless, i look forward to hearing from you again.

 

[Lisa_N]

Libero:

By the way Lisa N your getting very close to breaking conduct rule No. 5

And you believe this because?
Lisa N

 

[Libero]

as you took up alot of space copying out parts of my post, and then just making a comment underneath them, today at 09:13 am

 

[Lisa_N]

Libero:

I am not openly disagreeing with chruch teaching, i am merely stating that some cardinals offer a very angry argument against homosexuality other than that of their religious belief.

Please provide some evidence. I have not seen angry denunciation of homosexuals by any Cardinals. Frankly the Catholic approach is far more compassionate than some of the more fundamentalist types who say they are all going to hell.

Libero:

I think that posts by others are quite frankly nothing other than wrong when you read the generalisation from their comments.

I am afraid your sentence is absolutely incomprehensible. Can you please unpack this?

Libero:

I think that you will find that it is perhaps people like you Lisa N and Brad who so strongly defend only some parts of their religious teaching, to the point of an unhealthy obsession that is
the cause for catholicsim having the fastest reducing church attendndance figures than virtually any other religion. You fail to accept what has changed in the world today, changing the churches teaching into on of your own hatred

Funny how homosexual apologists always resort to accusations of ‘hate-speak’ if the detrimental and destructive aspects of homosexual activity are mentioned. You are also incorrect about Catholicism having the greatest reductions in membership. People are actually fleeing the liberal Protestant faiths in droves.

Libero:

, letting it take over the true teaching of love for all,

Loving someone does not mean affirming all they do. My nephew is in prison for a very serious crime. I love him but I don’t love what he did. You need to gain an understanding about truth in love. If someone you love is walking off a cliff do you stop him or just let him do it because he wants to?

Libero:

and replacing it with one of anger, rather than showing your opininons in a polite manner you decide only to completely tear apart any comments that i have made. I did not expect to find such people on this forum with an over agression for their beliefs to the point of using the bible to excuse their homophobia.

You don’t understand the word ‘phobia’ apparently. It means fear of. I have no fear of homosexuals. I also don’t believe there is ‘over aggression’ of beliefs on this thread. People who disagree with you are providing their sources. You only provide your opinions. I asked what evidence you had that the Church has ‘over reacted’ to homosexuals. You have provided none. So how about it? Would you like to back your opinions up?

As to using the Bible, I don’t bother when speaking to people who are not believers. There is plenty of evidence that would support the theory that homosexual activity is unhealthy, destructive, self destructive and unhygenic.

Libero:

I hope that what i have heard is only a minorpart of your beliefs and you are not really so angry.

I don’t see any anger on this thread. Everyone (well almost) is quite rational.

Libero:

To continue with the DEBATE (please remember what it is) i shall paste an address that is of a very informing web site showing the argument put forward by the baptist Bishop John Shelby Spong.

Bishop Shelby Spong WAS an Episcopalian which is enough baggage. He is now simply a heretic.

Libero:

I hope that you can put into action the most important teaching of christianity for the next time that i hear from you.

And in your opinion that would be?

Lisa N

 

[Lizzie]

Why are people promoting homosexual activity on a traditional Catholic website?

 

[Libero]

Cardinal Arinze caused alot of upset at an US University when he claimed that society was ‘mocked’ by homosexuality, the press responded very heavily.

I think that your statement (shown below - braceted part) was written in a questionable manner, perhaps in angry retortion?

I don’t see any anger on this thread. Everyone (well almost) is quite rational.

What were you implying there i wonder?

Your comment on Bishop Spong is hardly written with an equal balance of kind an unkind comments (yours is mainly unkind)

Surely you must agree that this comment is a generalisation:

There is plenty of evidence that would support the theory that homosexual activity is unhealthy, destructive, self destructive and unhygenic.

My opinion of the most important teaching of chrisitnaity is that it is the teaching that God highlighted was the most important - he said there were two most important teachings, they appear in the bible among other places, can you figure them out?

 

[Libero]

hello lizzie,

i am not promoting homosexual activity, i am merely trying to show that not all homosexuals engage in homosexual activity, and thus not all homosexuals should be condemmed. This has been affirmed by the catholic bishops of England and Wales, and appears on the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales website.

God Bless

 

[Lizzie]

It appears that you are.

The Pope can not change the rulings of the Catholic Church regarding homosexual acts.

Others here promote/defend gay marriage. That is a no-no.

 

[Libero]

sorry, i dont quite understand your post lizzie.

 

[bones_IV]

norbert:

But why is gay marriage part of the “culture of death?” Isn’t that overly dramatic? Nobody is dying. Get a grip.

You’ve got two options. Debate us hours on end with you heretical posts and cause the faithful here on the forum doubt. Or, get off this site!

 

[Lizzie]

Libero:

I am a brand new member so i please peresrvere,

. I hope God allows Benedict XVI to hold a less stern view towards homosexuality.

God Bless

You want God to change?
You want the Pope to change?
You claim beliefs about homosexuality have faded?

The Church’s position toward homosexuality is loving in that God wants the homosexual to be saved.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Libero:

I think that posts by others are quite frankly nothing other than wrong when you read the generalisation from their comments.

This is a generalization. Give examples. Comment on the examples.

Libero:

I think that you will find that it is perhaps people like you Lisa N and Brad who so strongly defend only some parts of their religious teaching, to the point of an unhealthy obsession

Please go into the profile pages of Lisa N and Brad and synopsize all of their posts. That will arrive at whether or not they defend only some parts of their religious teaching. If, in fact, their posts focus on SSM, then you must argue for unhealthy obsession. Define obsession. Define unhealthy. Refer to authority. Then discuss whether their focii fits under the definition of ‘unhealthy obsession.’

Libero:

that is the cause for catholicsim having the fastest reducing church attendndance figures than virtually any other religion.

A bit selective, don’t you think? Does this apply universally across the globe? In any case, this argument is not going to go very far with orthodox Catholics. We are expecting a smaller Church, and hoping for it. The question is whether we leave or whether the heterodox leave.

Libero:

You fail to accept what has changed in the world today

The infallible teaching of the Church does not relate to what changes in the world. Apples and oranges.

Libero:

changing the churches teaching into on of your own hatred

Specify the teaching, giving references and authoritative commentary. Define hatred, giving references and authoritative commentary. Oh by the way, seeing as how you have brought up the subject of hatred, please look into anti-Catholic hatred and the various forms it takes.

Libero:

letting it take over the true teaching of love for all

Specify the teaching of the Church on what constitutes Christian love. Specify what you mean by ‘true teaching of love.’ Compare and contrast.

Libero:

rather than showing your opininons in a polite manner you decide only to completely tear apart any comments that i have made.

You have yet to make an argument. There is nothing to tear apart. Oh well, not completely true. There has been your off-the-cuff, snarly rhetoric and unsubstantiated accusations. But those do not measure up to being an argument.

Libero:

I did not expect to find such people on this forum with an over agression for their beliefs to the point of using the bible to excuse their homophobia.

This is a generalism. Define ‘such people.’ A few, some, many, all? Would you prefer that we use the Church Fathers or the Encyclicals instead of the Bible? Are you sure you want to go there?

Libero:

To continue with the DEBATE (please remember what it is) i shall paste an address that is of a very informing web site showing the argument put forward by the baptist Bishop John Shelby Spong.

Well, well, well: the leopard shows his spots. This is a bid to convert Catholics to the Baptist church, is it? Are you sure it is the Baptist church? And not the Episcopal church? Whew, do you think you are the first person to try this on these boards? Most of recognize the methodology.

Libero:

I hope that you can put into action the most important teaching of christianity for the next time that i hear from you.

The most important teaching? Specify. Define. Your terminology ‘the next time that i hear from you’ is condescending as if you were speaking to deliquent children. It has been tried before and goes exactly nowhere with us.

 

[Lizzie]

Ani ibi:

Bishop Spong is an Anglican who hates fundamentalist Christians and ordains practicing homosexuals. He is one of those who are destroying that Church.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Lisa N:

What then would be the point of getting married? I think the idea that two homosexuals who are ‘married’ are to remain chaste is pretty unrealistic.

Lisa, psst. I’m with you but on this particular point is there a logical problem with married priests who are chaste after ordination? What would be the point in staying married? I guess staying married is different than getting married. Hmmm, as Gilda Radner used to say, “never mind!”

Fading beliefs? Do you really think that majority of Catholics are pro homosexual, pro female priests and pro clerical marriage? On what basis?

cont…

Gallup poll results published at CNN on April 3, 2005:

Two thirds of US Catholics said JPII will go down in history as one of the greatest pontiffs. (of course in my case, he’s about all I knew)

59% said they want a pope the same as JPII.

As to your specific questions:
CNN/Gallup poll:

Seventy-eight percent said the next pope should allow Catholics to use birth control, 63 percent said he should let priests marry and 59 percent said the next pope should have a less-strict policy on stem cell research.

Fifty-five percent said the next pope should allow women to become priests, while 44 percent said he should not. The question’s margin of error means the difference is too close to draw strong conclusions.

A majority of U.S. Catholics polled support John Paul’s unwavering stance against abortion rights. Asked whether the next pope should have a less strict policy, 59 percent said no, while 37 percent answered yes.

Respondents were split on the question of divorce. Asked whether the next pontiff, unlike John Paul, should allow Catholics to divorce and remarry, 49 percent said yes, while 48 percent said no.

These results would indicate that the majority of US Catholics do want married priests and female priests, but the article is silent on homosexuality.

Alan

 

[Lisa_N]

Alan in all fairness, that poll displays the typical America attitude that what WE want is what CATHOLICS want. I really don’t think that our attitude toward homosexuals, female priests etc is universal. Further there are as we know “Catholics” and Catholics and since the pollsters didn’t go into the respondents’ orthodoxy, I am not even sure this reflects the attitude of practicing Catholics.

BTW are you saying that priests who are ordained after being married must avoid sexual relations with their wives? I’d never heard that at all

Lisa N

 

[Lisa_N]

Libero:

Cardinal Arinze caused alot of upset at an US University when he claimed that society was ‘mocked’ by homosexuality, the press responded very heavily.?

So? That someone was upset does not mean that upset was justified. As to the press response, who cares? The press is one of the least respected groups in this country now.

Libero:

I think that your statement (shown below - braceted part) was written in a questionable manner, perhaps in angry retortion?.?

No, you honestly haven’t seen me angry. Your posts do not create ire, just curiousity. Frankly they are not supported by any sources so I keep hoping you will actually provide something but your opinions.

Libero:

Your comment on Bishop Spong is hardly written with an equal balance of kind an unkind comments (yours is mainly unkind)

Surely you must agree that this comment is a generalisation:?

No it is quite specific. In my former life as a Protestant I had a lot of contact with Bishop Spong’s writings and also attended a three day workshop he gave here in Portland. I am quite well acquainted with his beliefs and I am not sure that God is involved. He is a heretic.

Libero:

My opinion of the most important teaching of chrisitnaity is that it is the teaching that God highlighted was the most important - he said there were two most important teachings, they appear in the bible among other places, can you figure them out?

Being coy doesn’t help your cause. How about love your God with all your heart and all your soul and your neighbor as yourself? Now how do you show you love God? By following his commandments. Being more obsessed with personal sexual satisfaction than anything else is a form of self worship and violates the first commandment.

Lisa N

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Lizzie:

Ani ibi:

Bishop Spong is an Anglican who hates fundamentalist Christians and ordains practicing homosexuals. He is one of those who are destroying that Church.

Just testing to see if Libero knew that.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Libero:

My opinion of the most important teaching of chrisitnaity is that it is the teaching that God highlighted was the most important - he said there were two most important teachings, they appear in the bible among other places, can you figure them out?

Lisa N:

Being coy doesn’t help your cause.

It being evident that Libero’s position is light on argumentation and reference, it seems he has adopted the Weary Professor ploy. The Weary Professor ploy is usually coupled with a link to an AC website and claims for credentials as an expert commentator.

Libero would be well served if he actually discussed the biblical references and the Catholic writing on the subject at hand.