Why so many Protestant denominations

[paidion]

Paidion wonders if the last several posts indicate a dis-unity among the Catholics…gee, does that mean all Catholics disagree this way?? Does this mean the Catholic church is not unified?? Could individual members in the Church be listening to someone/thing other than Christ? Does this also mean that everything about the Catholic Church is wrong?

:doh2:

Perhaps this is why there are so many Protestant denominations???

 

[Kay_Cee]

I don’t see how on earth you can bring up the topic of “teachings” when that wasn’t part of the discussion. Nobody metioned “teachings”. Jesus didn’t, John didn’t, I didn’t.

Ah, but you brought up the subject of different churches. What makes churches different from each other is their teachings. So the topic of teachings was implicit in stating that they were different churches.

The point of the scripture was to show that no one, not even an Apostle of Christ is to concern themselves with what other’s do outside of The Church. They need to focus on The Flock, not be distracted by the doings of others.

Sorry, but I disagree with this in the strongest manner possible.

Millions upon millions of people never receive Christ–Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity–in the Eucharist. Shouldn’t I be concerned about that?

Millions upon millions of people never receive the Fullness of Truth found in the Catholic faith. Shouldn’t I be concerned about that?

So, yeah, I’m concerned with what others do outside the Church.

Well, if that’s what you got out of it, fine. What I got out of it is that John shouldn’t concern himself others working in Jesus’ name.

A little hard to tell what you mean here since it looks like you left out a preposition.

So then if that’s what you got out of it (exorcisms), do you believe that anybody can cast out demons and “not” just Priests?

Since you brought it up, please show me where scripture or Church teachings claim one has to be a priest in order to cast out a demon.

You’re preaching to the choir, but that has nothing to do with this scripture. I agree with you on that. The teaching that I received from this scripture is that we are not to try to forbid (don’t forget that while John was an Apostle, he was first a Disciple as are we all) others from doing works in Jesus’ name.

But that’s not what you said. You said it was about other churches.

I would say that The Apostles are foundation upon which Jesus’ Church is built upon. Therefore, where walked The Apostles, walked the foundations of The Church and those who walked “with” The Apostles were Jesus’ Church.

And, at that moment in time, The Church outside of the living, breathing, pre-crucifixion Christ hadn’t been created yet. That came later on in the upper room in Acts.

If what you say is true, how could your quote be about different churches?

What bothers me about your interpretation is that it implies having different churches is okay (please correct me if I’m wrong). It’s not okay. I notice you did not address at all the scripture quotes I gave you.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Paidion wonders if the last several posts indicate a dis-unity among the Catholics…gee, does that mean all Catholics disagree this way?? Does this mean the Catholic church is not unified?? Could individual members in the Church be listening to someone/thing other than Christ? Does this also mean that everything about the Catholic Church is wrong?

:doh2:

Perhaps this is why there are so many Protestant denominations???

No, the Catholic Church has one set of official teachings from which it never deviates.

 

[2ndGen]

No its not-you claimed that Christ told us to found other Churchs.

Where? Quote where I said that “Christ told us to found other Churchs”.

You backed that up by quoting billy Graham and giving us your personal interpreation of a few verses in Scripture.

Now show me where I used the example of Billy Graham (if ever there was a true example of a Non-Catholic ideal Christian, he’s the one) and my scripture to prove “Christ told us to found other Churchs”.

I, BTW, dont have an interpetion of these verses. I follow Church teachings-there is no need for me to parse scripture verses,

So then you believe that Jesus told John to “not” forbid any Christian that was “not” talking against His Church?

Right?

 

[2ndGen]

Paidion wonders if the last several posts indicate a dis-unity among the Catholics…gee, does that mean all Catholics disagree this way?? Does this mean the Catholic church is not unified?? Could individual members in the Church be listening to someone/thing other than Christ? Does this also mean that everything about the Catholic Church is wrong?

:doh2:

Perhaps this is why there are so many Protestant denominations???

Let me put your wonderment to rest for you then…

…do bob and I disagree on doctrine?

No.

Do we disagree on the translation of a given scripture?

Possibly.

Do we have the same favorite football team or do we drive the same color/year/make car? Highly unlikely.

Being “one” does’nt mean relinquishing one’s identity and erasing what it is that makes them.

I’ll guarentee you right now that bob and I would tag team anybody who would discredit The Church.

See, we were told to be one in the matters of doctrine.

His disagreement with me is the emphasis and meaning of the scripture.

It’s not like we’re changing the words to suit our personal interpretations. We’re still both looking at the same words.

And if “this” exchange justifies Protestants, then you can go back to and blame the very Apostles who Christ chose for they too had discussions such as these, but I can pretty much guarentee you that neither I, nor bob will be running out any time soon to start our own church just because we interpret a scripture differently. He’s not going to abandon The Holy Eucharist nor I The Papacy "just’ because we are discussing Scripture.

We argue in the opposite direction that do Protestants who argue. We argue for the common union of The Church where’s Protestants who argue with us argue for the justification “of” The Church. Big diference.

 

[2ndGen]

No, the Catholic Church has one set of official teachings from which it never deviates.

Amen.

 

[2ndGen]

Ah, but you brought up the subject of different churches. What makes churches different from each other is their teachings. So the topic of teachings was implicit in stating that they were different churches.

 

[Kay_Cee]

2ndGen:

Here is what you said, your exact words from post #416:

Jesus said told John to not try to stop people of other churches.

And here’s why I have such a problem with it (and why I asked for a scriptural reference):

At the time Jesus was talking to John, there was, at the most, *one *Church. There were no other churches and would not be for over a thousand years. So how can Jesus be telling John not to stop people *of other churches *since there would be no other churches until over a millenia after John died?

Do you see? It just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Did the scripture state that the person working in Jesus’ name was teaching a different teaching? No.

It also doesn’t say he belonged to a different church.

If you have a calling to feel concerned, then that’s your calling. I can’t tell you what you should be concerned with and I think that if that’s your calling, that’s a beautiful thing. I can tell you this, we all have to work out our own salvation (of which The Holy Eucharist is a part of). Speaking for myself, I’m to busy trying to get it right my own self.

Should we stop missionary work, then?

Again, it sounds like a calling you have and I could never decide for you what should concern you. That’s between you and God, however, if you feel so strongly, then I expect you should do something about it.

I do. I participate on these forums.

I guess you’ve gotten to the point where you are a perfect worshipper then and have been given authority to judge how others worship?

I can do without the sarcasm. I didn’t treat you this way.

No, it’s the accuser who has the burden of proof. However, I’ve seen a scripture where a man who “wasn’t” a Priest was casting out demons in Jesus’ and an Apostle forbad him and Jesus corrected the Apostle who tried to stop him however.

I’m sorry you think I’m making accusations. And I never said only a priest could cast out demons.

Churches were never excluded from the verse.

Mayonnaise was never excluded from the verse. Should I then conclude the verse is about mayonnaise? Also, churches were never included in the verse.

You are wrong. I never implied that starting other churches (men) was ever ok. I outrightly stated that we are not to judge those who’ve done this. That’s only Jesus’ place to judge.

Well, I’m glad to hear I was wrong about that. I was hoping I was.

As far as judging is concerned, we can judge the *actions *of others. We can say something is a sin.

What scriptures? Please remind me. Maybe I agreed with your interpretation and that’s why I didn’t mention them.

Okay, checking back, I see you did cover that. (It’s hard to tell when all I’m working with is the “quote” function, that is, all I see is your text and not what I said in my original post.)

 

[paidion]

What I couldn’t show through the emot-icons was “a tongue-in-cheek”. #560 wasn’t meant to be a serious reply… it was meant to illustrate that the differences in denomination are primarily minor issues - what color should the carpet be, what kind of music will be allowed during service…

There are basic truths of Christianity to which all who fall under the category “Christian” adhere. Both Catholics and non-RCs agree on many points of doctrine. Having lived in various places around the world I have seen more of a continuity of beliefs in non-RC churches than a disunity. And because this continuity is not what I would call a “conscious effort” on the part of these various churches to be saying/doing the same things, I would offer this unity is from the Holy Spirit. (Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit be working to draw believers together vs. separating them?)

My whole intention of the post (#560) was to point out why there are so many denominations, and also to point out that their differences often aren’t doctrinal ones, but rather petty ones.

Do I think it’s right for a church to divide over such petty issues? Absolutely not. It grieves me (and I believe the Father too) when we bicker over trivial matters (pews, carpet, etc.). But as I already stated, I still see G-d working to change the hearts and minds of His followers to conform us/them to His likeness, (tho’ I think this doesn’t happen quickly enough for some folks’ liking.)

blessings…

 

[Kay_Cee]

Paidion:

Glad to hear it. Thanks for posting.

 

[estesbob]

Let me put your wonderment to rest for you then…

…do bob and I disagree on doctrine?

No.

Do we disagree on the translation of a given scripture?

Possibly.

Do we have the same favorite football team or do we drive the same color/year/make car? Highly unlikely.

Being “one” does’nt mean relinquishing one’s identity and erasing what it is that makes them.

I’ll guarentee you right now that bob and I would tag team anybody who would discredit The Church.

See, we were told to be one in the matters of doctrine.

His disagreement with me is the emphasis and meaning of the scripture.

It’s not like we’re changing the words to suit our personal interpretations. We’re still both looking at the same words.

And if “this” exchange justifies Protestants, then you can go back to and blame the very Apostles who Christ chose for they too had discussions such as these, but I can pretty much guarentee you that neither I, nor bob will be running out any time soon to start our own church just because we interpret a scripture differently. He’s not going to abandon The Holy Eucharist nor I The Papacy "just’ because we are discussing Scripture.

We argue in the opposite direction that do Protestants who argue. We argue for the common union of The Church where’s Protestants who argue with us argue for the justification “of” The Church. Big diference.

Well said. If if we were Protestants one of us would stomp off to form our own denomination being we had disagreements about scripture .

 

[estesbob]

I am in 100% accordance with you and I’ve used those same verses to defend Mother Church.

The discussion here however is what our behaviour should be towards non-Catholic Christians.

Question: If we are to “love” our enemies, how much more should we love our brethren?

I can disagree with their dogma, but still love them…especially those that “don’t” protest His Church and there are NCC’s who don’t protest The Church, but who just aren’t members of it.

No one said we couldn’t love them. But you seem to contend that Christ revealed himself to them outside of the Church. Since Christ is the Church how can this be?

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

2nd Gen said:

Did the scripture state that the person working in Jesus’ name was teaching a different teaching? No.

Well, there is Galatians 1:6-9.

The pertinent sentence is: “As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!” (verse 9).

Robert

 

[estesbob]

What I couldn’t show through the emot-icons was “a tongue-in-cheek”. #560 wasn’t meant to be a serious reply… it was meant to illustrate that the differences in denomination are primarily minor issues - what color should the carpet be, what kind of music will be allowed during service…

There are basic truths of Christianity to which all who fall under the category “Christian” adhere. Both Catholics and non-RCs agree on many points of doctrine. Having lived in various places around the world I have seen more of a continuity of beliefs in non-RC churches than a disunity. And because this continuity is not what I would call a “conscious effort” on the part of these various churches to be saying/doing the same things, I would offer this unity is from the Holy Spirit. (Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit be working to draw believers together vs. separating them?)

My whole intention of the post (#560) was to point out why there are so many denominations, and also to point out that their differences often aren’t doctrinal ones, but rather petty ones.

Do I think it’s right for a church to divide over such petty issues? Absolutely not. It grieves me (and I believe the Father too) when we bicker over trivial matters (pews, carpet, etc.). But as I already stated, I still see G-d working to change the hearts and minds of His followers to conform us/them to His likeness, (tho’ I think this doesn’t happen quickly enough for some folks’ liking.)

blessings…

There are major doctrinal differences among the multitude of the Protestant denominations. Many of these concern how we obtain salvation. And all the denominations claim to be based on the same Scripture. You can not reconcile those denominations when one f,or instance, claims once saved always saved with those who believe salvation can be gained or lost. You cannot reconcile say the Lutherans with the Mormons or the Presbyterians with the Mennonites or the Jehovah’s Witnesses with the Seventh-day Adventists All these denominations can’t be right.

If there really were only minor differences there would not be nearly the number of Protestant denominations

 

[paidion]

There are major doctrinal differences among the multitude of the Protestant denominations. Many of these concern how we obtain salvation. And all the denominations claim to be based on the same Scripture. You can not reconcile those denominations when one f,or instance, claims once saved always saved with those who believe salvation can be gained or lost. You cannot reconcile say the Lutherans with the Mormons or the Presbyterians with the Mennonites or the Jehovah’s Witnesses with the Seventh-day Adventists All these denominations can’t be right.

I was NOT referring to non-Christian groups (Jehovah’s witnesses, Mormons, and possibly even 7th Day Adventists). I wouldn’t expect their doctrines to agree any more than I would expect Muslims and Christians or Reform Jews and Orthodox to agree.

Nor did I say that the various denominations agree on everything. Again, I refer to my own experience where many believers in Messiah do not concern him/herself with questions like: once saved/always saved, etc. They are used to thinking along those lines because they have grown up that way and are accustomed to that line of thinking. Not as many ppl (RC and non-RC) dip deep and study/wrestle with these concepts.

 

[estesbob]

I was NOT referring to non-Christian groups (Jehovah’s witnesses, Mormons, and possibly even 7th Day Adventists). I wouldn’t expect their doctrines to agree any more than I would expect Muslims and Christians or Reform Jews and Orthodox to agree.

All the groups above consider themselves Christian. Who are you decide who can can use that designation? And all the groups above use the same Scripture you do and come up with their own conflicting doctrines.

Nor did I say that the various denominations agree on everything. Again, I refer to my own experience where many believers in Messiah do not concern him/herself with questions like: once saved/always saved, etc. They are used to thinking along those lines because they have grown up that way and are accustomed to that line of thinking. Not as many ppl (RC and non-RC) dip deep and study/wrestle with these concepts.

Not only do they not agree on everything they have major disagreements on doctrines that are crucial to the eternal salvation of our souls. You don’t think that one who adheres to once saved always saved is not in trouble if that’s not true???

I agree that they are used to thinking that way because that is the way they have grown up which is why the Catholic Church acknowledges that those afflicted with “invincible ignorance” can be saved, although only through the Church.

Lest we get thrown onto a tangent being saved through the Church does not mean that one have to be a baptized, formal member of the Catholic Church

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen:

At the time Jesus was talking to John, there was, at the most, *one *

 

[paidion]

If there really were only minor differences there would not be nearly the number of Protestant denominations

I strongly disagree with you on this point. Many ppl have left churches or denominations because of very petty things. Splits have occurred over issues such as the color of the carpet all the way to what kind of music is played during the service (a little more significant issue).

There is a reason why G-d compares us (believers in Messiah) to sheep. Sheep are very willing to follow the one in front of them - even over the side of a cliff (!). So, yes, in the same way that sheep mindlessly follow each other, ppl do leave churches - and sometimes, (sadly) leave Christianity - because of the bickering amongst the flock.

Non-RC’s are not the only ones susceptible to these divisions. I personally know of some parishes in my area that are dealing with problems arising out of “have drums / don’t have drums” during the Mass. Folks have even left the congregations they’ve been long-time members of over this one issue.

 

[2ndGen]

It also doesn’t say he belonged to a different church.