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NotWorthy
Guest
Well, I guess there’s little question on whether the good King Henry VIII (?) was divinely appointed to start the Church of England, eh?
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trustinyou
Guest
Well, I guess there’s little question on whether the good King Henry VIII (?) was divinely appointed to start the Church of England, eh?/QUOT
actually,and i could be mistaken,but i believe in a bible study i heard it was the good kings son who kicked The Church out. How about that Tony Blair! I’m going to make a bold statement here…“athough we are all born into this mess satan has caused,it is not only a spiritual,but also and intelluctual move when one comes back to the catholic church” i have my reasons for saying this,and one is the writings of our early church fathers.Clement,Iganatius,Justin,Ireanus.etc,etc…
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NotWorthy
Guest
Yes, Tony Blair rocks! There’s been some rumors that GW over here may convert after his Presidency - his brother Jeb’s Catholic, I believe. But they may just be rumors.
It **is **intellectual, but the “spark” that ignites the conversion still comes from the Holy Spirit. You can see it in so many Catholics that leave the Church. They often (not all of them, mind you, but in my neck of the woods, a vast majority of them) simply are ignorant of the Church’s teaching. Yes, the fault is the Church’s as well as theirs, but the ignorant are usually the ones that left.
And then you see the great minds that are returning to the Church and his fills my heart with joy!
I
inthecloud
Guest
So I guess you also believe in the Septuagint OT canon and the Real Presence too.
J
Joel_Tunnah
Guest
Anglicans and their US counterparts do believe in the Real Presence; and the King James and Geneva bibles both contained the entire deuterocanon. FYI.
Attacking protestants is counterproductive. We are Christians, not followers of an “ism”. Too many Catholics (at least on this website) seem more concerned with being Catholic, than with being Christians.
There was a recent thread about “should I confront the people in my parish who aren’t Catholic enough?” This type of thing is beyond ignorant.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
You can word it any way you like. Truth is that any doctrine that cannot be supported by Scripture is a false doctrine.
The early church fathers believed this and wrote about it. It was only after the Roman Empire took over the Christian Church that the paganistic rites, practices, etc. started showing up in the Church. The early Catholic Church was the true church of God and remnants still remain today but not any connected with the Roman Catholic Church. That is a different church than Christ’s Church.
It was the Romans who martyred most all the early Christian Fathers and then in the 4th century declared the Christian Church the Church of Rome and initiated all the paganistic rituals we see today in the RCC. The worship of the dead, adoration of idols, worship of Mary, purgatory, penance, etc. and all the other paganistic rituals that are not Scriptural.
Reading the writings of the early church fathers will show you how they fought the Romans when they started papal control of the church. Unfortunately the Romans won and you see what we have today…
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rlg94086
Guest
Why the emphasis on Catholicism specifically? Exhibit A.
Thank you Old Scholar for demonstrating the importance of Catholic Answers efforts.
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trustinyou
Guest
Reading the writings of the early church fathers will show you how they fought the Romans when they started papal control of the church. Unfortunately the Romans won and you see what we have today… catholicculture.org/library/fathers/ Where do you get your history lessons from? heres a couple of links to the early church fathers writings
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
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trustinyou
Guest
**wasnt it constantine that took over rome and let christanity blossom. ? due to his mother being a devout christian.From what I saw on a history special,she even went to jerusalem and found the cross of Christ… left one piece there at a church she had built,and brought the rest back to rome and had more Holy,Catholic and Apostalic churches built… **
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NotWorthy
Guest
Old Scholar, dear Constantine did NOT make the Catholic Church the Church of Rome. He simply legalized it among the myriad other churches that existed at the time. Please be more careful of your facts.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Let’s look at the early chuch - circa 150ad.
Now, how much does your Christian Service resemble this?
N
NotWorthy
Guest
And if any of my Catholic Brothers or Sisters’ hearts don’t sing when they hear this, they aren’t paying attention to the Mass today.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
trustinyou
**You asked me what is the truth. I will attempt to tell you my opinion of the truth.
I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. I believe God gave it to us so that we may know what He has taught and to give us the message in such a manner as we can prove what we believe. I believe that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness and that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. We are told that by Scripture and I can’t imagine how a Christian could disagree with it.
I believe that when Christ established His Church on earth, through the apostles, it was given to direct and guide us to the truth through the Holy Scriptures. While it is true the Gospel and message of Christ was initially given orally, the apostles and writers of the New Testament were instructed to write it down so that we would have the authority of Christ in order to deny heretics and false doctrines and beliefs. The 27 books of the New Testament were the same in 100 A.D. as they are today. Incidentally when the term Catholic Church was used, it was used to indicate the “universal” Church of God.
Irenæus, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Clement, Tertullian and other early church leaders all taught only the Scriptures from the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New Testament. It is true the Church did not officially recognize the 27 books until the second century but they were in use by all the churches well before they were considered canon.
Irenæus, Tertullian and Augustine wrote and defended the faith from heretics. If you will read their writings, you will see that when confronting heretics, they appealed only to Scripture and not to anything that was not written.** In “Against Heresies” Irenæus said:
"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."
Tertullian thought that Scripture was the only means available for refuting or validating a doctrine as regards its content. Irenæus thought that the belief that there could be some truth transmitted exclusively viva voce (orally) was a **Gnostic line of thought. He always turned to Scripture for proof of the truth of a doctrine because the truth of the apostles is objectively within Scripture. ** Proof from tradition and Scripture serve one and the same end: To identify the teaching of the Church as the original apostolic teaching and what this teaching is. The Bible was the ultimate authority for the Church of the Early Church. It was materially sufficient and the final arbiter in all matters of doctrinal truth.
Heresy grew so fast that in the 4th century, Constantine, the Roman Emperor, called over 1800 bishops of the church to the Council of Nicæa. Arianism became so large that it needed confronting officially, and Constantine wanted to settle some other matters. Only about 300 bishops showed up as the church did not want any connection with the Roman Government. After all it was the Romans who had their pagan churches and were crucifying Christians, feeding them to the lions, and burning them at the stake.
Not too long after that, Constantine declared Christianity the official religion of Rome, even though the Roman government had been a paganistic government and Constantine even then forbade every thing which might look like an encroachment of Christianity upon Paganism. He was not a Christian himself and only was baptized when he felt death close upon him, and he had accepted Arianism and it was an Arian priest who baptized him. He kept pagans in the highest positions and eventually introduced many pagan rituals, rites and doctrines into Christianity. Many still are there today in the Roman Catholic Church.
If you will look at and read the history of the early church, you will see that it was the Romans who departed from the original Christian Church and formed a paganistic Christianity. Look at how the doctrines without Scriptural support have derived from this. Look for Scriptural proof of all the dogmas and doctrines of the RCC and see which ones are true.
To reach my personal stage of truth, I consider experience, emotions, general revelation, tradition, reason and then Scripture. If it leads to Scripture and is supported, then it is true. That is why God gave us the Bible, and He tells us it is sufficient for everything we need. Why should we depart from it?
**You asked me what is the truth. I will attempt to tell you my opinion of the truth.
I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. I believe God gave it to us so that we may know what He has taught and to give us the message in such a manner as we can prove what we believe. I believe that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness and that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. We are told that by Scripture and I can’t imagine how a Christian could disagree with it.
I believe that when Christ established His Church on earth, through the apostles, it was given to direct and guide us to the truth through the Holy Scriptures. While it is true the Gospel and message of Christ was initially given orally, the apostles and writers of the New Testament were instructed to write it down so that we would have the authority of Christ in order to deny heretics and false doctrines and beliefs. The 27 books of the New Testament were the same in 100 A.D. as they are today. Incidentally when the term Catholic Church was used, it was used to indicate the “universal” Church of God.
Irenæus, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Clement, Tertullian and other early church leaders all taught only the Scriptures from the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New Testament. It is true the Church did not officially recognize the 27 books until the second century but they were in use by all the churches well before they were considered canon.
Irenæus, Tertullian and Augustine wrote and defended the faith from heretics. If you will read their writings, you will see that when confronting heretics, they appealed only to Scripture and not to anything that was not written.** In “Against Heresies” Irenæus said:
"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."
Tertullian thought that Scripture was the only means available for refuting or validating a doctrine as regards its content. Irenæus thought that the belief that there could be some truth transmitted exclusively viva voce (orally) was a **Gnostic line of thought. He always turned to Scripture for proof of the truth of a doctrine because the truth of the apostles is objectively within Scripture. ** Proof from tradition and Scripture serve one and the same end: To identify the teaching of the Church as the original apostolic teaching and what this teaching is. The Bible was the ultimate authority for the Church of the Early Church. It was materially sufficient and the final arbiter in all matters of doctrinal truth.
Heresy grew so fast that in the 4th century, Constantine, the Roman Emperor, called over 1800 bishops of the church to the Council of Nicæa. Arianism became so large that it needed confronting officially, and Constantine wanted to settle some other matters. Only about 300 bishops showed up as the church did not want any connection with the Roman Government. After all it was the Romans who had their pagan churches and were crucifying Christians, feeding them to the lions, and burning them at the stake.
Not too long after that, Constantine declared Christianity the official religion of Rome, even though the Roman government had been a paganistic government and Constantine even then forbade every thing which might look like an encroachment of Christianity upon Paganism. He was not a Christian himself and only was baptized when he felt death close upon him, and he had accepted Arianism and it was an Arian priest who baptized him. He kept pagans in the highest positions and eventually introduced many pagan rituals, rites and doctrines into Christianity. Many still are there today in the Roman Catholic Church.
If you will look at and read the history of the early church, you will see that it was the Romans who departed from the original Christian Church and formed a paganistic Christianity. Look at how the doctrines without Scriptural support have derived from this. Look for Scriptural proof of all the dogmas and doctrines of the RCC and see which ones are true.
To reach my personal stage of truth, I consider experience, emotions, general revelation, tradition, reason and then Scripture. If it leads to Scripture and is supported, then it is true. That is why God gave us the Bible, and He tells us it is sufficient for everything we need. Why should we depart from it?
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
notworthy said:
God said His Church would last forever and so would His word. That’s why He gave us the Bible, as an authority to deal with false doctrines and heresies. There is no need for anything else. The Church is to use the Bible to deal with anything false and to confirm that which is true. It is not the purpose of the Church to create false doctrines and principles that cannot be found in Scripture. This is no doubt done only to satisfy someone’s ego, and not for spiritual reasons.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
***Sounds very familiar. Reading and preaching from Scripture and then communion. Lots of prayer but songs as well.
I thoroughly believe in the presence of God during the communion. However we do not drink His blood or eat His flesh. Neither did the apostles present at the Last Supper when Christ initiated this communion. Christ said to do what they did as often as we can in remembrance of Him. No one ate His flesh or drank His blood. Scripture teaches that drinking blood is wrong. Christ said the wine is for the New Testament written in His blood and the bread represents His flesh.***
L
lak611
Guest
Where do you think the Bible came from? This free MP3 gives a good explanation.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
***I listened to your audio. Nothing new.
The Bible was written by men who was with Jesus and witnessed His teachings, life, death and resurrection. None Else(or I should say the New Testament—we all know the Jews gave us the Old Testament.).
The New Testament was fully completed before 100 A.D. and nothing in it was written later than that date.
The church did not give us the Bible; men were inspired by God to write the Scriptures. The church only made official what had been preached for hundreds of years.***
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NotWorthy
Guest
Of the 100+ books that were considered by the Church for canonization, the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit to determine that 27 were inspired. 27 out of 110!!!
What made them pick the 27? The fact that these books agreed 100% with Catholic Doctrine was one of the proof texts for determining Divine Inspiration.
You see, OldScholar, Catholic Doctrine was not determined by the books of the New Testament - the New Testament was determined by Catholic Doctrine!!!
R
rlg94086
Guest
Hi Quenched,
By now, I hope you have found the answer to your question. Catholics are on constant attack by people like Old Scholar. We lose some Catholics who don’t know their faith well, to the lies and distortions of many Protestants. That is why Catholic Answers exists. Here is their mission statement:
catholic.com/home/about.asp
So, that is why there is emphasis on Catholicism specifically. If you look around the forum, we do discuss Christianity/Catholicism with people of non-Christian faiths and atheists, but the primary purpose is to bring everyone to the “fullness of the faith.”
I am happy that you are willing to worship side-by-side with us as fellow Christians. Many Protestants don’t feel the same way.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
This is a very accurate statement!!! The Church had preached Catholic Doctrine for 100’s of years, and then made the Scriptures official in accordance with those teachings.
So, OS, what are you missing there, buddy?
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