Why so much oppostion to the "L" word (latin)

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TrentCath said:
I did explain this above.
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nice evasion.

I feel sorry for the Latin that it only has extremists to care for it. After all, Ive continually proclaimed “I like Latin” and have only been attacked as if Im not “one of them” the “you” that make up its adherents.

perhaps if you took more care to observe and discern where people are coming from rather than knock them.

ive continually said, God crowns his own gifts, not one agreement. only a defensive position, so I mentioned it was defensive and again, was responded to by more defensiveness.

im here. why arent you trying to demonstrate its good points rather than just closing ranks against someone who might be as catholic as you are.

the paish priest and assistant in the OP are real catholics. what do you have to gain by making them look bad, or nasty, or worst yet, heretical and not part of the “real” people of God.
 
christosdavid said:
nice evasion.

I feel sorry for the Latin that it only has extremists to care for it. After all, Ive continually proclaimed “I like Latin” and have only been attacked as if Im not “one of them” the “you” that make up its adherents. See below

perhaps if you took more care to observe and discern where people are coming from rather than knock them. We haven’t been knocking you, at least I havent

ive continually said, God crowns his own gifts, not one agreement. only a defensive position, so I mentioned it was defensive and again, was responded to by more defensiveness.

im here. why arent you trying to demonstrate its good points rather than just closing ranks against someone who might be as catholic as you are.

the paish priest and assistant in the OP are real catholics. what do you have to gain by making them look bad, or nasty, or worst yet, heretical and not part of the “real” people of God. **No ones said that so to quote your own words ‘perhaps if you took more care to observe and discern where people are coming from rather than knock them’ **
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I guess this is why there is opposition, the CC doesnt want to go back to this dancing around as if its not good enough when its all God’s gracious activity.

The OP’s priest and assistant can hardly be described as knocking the Latin anyway, only surpuses and altar rails.

If you want to return to something, you have to give an argument why, not simply assume that everyone who is different is somehow less spiritual because the attend an OF of the mass.

The OF because the entirity of the Catholic Church attends it ordinarily 👍
 
KaneKatholic said:
why so much opposition to the “L” word?
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In one way, this is a “double edged sword” appearing as a single direction question. Just as one can ask “why the opposition to the ‘L’ word,” it can also be asked “why so much opposition to the ‘E’ word?” (English). This is not a “calling out,” just an observation.

For me personally, I have no opposition to the EF form as such. I personally believe that the EF should be preserved and celebrated. I also openly state that my basis of not going to the EF is to say “it’s not for me.” (Yes, I have attended an EF Eucharist.)

My reason for not preferring the EF is the fact that I don’t know Latin. Yes, I know there a missals which present the service in English. However, for me this would make one a distraction from the other. It would feel to much like I am in Latin class and not adoration of our Lord. I need to hear the prayers said in a language I know well so I can say “Amen” to the blessing.
 
christosdavid said:
If you want to return to something, you have to give an argument why, not simply assume that everyone who is different is somehow less spiritual because the attend an OF of the mass.
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Here are my argument from my original post, in simplified form. I’m sure many of the posters could give more.

And just so it’s clear I’m for “the Reform” (i.e. this coming Advent) but wouldn’t be opposed to “the Return”. Could you address any of these?
  1. The ICEL translations (equivalency was used, not translation)
  2. The changes in GIRM
  3. The de-emphasis of the BVM, Communion of Saints and removal of the Leonine Prayers
 
Revert_43 said:
Here are my argument from my original post, in simplified form. I’m sure many of the posters could give more.

And just so it’s clear I’m for “the Reform” (i.e. this coming Advent) but wouldn’t be opposed to “the Return”. Could you address any of these?
  1. The ICEL translations (equivalency was used, not translation)
  2. The changes in GIRM
  3. The de-emphasis of the BVM, Communion of Saints and removal of the Leonine Prayers
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all translation works on a range of equivelancy, its irrational to think that the most literal is the most correct.

I haapen to agree that “and with your spirit” is more literal, whether it includes the concepts in our modern connotations of what the distinctions of spirit and soul/body is not so certain. A previous poster noted that “and also with you” included the whole person, what the greeks called the hegemonikon. the pronoun I in I have hurt myself when refering to a part of their physical body.

As for de-emphasis. That may only be you interpretation. But if there is it is likely due to a lack of understanding and catechesis on that topic.

The catholic church exists in more than one diocese, so to ge tsomething in print that is so comprehensive is a miracle in itself.

There may not be an overephasis in your parish on the BVM but I happened to see a previous thread that had Mary as the door, based on a quote from St. Benedict. Without real and lasting catechesis this is not helpful for some lay people, especially from a European background. Jesus is rightly called the door in the Gospels.

The CC already has an emphasis on Mary, there couldnt be a significant de-emphasis that would take away what was prophisied in Luke’s Gospel, “that all generations shall call me blesed”

your thoughts?
 
christosdavid said:
I’m refering to the question where people have become less spiritual and therefore the Latin is not used.

Perhaps its a difference of interpretation. would you care to enlighten me?
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I’m getting ready for work, but I’ll get back at you later. 😃
 
christosdavid said:
As for de-emphasis. That may only be you interpretation. But if there is it is likely due to a lack of understanding and catechesis on that topic.

The catholic church exists in more than one diocese, so to ge tsomething in print that is so comprehensive is a miracle in itself.

The CC already has an emphasis on Mary, there couldnt be a significant de-emphasis that would take away what was prophisied in Luke’s Gospel, “that all generations shall call me blesed”

your thoughts?
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The de-emphasis of the BVM and the Communion of Saints is not my interpretation.

The Mass does not change from diocese to diocese or country to country to that matter. I have attended the OF form of the Mass in English in India and it was the same as the Mass I attend down the street each Sunday.

Here’s one example of de-emphasis and changes, The Confetior

Much of this info was taken from the following link
oocities.org/woodenleg_10/prayer/act/Confetior.html

The Confetior is the commual confession of sin during the Mass. As with the Sign of the Cross there are also gestures (now forgotten) to the prayer. At “my fault” you are to beat your breast. At the finale part you make a sign of the cross; touch on “pardon”, “absolution”, “remission”, and “sins”. And this pary part for group prayer.
  • Pre VII
    I confess to almighty God,
    to Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
    Blessed Michael the Archangel,
    Blessed John the Baptist,
    the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul,
    and to all the Saints,
    that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed,
    through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.
    Therefore I beseech Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
    Blessed Michael the Archangel,
    Blessed John the Baptist,
    the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul,
    and all the saints to pray to the Lord our God for me.
  • Post VII
    I confess to almighty God,
    and to you, my brothers and sisters,
    that I have sinned through my own fault,
    in my thoughts and in my words,
    in what I have done,
    and in what I have failed to do;
    and I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
    all the angels and saints,
    and you, my brothers and sisters,
    to pray for me to the Lord our God.
  • Revised Translation (Advent 2011)
    I confess to almighty God
    and to you, my brothers and sisters,
    that I have greatly sinned
    in my thoughts and in my words,
    in what I have done
    and in what I have failed to do,
    through my fault,
    through my fault,
    through my most grievous fault;
    therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
    all the Angels and Saints,
    and you, my brothers and sisters,
    to pray for me to the Lord our God
The prayers have changed, the gestures during the prayers have changed, the GIRM has changed. That’s why many traditional folks feel the EF form of the Mass is more reverent.

Catholicism is based on Scripture and Tradition, the changes to the OF from the EF have to do with the removal of many of those traditions. Some of the literary changes and gestures will corrected and reintroduced this Advent.
 
Revert_43 said:
The de-emphasis of the BVM and the Communion of Saints is not my interpretation.

The Mass does not change from diocese to diocese or country to country to that matter. I have attended the OF form of the Mass in English in India and it was the same as the Mass I attend down the street each Sunday.

Here’s one example of de-emphasis and changes, The Confetior

Much of this info was taken from the following link
oocities.org/woodenleg_10/prayer/act/Confetior.html

The Confetior is the commual confession of sin during the Mass. As with the Sign of the Cross there are also gestures (now forgotten) to the prayer. At “my fault” you are to beat your breast. At the finale part you make a sign of the cross; touch on “pardon”, “absolution”, “remission”, and “sins”. And this pary part for group prayer.
  • Pre VII
    I confess to almighty God,
    to Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
    Blessed Michael the Archangel,
    Blessed John the Baptist,
    the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul,
    and to all the Saints,
    that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed,
    through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.
    Therefore I beseech Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
    Blessed Michael the Archangel,
    Blessed John the Baptist,
    the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul,
    and all the saints to pray to the Lord our God for me.
  • Post VII
    I confess to almighty God,
    and to you, my brothers and sisters,
    that I have sinned through my own fault,
    in my thoughts and in my words,
    in what I have done,
    and in what I have failed to do;
    and I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
    all the angels and saints,
    and you, my brothers and sisters,
    to pray for me to the Lord our God.
  • Revised Translation (Advent 2011)
    I confess to almighty God
    and to you, my brothers and sisters,
    that I have greatly sinned
    in my thoughts and in my words,
    in what I have done
    and in what I have failed to do,
    through my fault,
    through my fault,
    through my most grievous fault;
    therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
    all the Angels and Saints,
    and you, my brothers and sisters,
    to pray for me to the Lord our God
The prayers have changed, the gestures during the prayers have changed, the GIRM has changed. That’s why many traditional folks feel the EF form of the Mass is more reverent.

Catholicism is based on Scripture and Tradition, the changes to the OF from the EF have to do with the removal of many of those traditions. Some of the literary changes and gestures will corrected and reintroduced this Advent.
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didnt I say that the Mass was the same world wide and not changed from dioceses?

anyway,

sure, its different, but at the end of the example given it has

therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,

which demonstrates that the church is not in doctrine de-emphasising Mary or the other saints.

Its this kind of compariaon which leaves me bewildered. calm down, Mary’s still there, we’re still praying for her and the saints intercession.

I personally dont feel reverence needs extra words. I have no real drama with the reform here. you are always welcome to say a few decades of the rosary to catch up if you think Mary wont answer the prayer that is asked.
 
It would still be the same in Latin, I just checked, it has

Confiteor Deo omnipotens et vobis, fratres,
quia peccavi nimis
cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione:
mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Ideo precor beatam Mariam semper Virginem,
omnes Angelos et Sanctos,
et vos, fratres, orare pro me
ad Dominum Deum nostrum.
 
christosdavid said:
didnt I say that the Mass was the same world wide and not changed from dioceses?

anyway,

sure, its different, but at the end of the example given it has

therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,

which demonstrates that the church is not in doctrine de-emphasising Mary or the other saints.

Its this kind of compariaon which leaves me bewildered. calm down, Mary’s still there, we’re still praying for her and the saints intercession.

I personally dont feel reverence needs extra words. I have no real drama with the reform here. you are always welcome to say a few decades of the rosary to catch up if you think Mary wont answer the prayer that is asked.
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First, I am calm. 👍

As I said in the post that was one example, there are many in the Liturgy of Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist, Liturgy of Hours and others. Are you familiar with any of these? And I don’t mean that as a sarcastic remark, I’m serious.
 
christosdavid said:
It would still be the same in Latin, I just checked, it has

Confiteor Deo omnipotens et vobis, fratres,
quia peccavi nimis
cogitatione, verbo, opere et omissione:
mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Ideo precor beatam Mariam semper Virginem,
omnes Angelos et Sanctos,
et vos, fratres, orare pro me
ad Dominum Deum nostrum.
Click to expand...
The same as what? My post presented Pre-V II, Post V-II and Revised? Are yo saying the Latin is the same in a three translations?
 
One quibble, Latin is not exclusive to the EF Mass. I have been to a Latin OF Mass. Latin is in fact still the “official” language of the OF Mass. All translations in the vernacular originate from the Editio Typica which is in Latin.

The difference between the EF and OF language-wise, is that it is licit to say the OF in the vernacular or Latin, the EF is Latin-only.
 
Revert_43 said:
The same as what? My post presented Pre-V II, Post V-II and Revised? Are yo saying the Latin is the same in a three translations?
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no, the latin is a post VII NO Mass. sorry, maybe you have a different question than the OP who was concerned with latin. Where even if you go back to latin, it wont be the 1962 latin version.

The latin OF as it stands now, in the CC has the latin I posted above.

The reform I think is closer as it contains the mea culpa bit which had been left out by the ICEL.
 
Revert_43 said:
The new translation is a welcome change this Advent.
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But will it stop the ongoing corruption of the English language, especially among the illiterates, as there will be fewer and fewer NATIVE English speakers per projections?
 
christosdavid said:
no, the latin is a post VII NO Mass. sorry, maybe you have a different question than the OP who was concerned with latin. Where even if you go back to latin, it wont be the 1962 latin version.

The latin OF as it stands now, in the CC has the latin I posted above.

The reform I think is closer as it contains the mea culpa bit which had been left out by the ICEL.
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Yes thank you! But that’s one of my points. All these little things , the stuff ICEL left out in the translation, the changes to the GIRM, the changes in the Lectionary, the de-emphasis on traditional Catholic things all add up. And because of the summation of these things people the the EF is more reverent.

This article is a good summary

adoremus.org/0496LiturgicalReform.html

Also, as OraLabora, pointed out the OF can be celebrated in Latin, that certainly helps people that feel that the OF breaks with tradition.

My point is that Catholicism is Scripture and Tradition and the EF preserves much of the Tradition that has been lost which is why there is this rift. Using Latin is the most obvious part of the the Traditions lost, but Latin is only one of a number of Catholic Traditions that have been lost in moving from the EF to the OF.
 
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