Why Sola Scriptura fails

[Tomster]

If it is as you describe it, I’m happy this works for you. Our method does have it’s merits as well - we’re a bit open to ministering to each other, and we tend to not suffer for long leaders that engage in persistent sin. Perhaps we’re still reacting to the example of Leo X.

In our school for example, after the children sing Gospel songs, all the children put their hands in the orans position and give their parents a blessing from the dais.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make His face shine on you and be gracious to you.
May the Lord look upon you with favor and give you peace.

I don’t think this is appropriate under Catholic understanding, but frankly, I have never felt as blessed at that time when these children of immigrants (our school is 95% minority) gave a blessing to us parents.

Great two-step Ben. But if I wanted to dance I would have asked my wife.

 

[benjohnson]

Ben,

My point was to simply say that the words “Correct Teaching” are not correct …neither through scripture, Tradition or tradition unless you start with the year 1930. Birth control in all forms is immoral, barrier included. I’m sensitive here on two accounts:

1. I lost my sister in law…LCMS…who I dearly loved and I believe it was because she took the pill…the cancer was hormone induced.
2. I have a couple of other LCMS friends who do not understand that using the pill is an abortifacient and they believe the barrier methods are OK.

While we have much in common, LCMS church leadership is not taking the stand that they ought to on both regards. Barrier methods are OK …and the Pill is OK. This breaks from Scripture, Tradition and Luther.

I’m done…made my point. Please take my words with charity and love. If there is something I don’t understand, I’m open to teaching and correction. Oh Jon…

Thanks Porknpie! Your love and charity is strong, and feel free to remind those that are LCMS that ‘the pill’ is not only medically unsound, but against LCMS teaching.

I’m especially sorry for the double loss of your sister in law. It’s especially tragic.

I know Lutherans can sometimes be too pragmatic in our teaching. In such important things, it’s better to have high standards to live up to. I see our leadership becoming more comfortable with the idea of a smaller yet more ‘correct’ church, knowing that there are other avenues for those that are not willing to to conform to God’s desire for all of us. I’ve talked with several people who are life-long in the church, and we’re becoming more life-afirming with every year.

Feel free to keep shouting at us Lutherans, perhaps you’ll talk sense into us.

 

[Porknpie]

Thanks Porknpie! Your love and charity is strong, and feel free to remind those that are LCMS that ‘the pill’ is not only medically unsound, but against LCMS teaching.

I’m especially sorry for the double loss of your sister in law. It’s especially tragic.

I know Lutherans can sometimes be too pragmatic in our teaching. In such important things, it’s better to have high standards to live up to. I see our leadership becoming more comfortable with the idea of a smaller yet more ‘correct’ church, knowing that there are other avenues for those that are not willing to to conform to God’s desire for all of us. I’ve talked with several people who are life-long in the church, and we’re becoming more life-afirming with every year.

Feel free to keep shouting at us Lutherans, perhaps you’ll talk sense into us.

Ben, …show me where LCMS teaches that the pill is against LCMS teaching… I’d like to have a copy of that to show my friend.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

If Tradition is tested by Scriptures then what determines Scriptures?

We must admit into the Canon: The Shepherd of Hermas, Didache, Barnabas, Epistles of Clement, Epistles of Ignatius, Polycarp, Diognetus, et. al.

Anything that claims to be Scriptures must be admitted as Scriptures because everything is subject to it.

 

[JonNC]

=KEP1983;10713965]The quotes I posted from the early Church clearly showed that the Bishop of Rome had primacy. Ignore it or fight it all you like, but it remains true.

Ben quite well responded to the primacy question.

And I specifically picked out quotes from BEFORE Constantine, since you claimed that’s when the “Imperial Church” ruined everything and gave us the “Catholic” church.

I am at a loss as to find where I’ve even implied this. Why would a communion, or one of its members, who claims acceptance of the 7 early councils make this ridiculous claim?
And it is a ridiculous claim, indeed!

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=KEP1983;10713961]Who says we have to follow the Formula of Concord? Is it infallible? Who gets to determine that the Formula of Concord is correct? Why should I even accept Lutheranism over Calvinism, Arminianism, Methodism, Presybeterianism, Anglicanism, Unitarianism, or any other version of Protestantismismism? Why should your Formula of Concord be authoritative and not a different Protestant Confession?

I think I already mentioned you don’t have to. You should accept the teachings of the Catholic Church as you are a Catholic. On the same grounds, I don’t accept any of these other communions because I am Lutheran.

And if another Lutheran disagrees with you on your interpretation of the Formula of Concord, who is correct?

For this Lutheran, the Missouri Synod. Has this Lutheran pastor friend of your registered with CAF yet?

You don’t accept Calvin because they aren’t Lutheran? You’re begging the question. Why should I accept your brand of Lutheranism as objectively true? There are many many other Lutheran confessions who disagree with your views.

Not begging the question, answering it. I’m yet to find a Lutheran who accepts papal supremacy, and your Lutheran pastor friend, put to this point in the thread, has yet to respond to my understanding.

The difference between Rome and Orthodoxy is completely different than the differences between the 20,000 different Protestant sects. The EO Schism was mostly a political one, and our theology is practically the same. The same can’t be said of Protestantism.

Purgatory, the Filioque, the IC, papal supremacy are political? And they would say it is your Schism, btw. Protestantism is not now, nor ever has been a communion. The “20,000 sects” (I’ve heard 30,000, 33,000, 40,000, and other numbers) are different communions. What they teach is up to them.

First off, we don’t claim human beings are infallible. We claim that God protects the Church from falling into heresy, so lay people like you and me don’t have to wander around in confusion trying to figure out if the Belgic Confession or the Formula of Concord are correct-- let alone the myriad of other Protestant confessions.

I’m sorry, I must misunderstand “infallible ex cathedra”. I’m not confused at all. I accept the Book of Concord as a right reflection of scripture.

But as you admitted, you have no way of knowing who is right. Maybe it’s Mormonism or Jehovahs Witnesses? Maybe it’s Presbyterians? Or Evangelicals? Or Episcopalians? Or Unitarians? We can’t be sure, because humans are fallible, and we can’t be sure who’s interpretation is the correct one revealed by the Holy Spirit and whos is not.

Site a qute please, where I said we have no way of knowing.

Which is exactly why Christ founded One Church and gave it His Holy Spirit and protected it from error.

Which one, KEP? Antioch? Rome? Without a unified Church, how are we to know which of these is right?

If Protestantism is true, you ultimately end up with a weak God who is unable to protect His Church from falling into widespread error; with people walking through life unable to discover what’s objectively true and what’s not, whos interpretation of scripture is from the Holy Spirit and whos is not.

His Church is protected by the Spirit. Why would you think otherwise? I know for certain that the Church Triumphant knows for sure. And it is there, freed from human sin, that the gates of Hell will never prevail. Here, the Spirit works to bring unity, in spite of human sin.
He works in the CC, the EO, in Lutheranism, and in others as well.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=PRmerger;10714544]The Catholic Church, clearly.

I am not surprised that you would say this, PR. And I completely respect your perspective, as you know, while others may not.

What other definitions are there regarding the primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

See what the EO says about it, as an example.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=joe370;10714783]Hey Jon. I voted for Obama

And I love you anyway, Joe.

because I truly believe, regarding republican candidates, that abortion is nothing more than a talking point i.e. they have no intended resolve, desire or zeal to back up their promises about abortion.

And, sadly, some who do had foot-in-mouth last cycle. Parenthetically, one must wonder why they would, when they see good Christians voting for pro-abortion candidates, Catholic, Lutheran, and otherwise.

For example, former president Bush Jr. had 8 years to suggest some sort of legislation that would change the laws on abortion and he did nothing. However, his respective campaigns were certainly all about that issue to appeal to Christian communities, no doubt. My point is: either way nothing was going to get done, and Obama was certainly the better candidate, as far as I am concerned (could be wrong) in terms of helping so many poor and disenfranchised folks in dire need of help, which is suppose to be the Christian way. Don’t get me started on Romney…LOL…

Comparatively, “W” never tried to require the CC to pay for abortions through a health care mandate.

The only way the great schism will get resolved, in my humble opinion, is if either church admits to their doctrinal errors (very few differences) and re-establishes themselves with the other church e.g. the CC admitting that Jesus’ church was not built on Kepha. Gosh, I would be so sad if that ever happened, but that’s just me.

You know me, Joe, I pray for it to happen, regardless of how, relying on the Spirit.

Anyway, how the heck are you doing??? I hope all is going well…

Good. thanks, Joe. I am having knee replacement in June (both knees ) so ask me in about 5 weeks.

Joe, a question. have you ever gotten the opinion that I thought the CC was the result of ruined Christianity, caused by Constantine? :whacky:

Jon

 

[benjohnson]

Ben, …show me where LCMS teaches that the pill is against LCMS teaching… I’d like to have a copy of that to show my friend.

Here’s it is: google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lcms.org%2FDocument.fdoc%3Fsrc%3Dlcm%26id%3D551&ei=zWeJUcbHPMjxigLZx4DQCA&usg=AFQjCNFwZwTqvMmCjp_M5V08YZ0_LzmgOA&bvm=bv.46226182,d.cGE

It’s a bit lengthy and not as clear as it should be but the logic is that the pill could have a bad effect on a child in the womb.

 

[joe370]

JonNC;10718003]And I love you anyway, Joe.

LOL…To be honest, I never talk politics…It’s an emotionally-charged topic that can lead to hostility, at least in my family. Plus, I prefer to leave it to the experts. I am not that knowledgeable, therefore I tend to lie low.

And, sadly, some who do had foot-in-mouth last cycle. Parenthetically, one must wonder why they would, when they see good Christians voting for pro-abortion candidates, Catholic, Lutheran, and otherwise.

God point. Man, I hate abortion. Makes feel terribly sad…

Comparatively, “W” never tried to require the CC to pay for abortions through a health care mandate.

Another good point. Did president Obama mandate paid abortions?

You know me, Joe, I pray for it to happen, regardless of how, relying on the Spirit.

Amen brother.

Good. thanks, Joe. I am having knee replacement in June (both knees ) so ask me in about 5 weeks.

Oh man, I am so sorry to hear that!!! I will, with out doubt, keep you in my daily prayers Jon. Please let me know how it went, once you are feeling better!

Joe, a question. have you ever gotten the opinion that I thought the CC was the result of ruined Christianity, caused by Constantine? :whacky:

Jon

Heck no!!! Why would you ask that? If you don’t mind me asking: what happened to your knees?

 

[Porknpie]

Here’s it is: google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lcms.org%2FDocument.fdoc%3Fsrc%3Dlcm%26id%3D551&ei=zWeJUcbHPMjxigLZx4DQCA&usg=AFQjCNFwZwTqvMmCjp_M5V08YZ0_LzmgOA&bvm=bv.46226182,d.cGE

It’s a bit lengthy and not as clear as it should be but the logic is that the pill could have a bad effect on a child in the womb.

Ben, the link references a 9 page document that included abortion but not contraception…we have unity on abortion.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Good. thanks, Joe. I am having knee replacement in June (both knees ) so ask me in about 5 weeks.
Jon

Ouch. Praying for the doctors to be led by our Healer and for a fast and peaceful recovery!

My Dad had one of his knees replaced about 7 years ago (He’s 66 now), best thing he’s done. He is free to walk a lot more and enjoy swimming at the beach (He lives practically on it). Speaking of which I need to go and stay with him for a week or so, good for the soul (He has really good rum too )

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Heck no!!! Why would you ask that? If you don’t mind me asking: what happened to your knees?

Age :takeoff:

 

[GKCSimulator]

Ben, the link references a 9 page document that included abortion but not contraception…we have unity on abortion.

The document really isn’t clear - you have to draw the prohibition from inference. Sadly, there’s no clear sentences that says “don’t take the pill.”

The document says that a child is created at conception. It then goes on to say that methods of contraception that cause harm to children are to be avoided, and then separately it says that the pill can cause harm. Therefore: Don’t take the pill.

Thankfully, as I understand it, there’s a few less people in the LCMS that are against stern statements recently, so we’ll probably have better teaching documents in a few short years.

 

[JonNC]

Age :takeoff:

Yes, and sports officiating.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

LOL…To be honest, I never talk politics…It’s an emotionally-charged topic that can lead to hostility, at least in my family. Plus, I prefer to leave it to the experts. I am not that knowledgeable, therefore I tend to lie low.

God point. Man, I hate abortion. Makes feel terribly sad…

Another good point. Did president Obama mandate paid abortions?

Amen brother.

Oh man, I am so sorry to hear that!!! I will, with out doubt, keep you in my daily prayers Jon. Please let me know how it went, once you are feeling better!

Heck no!!! Why would you ask that? If you don’t mind me asking: what happened to your knees?

KEP in a recent post, indicates he seems to think I am of that belief.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

.See what the EO says about it, as an example.

Jon

Is not their def the same as everyone’s? That they reject it does not mean their def is different.

 

[JonNC]

LOL…To be honest, I never talk politics…It’s an emotionally-charged topic that can lead to hostility, at least in my family. Plus, I prefer to leave it to the experts. I am not that knowledgeable, therefore I tend to lie low.

God point. Man, I hate abortion. Makes feel terribly sad…

Another good point. Did president Obama mandate paid abortions?

Amen brother.

Oh man, I am so sorry to hear that!!! I will, with out doubt, keep you in my daily prayers Jon. Please let me know how it went, once you are feeling better!

Heck no!!! Why would you ask that? If you don’t mind me asking: what happened to your knees?

Under the HHS mandate, Catholic hospitals, colleges, etc will have to provide Heath insurance that includes contraception including abortion coverage.
Jon

 

[joe370]

Under the HHS mandate, Catholic hospitals, colleges, etc will have to provide Heath insurance that includes contraception including abortion coverage.
Jon

Paid-for abortions??? Wow! This country is going to hell in a hand-basket, at a fierce pace…Very sad…

 

[benjohnson]

Paid-for abortions??? Wow! This country is going to hell in a hand-basket, at a fierce pace…Very sad…

It’s even worse… under current HHS mandates, Catholics have to pay for them! You can’t ‘opt-out’ - any Catholic charity or institution has to pay for abortions.

If you want to see a feisty Lutheran defend his faith, and the Catholic faith here it is:

youtube.com/watch?v=527spTZiwBU