Why Sola Scriptura is wrong?

[annad347]

All I said is Scripture was written before the Printing Press. What you are asking does not disregard that there was written Scripture before the written Bible we carry. As long as man was able to put words to paper, or chisel images on a wall there was written Scripture.

What Scripture do you think Jesus was referring too when He said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished" Matthew 5:16-17. He said Scripture had letters, strokes of letter… was written.

All I’m saying was written Scripture before the printing press. The only thing the printing press did was allow Scripture become the Bible you carry now a days.

The Church said “those writings belong in the Gospel”…

Yes, the church put together the Bible, but what they put together to create the Gospel, we now carry, came from words that were written, they did not write the words themselves… or dictate them by word of mouth from people in the present time the Bible was canonized… the words in the Bible was written before it was put together into what we have… before the printing press was created.

 

[Episcopalian]

The bible as we know it wasn’t fully ratified until the Council of Nicea. Mostly what was cut was lost to history, aside from say like Infancy Gospel of Thomas or something.

Prior to that, the books weren’t even written down for the first fifty to hundred years after Jesus’ death.

What kept the Church moving along was Sacred Tradition, and our Church Fathers had wisdom to build the Scripture through Church Tradition, and their Reason.

 

[Gorgias]

There is no record in that passage of Scripture of saints being asked for intercession.

Intercession is literally the act of lifting up your prayer intention to God. And that’s precisely what the elders are doing.

And who’s to say the 24 elders aren’t angels?

The author of Revelation, for one.

Lots of reasons:

• He describes the 24 elders as wearing white garments – which are later described as the garments which humans who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb are wearing.
• the 24 elders are wearing crowns; they’re the heads of tribes of Israel and apostles, who are said in Scripture to sit on thrones and rule.
• The angels are spoken of as distinct from the elders; they’re not the same. (See Rev 7:11).

So… no. These aren’t ‘angels’; they’re ‘elders’, on thrones, with crowns – they’re humans.

Prior to that, the books weren’t even written down for the first fifty to hundred years after Jesus’ death.

Some scholars say that. Others say that the Gospels were beginning to be written down within the first 30 years of the Church.

 

[Marcus_Aurelius1]

He describes the 24 elders as wearing white garments – which are later described as the garments which humans who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb are wearing.

Angels often have white robes.

the 24 elders are wearing crowns; they’re the heads of tribes of Israel and apostles, who are said in Scripture to sit on thrones and rule.

The text doesn’t identify them as such.

The angels are spoken of as distinct from the elders; they’re not the same.

Or they are just higher angels.

Intercession is literally the act of lifting up your prayer intention to God. And that’s precisely what the elders are doing.

It seems you’re just choosing to ignore the argument and context. Nowhere in that passage is it said that those on earth ask those in heaven for help.

 

[Ajay_Dsouza_1]

Sola Scriptura is wrong because we are the people of the Word of God and not the people of the Book.

Scripture is God driven, inspired by the Holy Spirit. But how to we know what the spirit inspires us today? That is through the Church whom Christ promised will be guided by the Holy Spirit. The same has been the process since ages, the Spirit guides - and this comes down to us as Tradition.

If we stick Sola Scriptura, we miss to understand the mind of God by limiting God to finish guiding everything by 1st Century AD (the period Biblical literature is written). Holy Spirit is still guiding as we rely on Church to make sure we are not led astray.

Peace to you as well.

 

[Gorgias]

Angels often have white robes.

In the context of Revelation? Let’s see:

Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?”

I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.”

He said to me, “These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Here, in Revelation, the “white robe” symbolizes baptism. Angels aren’t baptized.

In fact, in Revelation, angels aren’t described as wearing robes. Only humans. (Jesus, too, but he’s “fully human”, too.)

Gorgias:

the 24 elders are wearing crowns; they’re the heads of tribes of Israel and apostles, who are said in Scripture to sit on thrones and rule.

The text doesn’t identify them as such.

Rev 4:4 –

Surrounding the throne I saw twenty-four other thrones on which twenty-four elders sat, dressed in white garments and with gold crowns on their heads.

So… yeah. 24 elders; 24 thrones; 24 crowns.

Are the apostles told that they’d rule in heaven? Yep…

Mt 19:28 –

[Jesus replied to Peter,] “when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Not enough yet? OK… look at the description of the heavenly Jerusalem (in Rev 22, IIRC): on its twelve gates, we have the twelve tribes and the twelve apostles represented. It’s clearly a representation of the rule of the apostles in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Why are you so opposed to the idea? It’s pretty standard stuff…

Or they are just higher angels.

To steal a line from you… “the text doesn’t identify them as such”.

It seems you’re just choosing to ignore the argument and context.

No. I’m identifying that the act of “intercession” is exactly what the elders are doing!

Nowhere in that passage is it said that those on earth ask those in heaven for help.

So, let me get this straight: the multitude of saints in heaven are in the presence of God, and they’re praying to Him and worshipping Him there, so they’re clearly able to do so of their own accord. But then, in addition, there’s a completely superfluous offering of the prayers of the saints in heaven – and not by them, but on behalf of them, by the elders?

That just doesn’t make sense. In fact, it would seem to imply that, in the book of Revelation, the only prayers God hears – or which are presented to Him – are those of people who have already died. That’s plainly contradictory to Christian tradition.

Not sure why you want to rail against the teaching of the intercession of the saints, but… whatever.

 

[Marcus_Aurelius1]

In fact, in Revelation, angels aren’t described as wearing robes.

Therefore they are naked?

So… yeah. 24 elders; 24 thrones; 24 crowns.

24 ain’t twelve. And the Twelve tribes aren’t being judged.

No. I’m identifying that the act of “intercession” is exactly what the elders are doing!

But you haven’t proved the elders are being asked to intercede.

In fact, it would seem to imply that, in the book of Revelation, the only prayers God hears – or which are presented to Him – are those of people who have already died. That’s plainly contradictory to Christian tradition.

Or it just proves you like to extrapolate.

There is Church teaching and there is manipulating the texts. You’re doing the latter.

 

[Gorgias]

Therefore they are naked?

LOL!

Actually – and this might come as a surprise – Yes! In fact, the descriptions of the angels, with pairs of wings that are covering parts of their bodies, include a pair that cover their…erm… “thighs”, as the descriptions go.

24 ain’t twelve.

Yeah, but it sure is 2 x 12.

And the Twelve tribes aren’t being judged.

“Judged” – in a traditional Israelite context – means “ruled”. So… yeah.

But you haven’t proved the elders are being asked to intercede.

Sure I have! They’re giving the prayers of the holy ones to God! In a way that requires no interpretation, they’re interceding in the process!

There is Church teaching and there is manipulating the texts. You’re doing the latter.

Right. 'Cause the Church doesn’t teach that the saints in heaven intercede for us. It seems more like you’re attempting to manipulate the texts to not say what the Church teaches.

I think we’ve beaten this one to death. I’d recommend that you read up a bit more on Church teaching and apologetics, especially in this regard. Have a nice day, MA!

 

[VeryBlessed]

Or it just proves you like to extrapolate

All due respect but I think you’re both possibly extrapolating. Which raises the age-old question. Who gets to do the extrapolating? Whose extrapolation is the authoritative one, the right one, the most true one? Maybe whichever makes the most sense to ME (with my limited intellect, and prejudices I’m not even aware of, and blind spots, and my tendency to rationalize my own selfishness and sin)?

I suppose we all extrapolate on a personal level, by taking the truths of scripture and finding a specific outworking of those truths in our own personal lives. So it’s really a good thing in that context. But this is why I could never hold to a sola scriptura point of view anymore. There’s just too much room for individual misinterpretation, and therefore being misled by well intentioned but erroneous people. I could no longer believe that God left his church shepherdless, left to guess between many peoples opinions about what this verse means or what that verse means. Especially considering one of the last things Jesus asked his Father for in prayer, in John 17, that the church might be one.

Enjoying the discussion, thanks to all.

 

[Marcus_Aurelius1]

Yes ! In fact, the descriptions of the angels, with pairs of wings that are covering parts of their bodies, include a pair that cover their…erm… “thighs”, as the descriptions go.

Those are referring to the Seraphim. Not every angel

And angels in other passages are described as having white robes.

Yeah, but it sure is 2 x 12

The text doesn’t say this. You’re doing math the author of Scripture doesn’t have.

Judged” – in a traditional Israelite context – means “ruled”

Says who?

Sure I have!

Making an assertion isn’t proving it. Youve made the assertion not proved it.

It seems more like you’re attempting to manipulate the texts to not say what the Church teaches.

You’re using the text to imply people asking those in heaven for prayer. It doesn’t prove it

May I suggest that you actually read the text, before making unnecessary assumptions about what is being said?

 

[Marcus_Aurelius1]

You’re not gonna use Scripture to successfully prove that asking saints for intercession is licit.

What you can do is look for practice.

 

[Swordsman]

I was flipping through the pages of my Nissan manual today and a thought occurred to me: Why do I need Nissan Motors when I have this manual? I mean, everything I need to know is in here, right?

My friend brings his car in for service and asks the technicians questions and everything. What a moron! I have everything I need right here in this manual.

He’s making lease payments every month! My manual doesn’t say anything about making payments so I don’t do it. It’s awesome. Saves me money. Just me and my Nissan.

 

[goout]

You’re not gonna use Scripture to successfully prove that asking saints for intercession is licit.

What you can do is look for practice.

Couple of questions that are being glossed over:
Who are “saints” in your view? Do you acknowledge their existence in the "after"life?
What state are they in?
Assuming you believe saints are living, how are they living? What might they be doing, if such a thing can be asked.

I find it curious…as a Christian you must know that this life is the blink of any eye, and less even than a blink of an eye compared to the fullness that God has in store for us in God’s kingdom.
If the other side of the veil is all that awesome, shouldn’t those who are so fully alive be much much more than you can conceive?

 

[Marcus_Aurelius1]

Who are “saints” in your view?

Where in Scripture does praying to saints happen?

Answer me that.

 

[goout]

goout:

Who are “saints” in your view?

Where in Scripture does praying to saints happen?

Answer me that.

Answer a question to a person who does not even acknowledge saints are a thing?
Do we just die and float off into dust?
Is Christ a liar?

 

[Marcus_Aurelius1]

Answer a question to a person who does not even acknowledge saints are a thing?

Heck of an assumption to make. Will you or will you not answer me?

 

[goout]

goout:

Answer a question to a person who does not even acknowledge saints are a thing?

Heck of an assumption to make. Will you or will you not answer me?

I won’t answer your question. If we are on the same page on what a saint even is, then we could talk. It seems obvious we are not even close.

Who are the saints?

 

[goout]

goout:

Answer a question to a person who does not even acknowledge saints are a thing?

Heck of an assumption to make. Will you or will you not answer me?

Ok I have made an assumption that is not founded. My apologies. From the conversation it seemed your position was to not acknowledge the community of saints. Sorry if I misinterpreted.

 

[commenter]

The thread is going off track.

How about some posts describing what is right about Sola Scriptura,
as well as what may be lacking in it.

 

[Gorgias]

And angels in other passages are described as having white robes.

In Revelation? Can’t say I recall any. And, please keep in mind that Revelation is written in a literary genre nearly unique to itself in the Bible – apocalyptic. As such, symbols and signs are highly relevant. So, if we see “white robes” on humans as a sign of their baptism in Christ, then that’s what it means; and if we see angels “on mission” on earth in other books, that’s somewhat irrelevant.

The text doesn’t say this. You’re doing math the author of Scripture doesn’t have.

You’re welcome to your own personal interpretation. Me? I’ll stick to what a pope and saint has said.

Gorgias:

Judged” – in a traditional Israelite context – means “ruled”

Says who?

Says the Bible. Read the Book of Judges. See what they’re doing. (Hint: it doesn’t mean that they’re Judge Judy.)

Youve made the assertion not proved it.

I’ve certainly demonstrated my assertions from Scripture and references to the teachings of the Church. You’re free to disbelieve, if you choose.

May I suggest that you actually read the text, before making unnecessary assumptions about what is being said?

Pot, meet kettle?

Where in Scripture does praying to saints happen?

Answer me that.

See this article by Fr Mitch Pacwa, a well-known and respected priest. He makes a number of points about who the “communion of saints” is, and later on down in the article, he points out Scripture references. Happy reading!