Why Standing During the Eucharistic Prayer?

[smndtupidisaftr]

This is something that I’ve found to be pretty common at the local churches. I have a feeling that it has to do with Cardinal Roger Mahony’s letter about the liturgy (at least I was told that one time before Mass by someone who also said that we should all stand after Communion until all have received and then we can choose our posture, though that was a Mass where a woman gave the homily ). Is this being customary in places? I hate sticking out because I kneel at that part of the Mass when everyone else is standing, but I’m not going to stand during the consecration for no good reason. What are your thoughts?

It just seems like it’s things like this that really give people a bad taste for the NO, when it’s not even necessarily part of the NO. The NO really isn’t bad when celebrated properly, but it seems so hard (at least in my area) to find one that is celebrated according to the GIRM and RS. This isn’t to say that this standing issue is necessarily against those rubrics (I’m just not sure is why I’m adding this condition), but it’s just an though that has come to me recently.

 

[Corki]

The universal posture for the Consecration is kneeling. In the US, the directed posture is to kneel at least from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the great Amen. The only part that is optional on the part of the Bishop is kneeling after the Agnus Dei.

There are some very narrow exceptions to this which cover situations such as Mass in a stadium where kneeling might be hazardous. And of course, when an individual is not capable of safely kneeling and getting back up, he is excused.

IOW, standing during the Consecration is definately against the rubrics. Standing after Communion is not.

 

[Matopos]

Standing during the Eucharistic Prayer is an innovation. Unless there is good reason otherwise, kneeling is required. We were standing for the longest time until our new Pastor made things right. For a while, I was the only kneeler. Now everyone does it!

The argument before was that we ‘stand with the priest’. In truth, the priest acts ‘in persona Christi’. Before Christ ‘every knee shall bend’.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

What I can find from Cardinal Mahony’s letter:

“to be gathered round, if possible right around the altar, because what occurs here involves not only the bread and wine, but those standing near”

Maybe some have taken this to mean that we should all stand during the consecration? Even without that interpretation, are we really being encouraged to stand in the sanctuary?

 

[Richard320]

What letter by Cardinal Mahony?

He gets blamed for a lot of things he never did and quoted saying things he never said. I’m not saying he’s perfect by any means, but he’s nowhere near as bad as many people make him.

I’ve been to many of his Masses at the Cathedral prior to his retirement, and at many, many different parishes in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, and the norm is to kneel after the Holy, Holy, Holy until the end of the Great Amen. I’d go beyond norm and say my experience has been universal.

The Diocese of San Jose up north is another story.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

What letter by Cardinal Mahony?

He gets blamed for a lot of things he never did and quoted saying things he never said. I’m not saying he’s perfect by any means, but he’s nowhere near as bad as many people make him.

I’ve been to many of his Masses at the Cathedral prior to his retirement, and at many, many different parishes in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, and the norm is to kneel after the Holy, Holy, Holy until the end of the Great Amen. I’d go beyond norm and say my experience has been universal.

The Diocese of San Jose up north is another story.

Like I said, this is what was said by someone before Mass, not a verbatim quote from Cardinal Mahony, which is why I added some doubt about the veracity of what was said. I did provide a quote later that could have explained it, but he never says that we should all stand as far as I can tell, though I guess it could be interpreted that way.

And this is not all Masses in Los Angeles. I’ve mostly found this in churches on the westside of LA (that would be the 4 churches that I’ve been to over here, so even if it’s not common, it is too common).

EDIT: The letter is called Gather Faithfully Together. It is fairly controversial.

 

[Richard320]

Like I said, this is what was said by someone before Mass, not a verbatim quote from Cardinal Mahony, which is why I added some doubt about the veracity of what was said. I did provide a quote later that could have explained it, but he never says that we should all stand as far as I can tell, though I guess it could be interpreted that way.

And this is not all Masses in Los Angeles. I’ve mostly found this in churches on the westside of LA (that would be the 4 churches that I’ve been to over here, so even if it’s not common, it is too common).

EDIT: The letter is called Gather Faithfully Together. It is fairly controversial.

Hmmm… I found it myself and went through it all using Ctrl F on the word “stand” and didn’t see anything alarming.

As Chief Liturgist, it was his call to make this statement:

The orans posture (standing with hands outstretched, not linked) is appropriate for all at the Lord’s Prayer through “For the kingdom . . .”

archdiocese.la/archbishop/letters/liturgy/index.html

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Hmmm… I found it myself and went through it all using Ctrl F on the word “stand” and didn’t see anything alarming.

Right, and I mentioned the same thing. It seems as though what he said was misinterpreted. However, that same sentence did seem to say that we should stand around the altar, which I’m pretty sure is not allowed in the GIRM (which is one of the biggest beefs that people have with the Life Teen program).

As Chief Liturgist, it was his call to make this statement: archdiocese.la/archbishop/letters/liturgy/index.html

I’ve heard good arguments against it, but there are much worse things that go on during Masses than this. I personally don’t do it because it is a posture that is reserved to the priest during a Mass, but it’s better that than the way I’ve seen the Eucharist handled after Masses.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

An additional question I had while reading some of the GIRM: it seems to stress the unity of the congregation in posture. In that case, if the congregation stands during the consecration, should I stand also for unity, or kneel in order to follow the rubrics?

 

[Edmundus1581]

An additional question I had while reading some of the GIRM: it seems to stress the unity of the congregation in posture. In that case, if the congregation stands during the consecration, should I stand also for unity, or kneel in order to follow the rubrics?

I would hate to be put in that position, but I strongly feel that you should stand, for unity, and offer your distress up as a penance. To kneel, when everybody else is standing, is a very obvious gesture and could cause considerable misunderstanding and ill-feeling in the congregation. It would also distract attention from the altar, as people would be thinking “Why’s that guy kneeling?”.

Glad it’s not me though.

For many years in our Adelaide diocese we used a “gender inclusive” liturgy. It was never clear whether the bishop actually had the authority to do this, but he acted as if he did, and the diocese followed. I found this quite distressing, but said the words clearly and firmly, in obedience to our Bishop and for unity. Eventually, and thankfully, the new liturgy did away with that.

 

[enbell]

I would hate to be put in that position, but I strongly feel that you should stand, for unity, and offer your distress up as a penance. To kneel, when everybody else is standing, is a very obvious gesture and could cause considerable misunderstanding and ill-feeling in the congregation. It would also distract attention from the altar, as people would be thinking “Why’s that guy kneeling?”.

Glad it’s not me though.

For many years in our Adelaide diocese we used a “gender inclusive” liturgy. It was never clear whether the bishop actually had the authority to do this, but he acted as if he did, and the diocese followed. I found this quite distressing, but said the words clearly and firmly, in obedience to our Bishop and for unity. Eventually, and thankfully, the new liturgy did away with that.

I have been instructed to remain in unity with the congregation by our priest.

 

[Ancient1]

So Cardinal Mahony wrote a letter directing us to do weird things at Mass, which of course would only apply within his Archdiocese. He is no longer Archbishop. Let’s tear up this “controversial” letter and end the controversy right now and get people back on track to proper attitudes in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

Unfortunately some misguided or uninformed priests are still having their congregations assume irreverent postures. Unfortunately again, they apparently have not consulted the one proper authority on this matter, the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments.

If it did not come from that Vatican office, the letter is now completely irrelevant. In fact I’d say it’s an anachronism of an era which cannot pass too quickly.

 

[Ancient1]

I have been instructed to remain in unity with the congregation by our priest.

The purpose of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is NOT the unity of the congregation.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

The purpose of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is NOT the unity of the congregation.

No, but the GIRM specifically states:

"20. The uniformity in standing, kneeling, or sitting to be observed by all taking part is a sign of the community and the unity of the assembly; it both expresses and fosters the spiritual attitude of those taking part.[28]

1. For the sake of uniformity in movement and posture, the people should follow the directions given during the celebration by the deacon, the priest, or another minister."

That said, the positions are not just to be changed however the priests feels like doing it. There is some uniformity in what we are to do, but I can’t find any rationale behind this change nor is it something that was ever recommended at the diocese level (as far as I know) or by the USCCB.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I have been instructed to remain in unity with the congregation by our priest.

And your priest probably has an instruction from the bishop. He may not even agree with it, but he won’t show that. You are right to follow his (your priest’s) instruction.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

I hate to post so much in my own thread, but I just found a good point at two links, and I’ll post the one found from EWTN:

“The General Instruction (nn.42-43) does call for a unified posture of the people. These are important norms, since the outward sign of being the Mystical Body is in part manifested by the one posture of all, just as the sign of Christ the Head, and sign of His members, is manifested by the different postures and actions of the ordained versus the people. BUT, unity is also manifested, and more importantly, by the unity of rite with the Bishop and with the Pope. The life of every parish is dependant upon communion with the successor of the Apostles who is Bishop in that place. And, the life of the particular Church (the canonical term for a diocese) is the communion of its Bishop with the Successor of Peter, the Pope. Of what value is a common posture that acts as a sign of disunity with the particular and universal Church? None! It is a liturgical sign of Congregationalism, not Catholicism.”

So even with the unity argument, it seems as though I am still compelled to kneel in order to be in unity with Masses said throughout the world. I feel much better after reading that.

I emailed the parish about it, and hopefully I’ll hear a charitable response. If I can effect a positive change, I have a few other parishes I’ll need to email as well about this. As far as I can tell, there is no exemption to kneeling during the consecration, at least as a regular posture (there are special extenuating circumstances, of course), so there is no good reason to proscribe it. I’ll pray that God’s will is achieved.

 

[mdgspencer]

It is wrong for the congregation to stand during the euchatistic prayer. You may feel though that it is better to act in unity with the congregation (though in all actuality in cases of liturgical abuse, the unity actually called for is unity with the Church as a whole). I would hardly think it a matter of wrong-doing in your case if you stand under such compulsion, though you might rather consider simply going to mass elsewhere.

I have been instructed to remain in unity with the congregation by our priest.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I hate to post so much in my own thread, but I just found a good point at two links, and I’ll post the one found from EWTN:

“The General Instruction (nn.42-43) does call for a unified posture of the people. These are important norms, since the outward sign of being the Mystical Body is in part manifested by the one posture of all, just as the sign of Christ the Head, and sign of His members, is manifested by the different postures and actions of the ordained versus the people. BUT, unity is also manifested, and more importantly,** by the unity of rite with the Bishop and with the Pope**. The life of every parish is dependant upon communion with the successor of the Apostles who is Bishop in that place. And, the life of the particular Church (the canonical term for a diocese) is the communion of its Bishop with the Successor of Peter, the Pope. Of what value is a common posture that acts as a sign of disunity with the particular and universal Church? None! It is a liturgical sign of Congregationalism, not Catholicism.”

So even with the unity argument, it seems as though I am still compelled to kneel in order to be in unity with Masses said throughout the world. I feel much better after reading that.

I emailed the parish about it, and hopefully I’ll hear a charitable response. If I can effect a positive change, I have a few other parishes I’ll need to email as well about this. As far as I can tell, there is no exemption to kneeling during the consecration, at least as a regular posture (there are special extenuating circumstances, of course), so there is no good reason to proscribe it. I’ll pray that God’s will is achieved.

Note:** “Bishop”**. The Bishop has authority on matters of liturgy in your diocese, so if this directive is coming from the Bishop then you should follow it. If it is not, then you have more of an argument, but first, find out if is from the Bishop.

Communion with your Bishop is of fundamental importance in the Catholic Church, even if he’s wrong.

We have got into arguments (in CAF) before about the limits of the Bishop’s authority on liturgy, but that is somewhere that you really don’t want to go. Only a fool, or canon lawyer, would defy his bishop over liturgy (unless it were an obvious, grave, abuse - and I’ve never heard of that).

Saint Cyprian of Carthage, AD 254:

“There speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest and the flock clinging to their shepherd are the Church.** You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. **They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priests of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is One and Catholic, is not split nor divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere one to another.” (Cyprian, Letter 66 (69), 8 to Florentius Pupianus, c. AD 254)

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Note:** “Bishop”**. The Bishop has authority on matters of liturgy in your diocese, so if this directive is coming from the Bishop then you should follow it. If it is not, then you have more of an argument, but first, find out if is from the Bishop.

As far as I can tell it is not. The letter cited by the lay person before Mass did not state that we should stand during the consecration, and that cardinal is retired now anyway.

But I guess this begs a question: could a US bishop go directly against what is clearly stated by the USCCB?

Communion with your Bishop is of fundamental importance in the Catholic Church, even if he’s wrong.

Without getting into any texts or rubrics, this quickly strikes me as wrong. I don’t know, maybe I’m seeing everything as too black and white and envisioning some renegade bishop (an entirely implausible scenario). But you’re right, it’s a little off topic for this thread anyway since I don’t even think it applies to this issue.

 

[Edmundus1581]

As far as I can tell it is not. The letter cited by the lay person before Mass did not state that we should stand during the consecration, and that cardinal is retired now anyway. If it was from the previous Bishop then it is in effect until the current Bishop retracts it

But I guess this begs a question: could a US bishop go directly against what is clearly stated by the USCCB? Whether he should or shouldn’t, he is able to. Unless it is a grave abuse, impossible for you to follow, you must follow YOUR bishop.