Why such hate? (observations from those I know)

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Mystophilus:
Which none of the Catholics who post here would like to do to Protestants, of course, because all of them accept Protestantism as a fully valid form of belief?

I think not. Catholic acceptance of Protestantism is neither better nor worse than Protestant acceptance of Catholicism, and sectarianism is all just such an enormous waste of time.
Mystophilus----have you ever lived in the deep South? Do you know who the 3 targets of the KKK were and still are? Blacks, Jews and Catholics—primarily of course Blacks. Who do you think donned the hoods—well I can tell you—many of my S. Baptist and Church of Christ ancestors! Trust me—it ain’t no secret anymore. Of course we Catholics have skeletons in our closet as well!!

The difference is as Catholics we do not consider Protestant churches as being non-Christian. And in all fairness, you may find some open minded fundamentalist Protestants who don’t agree with their church’s anti-catholic bias.

However, I well remember a local Catholic church who wanted to partner with our Baptist church for a joint Thanksgiving service----you would have thought the proposal was from Satan himself. Needless to say it didn’t happen. That was in Montgomery, Al about 5 years ago. Also, I was hired to teach a music appreciation class at a Church of Christ college in the same town where I was told to never reveal the fact that I was Catholic. Unfortunately, a student discovered that I was and complained to the dean that the Catholic church was mentioned too many times during my lectures on medieval music. Fortunately the dean blew it off.

To say that sectarianism is a waste of time is to say that no one church has the corner on the entire truth, and that God is the author of perpetual confusion. Mystophilus,I respect your opinion, and it is one that I held dearly for about 20 years. And then I discovered THE CHURCH…
 
kim wilson:
Mystophilus----have you ever lived in the deep South? Do you know who the 3 targets of the KKK were and still are? Blacks, Jews and Catholics—primarily of course Blacks. Who do you think donned the hoods—well I can tell you—many of my S. Baptist and Church of Christ ancestors! Trust me—it ain’t no secret anymore. Of course we Catholics have skeletons in our closet as well!!
Have you ever lived in Northern Ireland? Did you know that Catholics have killed more than twice as many people as Protestants have?

More importantly, does it matter?

No, not really. Whoever pulls the trigger, humans still die, and it is still unjust. Were we to trawl through the annals of history looking for a comparative bodycount, it would do nothing to indicate which group is ‘better’.
kim wilson:
The difference is as Catholics we do not consider Protestant churches as being non-Christian. And in all fairness, you may find some open minded fundamentalist Protestants who don’t agree with their church’s anti-catholic bias.
Which is to say that some Catholics do not consider Protestants to be non-Christian, just as some Protestants do not consider Catholics to be non-Christian. People are people, and plenty of bad things are done by members of any large group.
kim wilson:
To say that sectarianism is a waste of time is to say that no one church has the corner on the entire truth, and that God is the author of perpetual confusion. Mystophilus,I respect your opinion, and it is one that I held dearly for about 20 years. And then I discovered THE CHURCH…
To say that sectarianism is a waste of time is to say that no one church has a monopoly on the truth, yes. However, it says nothing whatsoever about God: agency is not ascribed to God (or to anything else) by that statement.

I am glad that you have found a church in which you are happy. If only more people were happier with their own beliefs, they might find less need to attack others.
 
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VociMike:
Neither do we have things like Chick tracts or books, magazines and websites declaring Protestantism to be the Whore, the Beast, the Antichrist, etc.
You are partly right, inasmuch as you do not have Chick tracts, and Protestantism is not generally described as a particular figure, merely as “heresy”.

Here are a few samples, found by doing a whole two Google searches, with a total search time of 0.44 seconds:
Magazines (including book reviews):
crisismagazine.com/julaug2003/book3.htm
latinmassmagazine.com/stickler.asp
Websites:
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protesy.htm
chastitysf.guidetopsychology.com/protestants.htm
catholic.com/library/great_heresies.asp
 
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Mystophilus:
You are partly right, inasmuch as you do not have Chick tracts, and Protestantism is not generally described as a particular figure, merely as “heresy”.

Touche Mystipholus.

heresy: NOUN: 1a. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member. b. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.

Still, heresy seems a very light criticism compared to depictions of Catholics melting in hell or being called the “Whore of Babylon.”
 
kim wilson:
As a Montgomery, Alabama rabbi once said to me, “We have something in common; I am not a Christian, and most people around here don’t think you are a Christian either.”
Thanks for the laugh.
 
I can fully relate to this misunderstanding. I converted to Catholicism at 21 and met my wife in the Church 5 years later. When we married, not one of my uncles or aunts who are all baptists or some other evangelical attended the wedding. I feel, and I do know my family well, that it was because it was in a Catholic Church. Even some of ny Wife’s relatives didnt come because where the wedding took place. How sad that people can be so misinformed. I experience this misunderstanding of the Catholic faith on a daily basis. Remember though what Christ taught us; the world hated him, it will hate us also.
 
First of all I find the title of your topic inappropriate. I don’t think it’s so much about hatred as it is about pride. Those Protestants are proud, and certain of their faith as much as stubborn Catholics are of theirs. I will not go into what is “good pride” as opposed to “wrong pride”; I feel that most people in this forum are mature enough to understand what is meant by those two terms. Furthermore, this topic is simply stupid, given the fact that we are not living in a “utopia” kind of world. I find it unnecessary to come here, whining and complaining about having people disagree with you. I have a few questions for streetcar, and I want the answers to have been well-thought: 1) Do you know what you’re getting into by considering catholicism? If so, then what does “protestant hatred” matter? 2) Have all your years of Protestantism been so filled with ignorance and stupidity that you never noticed hatred among your church members? And finally be honest with yourself; didn’t you posed this topic, here, among Catholics, to incite some inner mockery, with a shade of some elevated pride, and a continuation of the legendary art of slandering?
 
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Mystophilus:
You are partly right, inasmuch as you do not have Chick tracts, and Protestantism is not generally described as a particular figure, merely as “heresy”.

Here are a few samples, found by doing a whole two Google searches, with a total search time of 0.44 seconds:
I acknowledge your sarcasm, if that pleases you.
That’s quite a stretch, from Whore, Beast and Antichrist to heresy. Yes, many Protestant teachings are heretical. That is to say, they are corruptions of true dogma. Most Catholics don’t see any point in using the term towards Protestants nowadays. It doesn’t accomplish much, if anything.
 
kim wilson:
heresy: NOUN: 1a. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member. b. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.

Still, heresy seems a very light criticism compared to depictions of Catholics melting in hell or being called the “Whore of Babylon.”
I find it interesting that you have chosen a definition which represents the term specifically in reference to the Catholic Church, rather than the wider definition available in the second half of the American Heritage Dictionary’s entry, or that in the OED. What they show, however, is partly displayed above: the effect of the accusation of heresy is a twofold, in that it both condemns the activity of the other and validates the ideology of the self. In other words, it does not merely say, “You are wrong”, but, instead, “You are wrong because you disagree with us.” This has an interesting effect when we compare that with just exactly what ‘heresy’ is, from a Catholic perspective.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, heresy is listed among the “ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body” (paragraph 817). So, heresy is characterised not merely as difference of opinion, individuality, or dissent, but rather as an attack upon the Body of Christ. Heretics are violent assailants of the Church, then, a description remarkably reminiscent of that of the Thief in John 10:10, which is usually read as a description of Satan. It seems remarkably similar to the charge against the Whore of Babylon, in that she was found “drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus” (Rev 17:6).

Returning to the CCC, we find a more thorough definition of heresy, when it is described as “the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same” (2089; my emphasis). That “must” is important.

Now, we turn to the concept of mortal sin, a sin “whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.” (1857) Heresy concerns a grave matter, because it is refusal to accept something which “must” be believed and because it is an assault on the Body of Christ. It is, from a Catholic ideological viewpoint, committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent because it can only be committed by someone who has been baptised, i.e., by someone who theoretically belongs to the Catholic Church and can no longer unknowingly deviate from Catholic dogma (which is the difference between ‘heresy’ and ‘incredulity’, in para 2089). Thus, heresy is a mortal sin.

Of mortal sin, it should be noted that, “If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell” (1861). Heresy is a ticket to Hell, then.

The Catholic Encyclopedia follows the same logic, saying, in its entry on the ‘Gravity of Heresy’, ‘Now faith is the most precious possession of man, the root of his supernatural life, the pledge of his eternal salvation. Privation of faith is therefore the greatest evil, and deliberate rejection of faith is the greatest sin. St. Thomas (II-II, Q. x, a. 3) arrives at the same conclusion thus: “All sin is an aversion from God. A sin, therefore, is the greater the more it separates man from God. But infidelity does this more than any other sin, for the infidel (unbeliever) is without the true knowledge of God: his false knowledge does not bring him help, for what he opines is not God: manifestly, then, the sin of unbelief ( infidelitas ) is the greatest sin in the whole range of perversity.”’

So, the accusation that Protestantism is a heresy is tantamount within Catholic ideology to an accusation of the perpetration of a violent, malicious crime against the Body of Christ, a crime which, as a mortal sin, will result in the perpetrator going directly to Hell.

Brigand and fuel for the fires, or prostitute and fuel for the fires? The charge against Protestants is certainly no less than the charge against Catholics, and the two are so similar that I have to suspect that they were issued in the same era, one in response to the other.

Personally, I would rather go for “there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift” (Rom 3:22-4), but that is a minority viewpoint.
 
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VociMike:
I acknowledge your sarcasm, if that pleases you.
It doesn’t, but thank you for the thought. Out of sheer laziness, I just prefer it if intelligent individuals, such as yourself, reconsider and check assumptions before asserting them.
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VociMike:
That’s quite a stretch, from Whore, Beast and Antichrist to heresy. Yes, many Protestant teachings are heretical. That is to say, they are corruptions of true dogma. Most Catholics don’t see any point in using the term towards Protestants nowadays. It doesn’t accomplish much, if anything.
Heresy = a ticket to Hell, q.v. my response to Kim Wilson on the same point.
 
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justin:
First of all I find the title of your topic inappropriate. I don’t think it’s so much about hatred as it is about pride. Those Protestants are proud, and certain of their faith as much as stubborn Catholics are of theirs. I will not go into what is “good pride” as opposed to “wrong pride”; I feel that most people in this forum are mature enough to understand what is meant by those two terms. Furthermore, this topic is simply stupid, given the fact that we are not living in a “utopia” kind of world. I find it unnecessary to come here, whining and complaining about having people disagree with you. I have a few questions for streetcar, and I want the answers to have been well-thought: 1) Do you know what you’re getting into by considering catholicism? If so, then what does “protestant hatred” matter? 2) Have all your years of Protestantism been so filled with ignorance and stupidity that you never noticed hatred among your church members? And finally be honest with yourself; didn’t you posed this topic, here, among Catholics, to incite some inner mockery, with a shade of some elevated pride, and a continuation of the legendary art of slandering?
How comforting it is to know that these forums are monitored by you, Justin, and that you would be so kind as to inform us of those threads that are “simply stupid.” When I first read streetcar’s post, I was among the duped, believing it to be heartfelt and sincere.

He had done such a marvelous job of concealing his true motives (inciting mockery, elevating pride, propogating slander) that had you not pointed these out, I would still think he was just an 18 year old guy looking for answers in this world.
 
My boss is Lutheran and we were having a conversation about the differences between being Catholic and being Lutheran a few months ago. This is a conversation we have often as we both find it very educating and interesting. Well, during this one conversation one of my co-workers was standing there (she’s Baptist). I had asked my boss if they celebrate Lent, he said yes. Then I asked him if they celebrate Ash Wednesday, he said no. I went on to say, “Oh, you guys don’t get the ashes on your forehead, etc?”… he said no. Then my co-worker said, “If you come to work that day with ashes on your forehead I’m going to laugh!”

Immediately after she said that I looked down and said, “Well, I’m going to go outside and get some air.” Right when I got up my boss called her into his office. Needless to say she came out with tears on her face (he obviously tore into her good) and she apologized. The end effect? We aren’t allowed to talk about religion in the office anymore (except if its just me and my boss). 😉
 
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justin:
First of all I find the title of your topic inappropriate. I don’t think it’s so much about hatred as it is about pride. Those Protestants are proud, and certain of their faith as much as stubborn Catholics are of theirs. I will not go into what is “good pride” as opposed to “wrong pride”; I feel that most people in this forum are mature enough to understand what is meant by those two terms.
Pride can be good, pride can be bad. But when it’s a “I’m better than you for even considering the Catholic faith” I get from my protestant peers, that pride is always bad.
Furthermore, this topic is simply stupid, given the fact that we are not living in a “utopia” kind of world. I find it unnecessary to come here, whining and complaining about having people disagree with you.
When you quote a word, that implies that I said that. Where do you see my usage of the word utopia? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Nowhere, except for just now. I never even implied anything of the sort - if you actually knew something about me as opposed to assuming things, you’d know I want nothing of the sort. God forbid I would complain about people reconciling misunderstanding differences! People can honestly disagree with each other without making ignorant or bigoted comments, which is what I experienced and caused me to make this thread in the first place.
I have a few questions for streetcar, and I want the answers to have been well-thought: 1) Do you know what you’re getting into by considering catholicism? If so, then what does “protestant hatred” matter? 2) Have all your years of Protestantism been so filled with ignorance and stupidity that you never noticed hatred among your church members? And finally be honest with yourself; didn’t you posed this topic, here, among Catholics, to incite some inner mockery, with a shade of some elevated pride, and a continuation of the legendary art of slandering?
  1. Yes I do. Why does it matter? Because I consider Protestants and Catholics equally Christian, and I want equality amongst all true Christians. I’m not asking for some sort of ultra-hippie group hug - just peaceful understanding, without bigotry, hate, or ignorance. Is that too much to ask?
  2. I love how you assume you know my entire spiritual life. Your “ignorance and stupidity remark” shows this, don’t deny that. How dare you judge me so immediately - you know nothing my knowledge, my faith, or my past. My entire life from Birth to 18 I’ve been raised in protestant churches - mostly Baptist. The idea that somebody wants to go and learn something about others that are not his own - what a shocking concept!
  3. Um, no. Please, stop assuming things you know nothing about. I have nothing else to say to this because it sounds like you are the one trying to incite things.
When you stop crying your river, please build a bridge and get over it. You’d be doing catholics and protestants alike a huge favor.
 
To everyone else - thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut in this thread. I can’t individually thank you all, but really, all of the varying comments are appreciated.

-Jake
 
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Mystophilus:
I find it interesting that you have chosen a definition which represents the term specifically in reference to the Catholic Church, rather than the wider definition available in the second half of the American Heritage Dictionary’s entry, or that in the OED. What they show, however, is partly displayed above: the effect of the accusation of heresy is a twofold, in that it both condemns the activity of the other and validates the ideology of the self. In other words, it does not merely say, “You are wrong”, but, instead, “You are wrong because you disagree with us.” This has an interesting effect when we compare that with just exactly what ‘heresy’ is, from a Catholic perspective.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, heresy is listed among the “ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body” (paragraph 817). So, heresy is characterised not merely as difference of opinion, individuality, or dissent, but rather as an attack upon the Body of Christ. Heretics are violent assailants of the Church, then, a description remarkably reminiscent of that of the Thief in John 10:10, which is usually read as a description of Satan. It seems remarkably similar to the charge against the Whore of Babylon, in that she was found “drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus” (Rev 17:6).

Returning to the CCC, we find a more thorough definition of heresy, when it is described as “the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same” (2089; my emphasis). That “must” is important.

Now, we turn to the concept of mortal sin, a sin “whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.” (1857) Heresy concerns a grave matter, because it is refusal to accept something which “must” be believed and because it is an assault on the Body of Christ. It is, from a Catholic ideological viewpoint, committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent because it can only be committed by someone who has been baptised, i.e., by someone who theoretically belongs to the Catholic Church and can no longer unknowingly deviate from Catholic dogma (which is the difference between ‘heresy’ and ‘incredulity’, in para 2089). Thus, heresy is a mortal sin.

Of mortal sin, it should be noted that, “If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell” (1861). Heresy is a ticket to Hell, then.

The Catholic Encyclopedia follows the same logic, saying, in its entry on the ‘Gravity of Heresy’, ‘Now faith is the most precious possession of man, the root of his supernatural life, the pledge of his eternal salvation. Privation of faith is therefore the greatest evil, and deliberate rejection of faith is the greatest sin. St. Thomas (II-II, Q. x, a. 3) arrives at the same conclusion thus: “All sin is an aversion from God. A sin, therefore, is the greater the more it separates man from God. But infidelity does this more than any other sin, for the infidel (unbeliever) is without the true knowledge of God: his false knowledge does not bring him help, for what he opines is not God: manifestly, then, the sin of unbelief ( infidelitas ) is the greatest sin in the whole range of perversity.”’

So, the accusation that Protestantism is a heresy is tantamount within Catholic ideology to an accusation of the perpetration of a violent, malicious crime against the Body of Christ, a crime which, as a mortal sin, will result in the perpetrator going directly to Hell.

Brigand and fuel for the fires, or prostitute and fuel for the fires? The charge against Protestants is certainly no less than the charge against Catholics, and the two are so similar that I have to suspect that they were issued in the same era, one in response to the other.

Personally, I would rather go for “there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift” (Rom 3:22-4), but that is a minority viewpoint.

The last passage is a favourite 🙂 Every single person is in the wrong before God: and God alone can “put us in the right” 🙂 - make us righteous. So, no room for boasting is left, at all​

 
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justin:
First of all I find the title of your topic inappropriate. I don’t think it’s so much about hatred as it is about pride. Those Protestants are proud, and certain of their faith as much as stubborn Catholics are of theirs. I will not go into what is “good pride” as opposed to “wrong pride”; I feel that most people in this forum are mature enough to understand what is meant by those two terms. Furthermore, this topic is simply stupid, given the fact that we are not living in a “utopia” kind of world. I find it unnecessary to come here, whining and complaining about having people disagree with you. I have a few questions for streetcar, and I want the answers to have been well-thought: 1) Do you know what you’re getting into by considering catholicism? If so, then what does “protestant hatred” matter? 2) Have all your years of Protestantism been so filled with ignorance and stupidity that you never noticed hatred among your church members? And finally be honest with yourself; didn’t you posed this topic, here, among Catholics, to incite some inner mockery, with a shade of some elevated pride, and a continuation of the legendary art of slandering?
You know man this post is rude :mad: This is a message board and he wanted to talk about what he is experiencing!Alot of us went through the same thing and it leaves you with questions,this is not a stupid thread and I do think it is over the line to call it that:banghead:
 
Bottom line—many evangelicals hate our Faith because they view many of our beliefs as heretical. Some go so far as to say Catholocism is of satanic origin.

Either way it’s interesting to note that out of all those who hate and condemn Catholocism, they can’t seem to agree on a lot of issues. 36,000 different Protestant denominations and still counting! Wish they’d turn more on each other rather than us. Wishful thinking…

However, brethren and sisthren (i made that word up) count it all joy when you suffer and always be ready to give an answer for your faith!

And to you Streetcar----how wonderful that you’ve chosen to truly and honestly investigate our Faith!! I shall pray for you.

kim
 
Heresy = a ticket to Hell, q.v. my response to Kim Wilson on the same point.----MYSTOPHILUS__________________
My dear Mystophilus,

Heresy is only a ticket to hell if you have known the truth and purposefully and willfully reject it. Heresy is not a ticket to hell if you were born and raised in it and don’t know any better.

kim
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Every single person is in the wrong before God: and God alone can “put us in the right” 🙂 - make us righteous. So, no room for boasting is left, at all ##

Wholeheartedly agreed.

Would you say that this universal error covers not only how we have lived (i.e., having sinned) but also our theology?
 
BeluvdLily
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahimsa
Don’t forget. Part of the reason the British came to America was to make sure the Catholics didn’t take over all of the New World and leave Protestantism behind.
Old prejudices die hard.
Were you being serious here? I don’t mean to be stupid but I have never heard of this and only had the impression that they came to be able to worship as they pleased without persecution. If it is true, can you tell me where the info came from?
I think Ahimsa may be referring to the settling of much of South America by Spanish Catholics. I suppose that might have driven the British to grab North America while the grabbing was good!
 
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