Why the bible is most assuredly not a Catholic book,

[Gamera]

You are using sophistry now and know quite well what I mean.

No, it truly isn’t sophistry. I am not “playing dumb.” On the contrary, I’ve never heard a coherent definition of “worship” that would include veneration. The only such definition of “worship” that I’ve heard, not just from you but from anyone, ever, amounts to what the Supreme Court justice said about pornography: “I know it when I see it.” That is totally subjective. I would love to hear a non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christian offer a specific, coherent, written definition of what it is about veneration which constitutes “unknowing idolatry.”

 

[cazayoux]

Check out the Seventh Council of Nicea. The relationship of images to the Incarnation is beautifully laid out there.

Glad you pointed this out!
It is stated plainly enough.

The Council’s Proclamation
“We define that the holy icons, whether in color, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honor (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature, … which is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands.”

This was in response to those that thought the art should be destroyed.
It’s not that this council was where the Church said graven images are okay.
Graven images were okay all along as evidenced in the old testament.
The council clearly states that this items are not worshiped, which is exactly what the command of God forbids.

Thanks!

michel

 

[mercygate]

Glad you pointed this out!
It is stated plainly enough.

This was in response to those that thought the art should be destroyed.
It’s not that this council was where the Church said graven images are okay.
Graven images were okay all along as evidenced in the old testament.
The council clearly states that this items are not worshiped, which is exactly what the command of God forbids.

Thanks!

michel

That certainly clinches the case for me – or did when I first encountered it (as a Protestant) many years ago.

 

[TriuneUnity]

TriuneUnity,
You don’t understand our feelings for veneration because you/your church/don’t think that way or utilize the Communion of Saints, or believe in intercessory prayer. Because the Catholic Church always has, the apostles did, (as we have tried to show you)

I haven’t seen a single attempt to show that the apostles believed in intercession with the dead in Christ.

 

[TriuneUnity]

No, it truly isn’t sophistry. I am not “playing dumb.” On the contrary, I’ve never heard a coherent definition of “worship” that would include veneration. The only such definition of “worship” that I’ve heard, not just from you but from anyone, ever, amounts to what the Supreme Court justice said about pornography: “I know it when I see it.” That is totally subjective. I would love to hear a non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christian offer a specific, coherent, written definition of what it is about veneration which constitutes “unknowing idolatry.”

We are not to address our prayers to anyone but God himself. Prayer by definition is an act of worship. Since worship is reserved for God, we are not to worship fellow creatures (Revelation 19:10). Thus, anything involving intercession in heaven is a form of worship and hence, idolatry. (Whether you know it or not.)

As far as subjectivity goes I don’t honestly believe that people are confused about what religious worship is.

We have no command of God in Scripture to ask those who are in heaven to pray for us, nor do we have any promise of God that people in heaven can hear our prayers. In fact, to believe that the saints in heaven have the ability to hear the prayers of people all over the world is to ascribe to them power and abilities that belong to God alone.

 

[allhers]

Always for Him—

Excellent!! (Just didn’t want to put your whole last post up here again.)

 

[jmcrae]

We are not to address our prayers to anyone but God himself. Prayer by definition is an act of worship. Since worship is reserved for God, we are not to worship fellow creatures (Revelation 19:10). Thus, anything involving intercession in heaven is a form of worship and hence, idolatry. (Whether you know it or not.)

So, the Saints in Heaven who receive the prayers of the just are committing idolotry?

As far as subjectivity goes I don’t honestly believe that people are confused about what religious worship is.

It is to offer a sacrifice on an altar to one’s god. So far, I have never observed anyone offering sacrifices to the Saints on any altars.

We have no command of God in Scripture to ask those who are in heaven to pray for us, nor do we have any promise of God that people in heaven can hear our prayers.

We do, however, have God’s commandment to them to listen to our prayers and to help us - which works out to the same thing, does it not?

In fact, to believe that the saints in heaven have the ability to hear the prayers of people all over the world is to ascribe to them power and abilities that belong to God alone.

Not at all - it makes no sense at all to believe that the Saints in Heaven are bound and gagged with their ears stuffed up with cotton, or that they are less able to help their fellow Christians than they were when they walked upon the earth. If anything, their abilities should be multiplied; not reduced.

 

[TriuneUnity]

So, the Saints in Heaven who receive the prayers of the just are committing idolotry?

Could you clarify what you are referring to here?

It is to offer a sacrifice on an altar to one’s god. So far, I have never observed anyone offering sacrifices to the Saints on any altars.

So religious worship only involves offering sacrifices to a god? Maybe that would pertain to the Canaanites, but I haven’t seen any Episcopalians offering bulls in their chapels!

We do, however, have God’s commandment to them to listen to our prayers and to help us - which works out to the same thing, does it not?

No. Because the prayers He commands are to living saints on earth praying for their brethren. It is a leap of logic to say that it also applies to the dead.

Not at all - it makes no sense at all to believe that the Saints in Heaven are bound and gagged with their ears stuffed up with cotton, or that they are less able to help their fellow Christians than they were when they walked upon the earth. If anything, their abilities should be multiplied; not reduced.

The souls in heaven are neither omniscient nor omnipresent. These are attributes God alone possesses. While the saints in heaven may pray for the Church in general, for them to hear communication would be to deny God’s incommunicable attributes.

 

[allhers]

I haven’t seen a single attempt to show that the apostles believed in intercession with the dead in Christ.

Well, the dead in Christ are alive in Christ, our whole Church prays together, the Church Triumphant (in heaven, the Victorious ones who have already made it), the Church Suffering (those awaiting the glory of seeing God face to face in purgatory undergoing purification, as nothing unholy shall enter His presence), and us, the Church Militant, here on earth. We all pray together, just as the Apostles did with our dear Blessed Mother and some of the other women in Acts of the Apostels.
We still pray with her, with those who are now their representatives on earth and with those who have reached the fulfillment!!

 

[allhers]

We are not to address our prayers to anyone but God himself. Prayer by definition is an act of worship. Since worship is reserved for God, we are not to worship fellow creatures (Revelation 19:10). Thus, anything involving intercession in heaven is a form of worship and hence, idolatry. (Whether you know it or not.)

As far as subjectivity goes I don’t honestly believe that people are confused about what religious worship is.

We have no command of God in Scripture to ask those who are in heaven to pray for us, nor do we have any promise of God that people in heaven can hear our prayers. In fact, to believe that the saints in heaven have the ability to hear the prayers of people all over the world is to ascribe to them power and abilities that belong to God alone.

Did you know that all the prayers of the Catholic Church were directed to God?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Did you know that all the prayers of the Catholic Church were directed to God?

The Marian prayers seem directed to her. I am sure the vast majority of Catholic prayers are directed solely to God in Christ.

 

[PerryJ]

We are not to address our prayers to anyone but God himself. Prayer by definition is an act of worship. Since worship is reserved for God, we are not to worship fellow creatures (Revelation 19:10). Thus, anything involving intercession in heaven is a form of worship and hence, idolatry. (Whether you know it or not.)

I am curios about your beliefs concerning this matter. It would appear, tell me if I am wrong, that you believe that the dead are disconnected from us.

Have you ever prayed for a relative, or friend?

We believe the dead are still alive and are part of our family. As such we can talk to them. (Of course I don’t hear a response; however, they can hear me.) They can still pray for us as they are alive. Perhaps their prayers are better as they are not tainted by this world any longer.

 

[jmcrae]

Could you clarify what you are referring to here?

I can’t find it straight away, but there is a passage in the Book of Revelation about the Saints in Heaven bringing the prayers of the just (people still on earth) to the four elders, so that the four elders can offer them to God.

So religious worship only involves offering sacrifices to a god? Maybe that would pertain to the Canaanites, but I haven’t seen any Episcopalians offering bulls in their chapels!

They also don’t have a Levitical priesthood, so they would not be able to offer bulls, in any case - but I think they assume themselves to be offering the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ on their altars, do they not?

No. Because the prayers He commands are to living saints on earth praying for their brethren. It is a leap of logic to say that it also applies to the dead.

So, we will stop obeying Christ’s commandments when we get to Heaven?

The souls in heaven are neither omniscient nor omnipresent.

They are in Heaven, which itself is in the heart of every believer - which seems “omnipresent” to me. (Heaven is not a “place” as such; it is the state of being joined with the infinite and eternal God.) But they wouldn’t actually need to be omnipresent, any more than I need to be where you are, for us to be able to communicate.

These are attributes God alone possesses. While the saints in heaven may pray for the Church in general, for them to hear communication would be to deny God’s incommunicable attributes.

Why, necessarily?

 

[allhers]

We are not to address our prayers to anyone but God himself. Prayer by definition is an act of worship. Since worship is reserved for God, we are not to worship fellow creatures (Revelation 19:10). Thus, anything involving intercession in heaven is a form of worship and hence, idolatry. (Whether you know it or not.)

As far as subjectivity goes I don’t honestly believe that people are confused about what religious worship is.

We have no command of God in Scripture to ask those who are in heaven to pray for us, nor do we have any promise of God that people in heaven can hear our prayers. In fact, to believe that the saints in heaven have the ability to hear the prayers of people all over the world is to ascribe to them power and abilities that belong to God alone.

We don’t worship creatures, we worship only God.
Intercessory prayer is not worship and has been pointed out to you by Gamera, from the Bible on what St. James said, and you yourself said that St. Paul also said so, he did.

We aren’t confused, you are right about that.

We don’t need to be commanded by God to pray with anyone or for anyone, but the Bible does say to pray for one another.
We don’t ascribe power and abilites to anyone that God hasn’t given them, we all know that it is by God’s power that anyone who is alive in Christ can hear our prayers via Him.

I’m glad we cleared that up for you.

 

[allhers]

The Marian prayers seem directed to her. I am sure the vast majority of Catholic prayers are directed solely to God in Christ.

Well actually you can pray to anyone who is alive in Christ as that is called communication and our prayers are directed to God, who did you think they were praying to?

 

[TriuneUnity]

I can’t find it straight away, but there is a passage in the Book of Revelation about the Saints in Heaven bringing the prayers of the just (people still on earth) to the four elders, so that the four elders can offer them to God.

Oh okay. You are referring to this passage, maybe? Rev 8:3-5: “Another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.” It is the prayers of the saints suffering upon the earth which ascend to the throne and which causes the angel to fill his censer with fire and throw it to the earth. Therefore, in this cycle of judgment, it is the prayers of Christ’s church which lead to the downfall of the city of man. Even while the beast persecutes God’s people and the city of man seeks to seduce and exploit them, God hears their cries and will come to avenge them. You have to understand this passage in the larger context of the seal judgments.

They also don’t have a Levitical priesthood, so they would not be able to offer bulls, in any case - but I think they assume themselves to be offering the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ on their altars, do they not?

No. Christ offers Himself on the altar of the cross. As a result of that sacrifice, our sins are forgiven. We receive this forgiveness in the Sacrament. It is not our work, it is God’s.

So, we will stop obeying Christ’s commandments when we get to Heaven?

Probably not

They are in Heaven, which itself is in the heart of every believer - which seems “omnipresent” to me. (Heaven is not a “place” as such; it is the state of being joined with the infinite and eternal God.) But they wouldn’t actually need to be omnipresent, any more than I need to be where you are, for us to be able to communicate.

Yes, they would. In order to hear millions of multiple prayers being offered to God. They would also, in many cases, need to be able to read people’s thoughts. Only God knows all that is going on all the time. In fact, there is a good passage in Isaiah that addresses this very topic. Isa. 63:16: For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

Why does Abraham not know him, nor Jacob acknowledge him? Because they’re both dead!

 

[TriuneUnity]

We don’t worship creatures, we worship only God.
Intercessory prayer is not worship and has been pointed out to you by Gamera, from the Bible on what St. James said, and you yourself said that St. Paul also said so, he did.

The statements of Paul and James DO show that prayer is worship…the prayer is being directed to God alone. I am not praying to someone else to pray for me. If I were to ring you in candles and bow before you and ask for your intercession, you should probably smack me.

 

[allhers]

Oh okay. You are referring to this passage, maybe? Rev 8:3-5: “Another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.” It is the prayers of the saints suffering upon the earth which ascend to the throne and which causes the angel to fill his censer with fire and throw it to the earth. Therefore, in this cycle of judgment, it is the prayers of Christ’s church which lead to the downfall of the city of man. Even while the beast persecutes God’s people and the city of man seeks to seduce and exploit them, God hears their cries and will come to avenge them. You have to understand this passage in the larger context of the seal judgments.

No. Christ offers Himself on the altar of the cross. As a result of that sacrifice, our sins are forgiven. We receive this forgiveness in the Sacrament. It is not our work, it is God’s.

Probably not

Yes, they would. In order to hear millions of multiple prayers being offered to God. They would also, in many cases, need to be able to read people’s thoughts. Only God knows all that is going on all the time. In fact, there is a good passage in Isaiah that addresses this very topic. Isa. 63:16: For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

Why does Abraham not know him, nor Jacob acknowledge him? Because they’re both dead!

Actually it says Were Abraham not to know us, nor Israel to acknowledge us

 

[allhers]

The statements of Paul and James DO show that prayer is worship…the prayer is being directed to God alone. I am not praying to someone else to pray for me. If I were to ring you in candles and bow before you and ask for your intercession, you should probably smack me.

I probably would, which just goes to show you right there that I am not a Saint in heaven.
I’d still pray for you though, and do.
Speaking of prayers, I’d appreciate some right about now, I have to get off of here, yesterday, I smacked my knee into my car door after I opened it, (obviously not enough) and I am in severe pain today and need to go do something besides sit here.)

 

[jmcrae]

Oh okay. You are referring to this passage, maybe? Rev 8:3-5: “Another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.” It is the prayers of the saints suffering upon the earth which ascend to the throne and which causes the angel to fill his censer with fire and throw it to the earth.

He is not God; how did he get these prayers?

No. Christ offers Himself on the altar of the cross. As a result of that sacrifice, our sins are forgiven. We receive this forgiveness in the Sacrament. It is not our work, it is God’s.

In the Passover Supper of the Lamb, he who does not eat of the Lamb’s flesh is not of Israel, right? (Exodus 12:43-ff) In the same way, if we do not eat and drink of the body and blood of Christ, as He commanded us to do in John 6:51-53.

Probably not

Then we will still pray for one another, still feed the hungry and heal the sick, etc., even when we are in Heaven, right? (And we will not lose the ability to do these things, either.)

Yes, they would. In order to hear millions of multiple prayers being offered to God. They would also, in many cases, need to be able to read people’s thoughts.

I don’t know of any reason why the Saints would be denied the ability to read thoughts, since some people on the earth are sometimes given this ability (St. Pio, for example, and St. John Vianny, for another). And, because of the fact that they exist in eternity, it is not unreasonable to speculate that they have an asynchronous method of accessing whatever communications may be directed their way.

Only God knows all that is going on all the time. In fact, there is a good passage in Isaiah that addresses this very topic. Isa. 63:16: For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

Why does Abraham not know him, nor Jacob acknowledge him? Because they’re both dead!

He is not saying that they don’t; he is saying, Even if they did not - in other words, his faith is not dependent on his ancestor’s faith; he has made his faith to be his own. But he is not saying that Abraham and Jacob do not know God, because there are many other passages (including statements from Jesus) that show the opposite.