Why the bible is most assuredly not a Catholic book,

[TriuneUnity]

He is not God; how did he get these prayers?

Apocalyptic imagery is not meant to make us think an angel is flying around collecting prayers. They rise before the throne because our prayers are accepted by heaven.

In the Passover Supper of the Lamb, he who does not eat of the Lamb’s flesh is not of Israel, right? (Exodus 12:43-ff) In the same way, if we do not eat and drink of the body and blood of Christ, as He commanded us to do in John 6:51-53.

Yes; but that doesn’t mean we are doing the sacrificing.

Then we will still pray for one another, still feed the hungry and heal the sick, etc., even when we are in Heaven, right? (And we will not lose the ability to do these things, either.)

No.

I don’t know of any reason why the Saints would be denied the ability to read thoughts, since some people on the earth are sometimes given this ability (St. Pio, for example, and St. John Vianny, for another). And, because of the fact that they exist in eternity, it is not unreasonable to speculate that they have an asynchronous method of accessing whatever communications may be directed their way.

I don’t think relying on claims of mystics makes for an argument of the omniscience of spirits in heaven.

He is not saying that they don’t; he is saying, Even if they did not - in other words, his faith is not dependent on his ancestor’s faith; he has made his faith to be his own. But he is not saying that Abraham and Jacob do not know God, because there are many other passages (including statements from Jesus) that show the opposite.

Where does he say even if?

 

[jmcrae]

Apocalyptic imagery is not meant to make us think an angel is flying around collecting prayers. They rise before the throne because our prayers are accepted by heaven.

Ah, how convenient - it’s a metaphor.

Yes; but that doesn’t mean we are doing the sacrificing.

Right. Rather, we are offering up Christ’s own Sacrifice.

I don’t think relying on claims of mystics makes for an argument of the omniscience of spirits in heaven.

I’m not arguing that they’re “omnicient.” Merely that they aren’t bound, gagged, nor have their ears stuffed up with cotton.

Where does he say even if?

In the context “though” means “even if.”

 

[TriuneUnity]

Ah, how convenient - it’s a metaphor.

The action of prayers going to God and the result of them are not metaphorical. The imagery, however, is. Unless you want to start taking bears coming out of the ocean as literalistic! Wouldn’t that make you a dispensationalist?

Right. Rather, we are offering up Christ’s own Sacrifice.

We are not doing anything. The action is solely God’s. Having said that, though, it is clear we are receiving the benefits of His sacrifice.

I’m not arguing that they’re “omnicient.” Merely that they aren’t bound, gagged, nor have their ears stuffed up with cotton.

I am not arguing that, either. They do pray for the Church on earth, but since they can’t “hear” any one particular member of the Church, they are not participating in a divine way.

In the context “though” means “even if.”

And can you establish that?

 

[PerryJ]

One body of Christ
The below bible versus show to me that all are one body of Christ both living and dead. They are not separated from us; therefore, asking them to pray for us is not against scripture. In fact intercessory prayers are supported and required by the faithful.

Death does not separate the family of God Rom 8: 38, 39 “For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”

God is the God of the living and the dead. Matt 22:32 “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Shows that angels and saints are witnesses to our individual activities Luke 15: 7 “I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.”

Shows that the saint and angel are witnesses and are cheering us forward. Heb 12:1 “And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us”

Scriptural support for intercessory prayer
Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5) but before this Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator.

1 Tim 2:1 “I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men”
God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? No, this does show that God wants us to work with him. This include prayers.
1 Cor 3:9 “For we are God’s fellow workers: you are God’s husbandry; you are God’s building.

Specific verses instructing us to do intercessory prayers.Matt 5:44 “But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:”

The dead interacting with the alive as we are one family Matt 27: 52-53 “And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.”

Mary intercedes with God for us, God could have started his ministry without Mary; however, chose to work with us and showed an example of intercessionJohn 2:5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

Both the living and the dead are part of Christ’s body and as such both have been instructed to perform intercessory prayers. These verses also show that the living and the dead have interacted by the grace of God.

 

[Always_For_Him]

I have some things for you to consider:

We ask our fellow parishoners to pray for our intentions. Have you ever had the congregation pray for you or anyone? If so, why? Why should you ask someone to pray for you if you can pray directly to God instead. Why would you even bother asking anyone to pray for anyone if each person can just pray to God instead? Why should I even bother asking them to pray for her?

Catholics believe that we do not cease to exist when we die, but that many of us will enjoy eternal life in heaven.

So, if these people do, in fact, continue to exist, why is it any different asking the deceased to pray for my intention than asking the living in my congregation to pray for my intention? It is the same thing.

Do you believe in the Communion of Saints? Are you sure you understand it? Do you believe that those who have died and are in heaven are no longer alive in Christ?

Catholics regard prayer as SO important, we ask EVERYONE in the heavens and on earth to pray with us and for us.

You think no one in heaven can hear you? Nothing is impossible with God. For example, Moses and Elijah appeared during the Transfiguration and were certainly aware of that event.

Wherever two are more are gathered, I am there." Our prayers are always more powerful when we pray with others. For non-Catholics, this means finding somebody to pray with and for us. When we ask a saint to pray for us, our prayer is joined to that of the saint. We know from scripture (the Wedding at Cana) that Jesus does not deny a prayer offered by His mother. What is important to remember is that God does answer prayer. Prayer is communication with God, in whatever way we choose to use it.

Where does the Bible say that we are NOT to pray to the saints to ask for their prayer and intercession? Where does God “teach in His written word” that we are NOT to pray to the saints to ask for their prayers and intercession? When we pray to Mary & the saints, we ask them to pray for us. Can you provide a verse that shows that we CAN’T pray through them, or that the saints in heaven AREN’T righteous? Can you provide a verse that says that they can’t hear our prayers?

(Rev. 5:8 & Rev. 8:3) - angels and saints in heaven do offer up our prayers.

(James 5:16) - "the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Is he no longer righteous because he is in heaven?

The Liturgy of St. James that we have the oldest intercessory prayers used in the Mass. How could anyone, seeing how Stephen died, NOT think that he had God’s ear! Paul probably asked his forgiveness for consenting to His death. He sure spent his whole life making reparation for it.

And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out and said, “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me.?” (Luke 1, 42)

Simeon’s prophecy to Mary, “and your own soul a sword will pierce” (Luke 2, 25) affirms her privileged participation in God’s plan of salvation.

Keeping with Sacred Tradition, the Church Fathers encouraged the faithful to turn to Mary for her intercession and assistance before God.

Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah during his transfiguration (Mt 17, 3; Mk 9, 4; Lk 9, 30). The lawgiver and the prophet were alive and well although deceased. And Matthew records that after Jesus had risen from the dead, “tombs were opened and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised…they entered the holy city and were seen by many” (Mt 27, 51-53). Their living souls were reunited with their bodies in the same way Lazarus had been raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul tells the Romans (8, 35-39) that death cannot separate the members of Christ’s mystical Body, that is the Church, and His love. We are branches on the vine which cannot be cut off from it even after death provided we bear good fruit and persevere until the end (Jn 15, 1-6). The faithful both in heaven and on earth are living members of God’s family. In Revelation (5:8) we find that the saints who have preceded us in heaven offer up intercessory prayer on our behalf. They form the great cloud of witnesses who surround us spoken of by Paul (Heb 12, 1). God hears the prayers of all the righteous members of Christ’s mystical body: those on heaven and on earth. And He desires that we pray for one another ( Jn 2, 5; 2 Cor 13, 7-9). “Now we know that God hears not sinners, but if a man may be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he will hear” (Jn 9, 31).

The first historic evidence of veneration of Mary in the life of the Church is found in the Roman catacombs. I think in the catacomb of St. Agnes there exists a frescoe of Mary: the ‘orans’, “the woman in prayer”. During the great persecutions against the early Church, Christians offered up their petitions and supplications to the Mother of God and the Mother of the Church, that she intercede on their behalf and thereby deliver them from danger. The ‘orans’ clearly indicates that Christians had invoked Mary for her intercession and help by the third century. One significant frescoe found in the catacomb of St. Agnes depicts Mary situated between Peter and Paul with her hands outstretched to them both. The two apostles together have symbolized the Church since earliest times. So this frescoe depicts Mary as Mother of the Church. Another frescoe depicts Mary holding the infant Jesus in her arms as he is adored by the Magi (Mary, Mother of God). Obviously the early Christians believed that Mary was alive in heaven together with her Divine Son, or else they wouldn’t have offered up their prayers to God through her mediation. Indifference towards the mother of our Lord and the rejection of the traditional belief that God has granted her intercessory power is a modern day reformed, fundamentalist Protestant phenomenon which has no connection with the historic and apostolic Christian faith whatsoever. (This particular paragraph was posted on another thread, and I added it to my notes.)

It would appear that this particular devotion to Mary had already existed by the time Luke wrote his gospel.

I (with the help of many other people) have compiled a listing of dozens and dozens of relevant Biblical quotes. There are dozens and dozens of relevant quotes from the Early Church Fathers that will teach the same beliefs. I will post those if you need them, if you don’t have time to study the ECF’s. I know that most Protestants are convinced that the Bible is the sole infallible guide to Christianity. That is a great place to begin, but Sacred Tradition holds EQUAL weight, and that is ignored by non-Catholics. There is Biblical evidence for intercessory prayer, in the same way that the Trinity is not specifically mentioned by scripture, but strongly implied.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriuneUnity
I haven’t seen a single attempt to show that the apostles believed in intercession with the dead in Christ. **

answer me this. Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and the apostles. why do you think there is if they were already dead and acording to you they have no merits or powers and cannot hear us? and for what purpose?

 

[Always_For_Him]

You wanted quotes and verses, here are some:

New Testament

Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.

Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.

Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.

Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.

Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.

2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.

2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.

2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ’s mediation.

Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.

Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.

Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?

Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians’ earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Always_For_Him]

continued…

Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.

Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.

Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn’t Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.

1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.

1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says “pray constantly.” If Jesus’ role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?

1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.

2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ’s mediation because Christ desires this.

2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.

1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.

2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”

Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon’s intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.

Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”

Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.

James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.

James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.

James 5:17-18 - James refers to God’s response to Elijah’s fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.

1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.

1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.

3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius’ health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

 

[distracted]

We are not to address our prayers to anyone but God himself.

you talk to your relatives, don’t you? Is that worship? Praying to a saint, one who has overcome the devil and endeed up in Heaven, is the same basic thing as talking to someone on Earth you love… i don’t see much difference…

Prayer by definition is an act of worship.

Hm… not by my definition… Where does your definition come from?

Since worship is reserved for God, we are not to worship fellow creatures (Revelation 19:10). Thus, anything involving intercession in heaven is a form of worship and hence, idolatry. (Whether you know it or not.)

Well, if you had started off the right premise, i would agree with your conclusion… but you didn’t because talking to a saint is not worship…

We have no command of God in Scripture to ask those who are in heaven to pray for us,

Catholics are not required to talk to the saints…

nor do we have any promise of God that people in heaven can hear our prayers.

we have no promise that they cannot either… In fact, if you read any Catholic books on the subject, you would find evidence to the contrary.

believe that the saints in heaven have the ability to hear the prayers of people all over the world is to ascribe to them power and abilities that belong to God alone.

If God gives someone power, s/he has that power… Simple. God gives power to his creatures… all of us… but especially those who died for him (etc)… those in Heaven have even more power… & it is nice to communicate with someone who also knows waht it is like to be human, weak, sinful, etc… yet striving for Jesus & His holy way…

 

[Always_For_Him]

Old Testament

Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham’s intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.

Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.

Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God’s response to Moses’ saintly intercession.

1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.

2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God’s holy habitation in heaven and were answered.

Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.

Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.

Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.

Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.

Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.

Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.

Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah’s lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.

Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people’s ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.

Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.

Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.

Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.

Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

We are not to address our prayers to anyone but God himself. Prayer by definition is an act of worship. Since worship is reserved for God, we are not to worship fellow creatures (Revelation 19:10). Thus, anything involving intercession in heaven is a form of worship and hence, idolatry. (Whether you know it or not.)

As far as subjectivity goes I don’t honestly believe that people are confused about what religious worship is.

We have no command of God in Scripture to ask those who are in heaven to pray for us, nor do we have any promise of God that people in heaven can hear our prayers. In fact, to believe that the saints in heaven have the ability to hear the prayers of people all over the world is to ascribe to them power and abilities that belong to God alone.

Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

Prayer
Prayer\ (?; 277), n. [OE. preiere, OF. preiere, F. pri[`e]re, fr. L. precarius obtained by prayer, fr. precari to pray. See Pray, v. i.]

1. The act of praying, or of asking a favor; earnest request or entreaty; hence, a petition or memorial addressed to a court or a legislative body. “Their meek preyere.” --Chaucer
2. The act of addressing supplication to a divinity, especially to the true God; the offering of adoration, confession, supplication, and thanksgiving to the Supreme Being; as, public prayer; secret prayer.

To pray is to petition. to ask. though in the laziness of our modern language it have been regulated to talking to God. But in times past It was used in speech to other people .

A lady may say something along the line of " I pray you not do that sir" .

As to intersession. we intercede with God for people every day if we pray for them. We can ask people to intercede for us with God. And we know pretty well that those that have died are alive in in heaven in Christ. So why and were would it be wrong to ask for their prayers as well? I know of no one that gives the Saints to do anything more that pray for us.

We know also that God has sent Angels to carry his message or do his bidding as well as from Mose and Elijah appearance with Christ in the Transfiguration those that have died are not unable to travel and speak with the Living at God will.

We also know that know one is commanded to ask for the intercession of the Saints nor the have statues and Icons. At the same time this are not forbidden either.

 

[Gamera]

To pray is to petition. to ask. though in the laziness of our modern language it have been regulated to talking to God. But in times past It was used in speech to other people …

“Pray” still means ordinary person-to-person communication in some circles. Older legal pleading forms still use it like this: “Plaintiff prays to the court to grant the relief set forth herein.” By Triune Unity’s standard, that means the plaintiff worships the judge. But of course, that isn’t the case: “pray” here is used correctly, meaning “commnunicate.” Only by re-defining the verb “pray” can anyone argue that prayer equals worship.

 

[anthony022071]

It is the prayers of the saints suffering upon the earth which ascend to the throne and which causes the angel to fill his censer with fire and throw it to the earth. Therefore, in this cycle of judgment, it is the prayers of Christ’s church which lead to the downfall of the city of man. Even while the beast persecutes God’s people and the city of man seeks to seduce and exploit them, God hears their cries and will come to avenge them. You have to understand this passage in the larger context of the seal judgments.

It does not say the saints on earth as opposed to saints in heaven. Revelations 5,8 mentions 24 ancients,or elders. These can only be saints who have risen from the dead.

Revelations 5,8
“And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.”

The Letter to the Hebrews mentions the Church of the firstborn and the spirits of the just made perfect,who are in the city of God.

Hebrews 12,22-23
“But you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,”

Yes, they would. In order to hear millions of multiple prayers being offered to God. They would also, in many cases, need to be able to read people’s thoughts.

They can,because they are in eternity with God,and so their perception is not limited by time and space in the way that our perceprtion is.

Only God knows all that is going on all the time. In fact, there is a good passage in Isaiah that addresses this very topic. Isa. 63:16: For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

The psalmist means that Abraham and Israel did not acknowledge the Jews because of the faithlessness of the Jews.

Why does Abraham not know him, nor Jacob acknowledge him? Because they’re both dead!

Jesus says they are living.

Mark 12,26-27
“And as concerning the dead that they rise again have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.”

 

[mercygate]

In fact, there is a good passage in Isaiah that addresses this very topic. Isa. 63:16: For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

Why does Abraham not know him, nor Jacob acknowledge him? Because they’re both dead!

Huh? Who are you, and what have you done with my learned friend, TriuneUnity?

This passage is not about the intercession of the Communion of Saints. It is about the tragedy of the Divided Kingdom. “Abraham” is not “Father Abraham” and “Jacob [Israel]” is not Mr. Patriarch Jacob. These are synechdoche for the tribes of Israel that reject Judah and have set up alternate shrines in the North and are on their way to becoming “Samaria.”

 

[ROBIN97]

“to pray” still means ordinary person-to-person communication in some circles. Older legal pleading forms still use it like this: “Plaintiff prays to the court to grant the relief set forth herein.” By Triune Unity’s standard, that means the plaintiff worships the judge. But of course, that isn’t the case: “pray” here is used correctly, meaning “communicate.” Only by re-defining the verb “pray” can anyone argue that prayer equals worship.

The further the protestant religions got away (in time) from the Catholic Church, the more they lost the original faith of Christianity - Catholicism.

This was intensional. They even went so far as to redefine religious terms.

Prayer commonly meant “to ask” as well as “to worship” as has been explained many times before. If I say “Pray for me” to a friend or even a stranger, I don’t mean “worship” for me. I mean simply, Ask (God) to shed His Grace on me. We ask the same of the Saints in heaven. We ask them “to Pray” for us. To Add their prayers to ours. Protestants might call this a Prayer Circle.

The Saints in heaven certainly are more alive “in God” than any of us on the earth. To deny it is to deny Christs Mercy and His Promises.

Most Protestants have to believe otherwise. They prefer to deny that “The Prayers of a righteous man availeth much”. Who is more righteous among common man than a Saint or Angel in heaven? Jesus said we would become like him - in heaven. Saints are Not deaf to our prayers. Catholic Miracles attest to this century after century. Miracles never stopped with the death of the last apostle -John. As they declare. However, they have no Biblical basis to say this in reality nor in Holy Tradition, if they believed in it. They believe it because some man said so because he wanted them to believe it. Sheep in Wolves Clothing I think.

Protestants prefer to deny their eyes and ears - Fatima, Lourdes, Etc. Etc. Etc. Even after 20 Centuries of Obvious miracles. The wind shifting 180 degrees in a matter of minutes (Laponta) and saving Christian Europe ( and the Bible too) from the flames and conquest of 150 Turkish (Muslim) ships against the Spanish Armada - The last Crusade -1492- the year Columbus discovered America. Denial is not Biblical. It is the Blind leading the Blind ( 15$ Certified Preachers) in many cases.

We believe in the Communion of Saints. Most real Christians have it in their Creed. The original Protestants had it. The protestants who deny Prayer to Saints, are really denying this creed and the power of being a part of the great fellowship that we are all joined in as Christians. Even they can join in. Most are truly Christians even if in a fettered way with only have a couple of the sacraments still allowed. Baptism, Marriage, etc. The Communion of Saints is still Alive. It is foolish to deny it.

JW’s go so far as to say that No one is in Heaven. They say the dead are simply dirt. These and others who deny that the Saints in heaven are truly alive - even more so than us, are cutting off their nose to spite their face - so to speak. Amazing.

Why do they do this? They simply must. In order to deny that Real and Holy Miracles are still happening - if not in the protestant churches - than in the Membership of the Catholic Church. To deny that God still smiles on His Church even if they have been taught to hate and despise it and to believe in easy assertions and outright lies. And to spit on Christs Church as Christ was spat on for many of the same reasons. That is what they must deny. Or admit that they have been sickeningly wrong. They would have to admit they are out side of Christ’s Church. That they deny Him just as certainly as Peter did on the night of his Crucifixion.

But, Peter pushed down his blind fear. Peter swallowed his shameful pride and lack of faith. Peter confessed his sins, and picked up his Cross and Followed Him again. Peter is now a real Living Saint. And we can pray to him to help us when we fall. Even if we should be protestant.
Robin

 

[distracted]

The further the protestant religions got away (in time) from the Catholic Church, the more they lost the original faith of Christianity - Catholicism.

This was intensional. They even went so far as to redefine religious terms.

Prayer commonly meant “to ask” as well as “to worship” as has been explained many times before. If I say “Pray for me” to a friend or even a stranger, I don’t mean “worship” for me. I mean simply, Ask (God) to shed His Grace on me. We ask the same of the Saints in heaven. We ask them “to Pray” for us. To Add their prayers to ours. Protestants might call this a Prayer Circle.

The Saints in heaven certainly are more alive “in God” than any of us on the earth. To deny it is to deny Christs Mercy and His Promises.

Most Protestants have to believe otherwise. They prefer to deny that “The Prayers of a righteous man availeth much”. Who is more righteous among common man than a Saint or Angel in heaven? Jesus said we would become like him - in heaven. Saints are Not deaf to our prayers. Catholic Miracles attest to this century after century. Miracles never stopped with the death of the last apostle -John. As they declare. However, they have no Biblical basis to say this in reality nor in Holy Tradition, if they believed in it. They believe it because some man said so because he wanted them to believe it. Sheep in Wolves Clothing I think.

Protestants prefer to deny their eyes and ears - Fatima, Lourdes, Etc. Etc. Etc. Even after 20 Centuries of Obvious miracles. The wind shifting 180 degrees in a matter of minutes (Laponta) and saving Christian Europe ( and the Bible too) from the flames and conquest of 150 Turkish (Muslim) ships against the Spanish Armada - The last Crusade -1492- the year Columbus discovered America. Denial is not Biblical. It is the Blind leading the Blind ( 15$ Certified Preachers) in many cases.

We believe in the Communion of Saints. Most real Christians have it in their Creed. The original Protestants had it. The protestants who deny Prayer to Saints, are really denying this creed and the power of being a part of the great fellowship that we are all joined in as Christians. Even they can join in. Most are truly Christians even if in a fettered way with only have a couple of the sacraments still allowed. Baptism, Marriage, etc. The Communion of Saints is still Alive. It is foolish to deny it.

JW’s go so far as to say that No one is in Heaven. They say the dead are simply dirt. These and others who deny that the Saints in heaven are truly alive - even more so than us, are cutting off their nose to spite their face - so to speak. Amazing.

Why do they do this? They simply must. In order to deny that Real and Holy Miracles are still happening - if not in the protestant churches - than in the Membership of the Catholic Church. To deny that God still smiles on His Church even if they have been taught to hate and despise it and to believe in easy assertions and outright lies. And to spit on Christs Church as Christ was spat on for many of the same reasons. That is what they must deny. Or admit that they have been sickeningly wrong. They would have to admit they are out side of Christ’s Church. That they deny Him just as certainly as Peter did on the night of his Crucifixion.

But, Peter pushed down his blind fear. Peter swallowed his shameful pride and lack of faith. Peter confessed his sins, and picked up his Cross and Followed Him again. Peter is now a real Living Saint. And we can pray to him to help us when we fall. Even if we should be protestant.
Robin

:clapping: Thank you!! :clapping:

I especially appreciated the part about non-Catholics spitting on the Church as Christ was once spit on… (What do i mean Once?? He is spit on over & over - because his followers are…).

I know of Protestants who have no argument against any of the Catholic points i bring up, yet they reject the Church - and reject me. I have lost all my “friends” & some family members because of my Catholicism… but i figure they were never friends in the 1st place. To me, a friend is forever… so anyway… i feel that they are, indeed, spitting on Christ… As one saint said The Church is Jesus…

 

[jailbelle]

Salvation of the whole world comes from the Jews. In the covenant with King David .David was promised that his son’s kingdom would include the whole world. A new and eternal covenant was then given to us through Jesus. The old covenant with the Hebrews had fulfillment in Jesus.

 

[PerryJ]

Salvation of the whole world comes from the Jews. In the covenant with King David .David was promised that his son’s kingdom would include the whole world. A new and eternal covenant was then given to us through Jesus. The old covenant with the Hebrews had fulfillment in Jesus.

I agree.

Do you believe the Bible is a Catholic book?

 

[elts1956]

I don’t think this claim is historically accurate. The Bible is neither a Catholic or a Jewish book, if we mean the Bible was made or commissioned by the Catholic Church or the Jews as a compendium of their doctrines and beliefs. The Old Testament is a set of writings the Jews decided, through a slow process of tradition and selection, represented the authentic revelation of God and his will to their people over history. The New Testament is a series of writings that the Christian Churches agreed represented both their experience of God and also was an authentic revelation of God and his will for the Christian people.

The Catholic Church put it together. Later denominations took what they wanted from it.

 

[elts1956]

I don’t think this claim is historically accurate. The Bible is neither a Catholic or a Jewish book, if we mean the Bible was made or commissioned by the Catholic Church or the Jews as a compendium of their doctrines and beliefs. The Old Testament is a set of writings the Jews decided, through a slow process of tradition and selection, represented the authentic revelation of God and his will to their people over history. The New Testament is a series of writings that the Christian Churches agreed represented both their experience of God and also was an authentic revelation of God and his will for the Christian people.

Sirac is wonderful at funerals, not that that is happy time, unless you see funerals like Catholics do

How do we Catholics see funerals? Most of the ones I have attended have not been happy times???