Why the big fuss over homosexuality?

[Werner]

JCPhoenix:

I have and have had many friends who practice a homosexual lifestyle.

I’'ve never seen such sad, empty-shell people in my life. They crusade for “understanding” yet they have no interest in understanding beliefs outside their own world. They really struggle, and contrary to what they say, their struggles are internal.

I love each and every one of them. I want them to experience the love of Christ and to be with him eternally in heaven.

But they are angry. They are defensive, and I find myself walking on eggshells around them.

I am female, and was a firefighter for awhile. There was a women’s association…but I was to learn that if I wasn’t a lesbian, then I wasn’t welcome. Yet as a Christian, I can say they will always be welcome in the Lord’s home.

I don’t choose to define my entire being by my reproductive organs. This is what practicing homosexuals do.

They don’t see that they are valuable human beings, but rather debase themselves by a definition ordained by satan. Who really wants to be identified by what they do between the sheets?

Don’t come to a Catholic forum and attack our faith. If you choose to do so you may find yourself at an RCIA class!

I will pray for you, and I can guarantee I am not the only one.

Oh, come on.
I know fellow Catholics who are sad and empty shells as well.
They crusade for their moral believes, try to shove them down everybody’s throat, they are angry, they are defensive, they see satan, libearsl and “homosexual agendas” in each and everybody who doesn’t share their very believes.
Their struggles are internal.
But i’m also sure the Lord will wellcome them as well…
There are zealots everywhere.
The improtant thing is to try not to become one yourself!

Werner

 

[mlchance]

Werner:

leaving religion totaly out and only looking at nature humans are meant by nature like quite a lot of animals…

I think you only think you understand what natural law is. Natural law doesn’t mean “only looking at nature” in order to draw spurious comparisons between the way animals act and the way human beings act.

When someone says “Homosexuality violates natural law,” what they mean is “Homosexuality is contrary to human nature.” IOW, it means “Homosexual activity uses human sexuality in a way that is contrary to its legitimate ends.” This is not a religious statement; it is a philosophical one.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[TheGarg]

teenagethinker:

What is the big deal with homosexuality?

It is a moral and mental affliction, that aside from why its wrong in the Christian view, It is not natural in any way.
It serves no purpose in the natural order of things.

teenagethinker:

How does it hurt you?

It is the cause of bigger problems such as HIV, AIDS, STD in general, moral decay, promotes unhealthy family values and situations, and most imortantly can lead to Damnation of my fellow people if no kept chaste and repentant.

teenagethinker:

Not all people believe in the Xian God, who are you to tell them there wrong about the way they live?
.

The majority, that’s who. Who are practicing homosexuals to tell us it[practicing homosexuality] is OK.
I certainly won’t teach my son that it is ok, but I will teach him to Love his fellow Man and encourage him to chasteness and repentance. Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin.

Just some thoughts…
By the way, I am not familiar with the “Xian” God, maybe that has something to do with the pagan holiday of “Xmas” that i hear about occasionally. LOL

 

[Werner]

mlchance:

I think you only think you understand what natural law is. Natural law doesn’t mean “only looking at nature” in order to draw spurious comparisons between the way animals act and the way human beings act.

When someone says “Homosexuality violates natural law,” what they mean is “Homosexuality is contrary to human nature.” IOW, it means “Homosexual activity uses human sexuality in a way that is contrary to its legitimate ends.” This is not a religious statement; it is a philosophical one.

– Mark L. Chance.

Well, the original poster claimed that just lokking at nature must lead to the realization that HS is wrong, and that is just nonsense.

I also claim that the sentence “Homosexuality is contrary to human nature” is nonsense.

For a woman it is completely natural to nurse a child, for a man it isn’t. So tell me now, is nursing “contrary to human nature?”

For most humans homosexual acts are against their nature because they are heterosexuals.

But there are homosexual humans and for them heterosexual activity would be “contrary to (their) human nature”.

Now you can say HS is a sin, against God’s laws, and whatever, but it is nonsense to say it is “against human nature” because otherwise you could say as well heterosexual acts are against human nature (because for some they are)

Werner

 

[TheGarg]

Werner:

Well, the original poster claimed that just lokking at nature must lead to the realization that HS is wrong, and that is just nonsense.

I also claim that the sentence “Homosexuality is contrary to human nature” is nonsense.

For a woman it is completely natural to nurse a child, for a man it isn’t. So tell me now, is nursing “contrary to human nature?”

For most humans homosexual acts are against their nature because they are heterosexuals.

But there are homosexual humans and for them heterosexual activity would be “contrary to (their) human nature”.

Now you can say HS is a sin, against God’s laws, and whatever, but it is nonsense to say it is “against human nature” because otherwise you could say as well heterosexual acts are against human nature (because for some they are)

Werner

you need to differentiate between “the stautus Quo” , or the “norm” per sey, and the “freaks of nature”, which is what practicing homosexuals are. they are in the severe minority, why? Because it is not natural behavior.

How is it you call yourself Catholic werner? every time i see you post you are standing up for the sin that the sinner is committing? you dont seem to be pro “God’s Word”. Just curious…

Peace of the Lord be with you all

 

[mlchance]

Werner:

Now you can say HS is a sin, against God’s laws, and whatever, but it is nonsense to say it is “against human nature” because otherwise you could say as well heterosexual acts are against human nature (because for some they are)

This only further reinforces my point that you don’t understand the idea of natural law. Human nature doesn’t vary from person to person, or even from past to future. Human nature is a constant, regardless of time, place, or individual. By nature, human beings are supposed to be heterosexual, and all sexual activity is supposed to oriented in such a way. It is because of this that it can be accurately said that homogenital activity is contrary to natural law.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Werner]

mlchance:

This only further reinforces my point that you don’t understand the idea of natural law. Human nature doesn’t vary from person to person, or even from past to future. Human nature is a constant, regardless of time, place, or individual. By nature, human beings are supposed to be heterosexual, and all sexual activity is supposed to oriented in such a way. It is because of this that it can be accurately said that homogenital activity is contrary to natural law.

– Mark L. Chance.

And i claim this to be nonsense.
That doesn’t have to do anything with sin, it is completely natural for a man to have sex with more than one woman, but it would be a sin to do so.
So where is the need to construct an offense against nature that doesn’t exist?

Werner

 

[Werner]

Werner:

That doesn’t have to do anything with sin, it is completely natural for a man to have sex with more than one woman, but it would be a sin to do so.

That was a bit misunderandable.
What i wanted to say is that something can (according to church teaching) completely natural and a sin nevertheless

So if somebody says HS is sinful, ok, i respect that.
But to claim it is unnatural is nonsense.

Werner

 

[puzzleannie]

teenagethinker:

one can say that homosexuality is a form of population control. Can they not? Vincent, is sexuality more linked to procreation or pleasure in today’s society? Birth control takes the point out of procreation, so why even have sex other than it is a pleasurable experience and that it makes a special “bond” between you and your partner? Human dignity is not a concrete thing, your concept of dignity may be radically different than anothers. And GoodKnight, why don’t you adopt a new state of mind, maybe one that actually answers questions?

you are quite right, teenperson, that homosexuality is a form of population control (which from a Catholic point of view is a bad thing) because in countries where this lifestyle has been normalized and glorified, populatio is shrinking to dangerous levels.

Birth control takes the point out of procreation and sex–absolutely right, you don’t need to read a Bible to understand that the purpose of sex is procreation, and it is pleasurable because most things good for the species are pleasurable (all though not all pleasures are good for the species). All species are oriented toward procreation and species preservation, that is simple biology. Read a good biology book or observe any well regulated farm or jungle. BC takes the whole point out of sex and reduces it to mere momentary impulse gratification, which barely qualifies as pleasure, and eliminates the unitive and procreative purposes of sex. Takes all the joy out of sex.

sex always creates a bond, that is its nature, but the bond becomes slavery without the committed love relationship of marriage and family, the building block of all societies since the world began. In every culture where family, marriage and sexuality was degraded (Roman being the star example) the society and culture crumbled when beset from threats from outside.

where you are wrong is in saying human dignity is not a concrete concept, and is dependent only on opinion and cultural mores. If it is not a concrete concept, and if it depends only on the prevailing culture then it can be denied on a whim at any time, place and circumstance by the ruling culture or government. That is why abortion is such a threat to human diginity, because the right to life is dependent on the whim of others. Which in law means none of us enjoys any protection or dignity in a society that allows abortion.

that is also why homosexual unions elevated to the civic and cultural level of marriage are wrong, because they deny the very basis and reason for marriage and family. Marriage, as described in the Creation accounts in Genesis and as defended by the Catholic Church, is the foundation of society, the protecter of children, the progenitor of children and renewal of society, and the mirror of the relationship between God and humankind. Degrade marriage and you degrade human dignity, replacing desire for true union with another as an icon of union with God, with bestial posturing and pleasure seeking.

Homosexual orientation is a cross and a cause for empathy, love and support. Homosexual activity, especially embracing the gay lifestyle, is degrading in the extreme, narcissistic, promiscuous and abusive and denies all aspects of human nature and identity except sexual expression, and subordinates all human relationships to conformity with the gay subcultural norms.

The response to homosexuals in society and the church? love, acceptance of their need for intimacy, but tolerance of anti-social behavior and self-destructive lifestyles? no, never. that is not love. Would it be love if I encouraged you to continue smoking, drinking and taking drugs because you had a craving for them and told me you felt better when you take them?

 

[cnderella03]

Teenage thinker:
From what I have read in the Bible, Homosexuality is one of the perversions that came with sin. I am not Catholic, yet I do believe that homosexuality is wrong.
But this is not the reason I responded. I have been reading some of the responses that were posted and one person stood out in particular.

GOODKNIGHT:
don’t you think that as a Christian and a follower of God, you should be more willing to teach a person rather than to ridicule them. Who are you to say that teenage thinker was not sincere in their question. What if teenage thinker is really on a quest for the truth? Would it not be the responsibility as a follower of God to help them to the best of your ability.
**And if teenage thinker was trying to cause trouble, which i doubt, then why not have a sincere answer instead of adding fuel to the fire. **

 

[Lisa_N]

Werner:

That was a bit misunderandable.
What i wanted to say is that something can (according to church teaching) completely natural and a sin nevertheless

So if somebody says HS is sinful, ok, i respect that.
But to claim it is unnatural is nonsense.

Werner

Heavens, Werner when you make a totally unsubstantiated comment like that, I wonder if you are interested in a discussion or simply stirring the pot.

Homosexuality is abnormal behavior. It does not occur in nature EXCEPT in times of great stress or other unnatural situations. “Excess” males of certain species will band together but will NOT engage in sexual activity. That humans do engage in this behavior doesn’t mean it’s normal. There is simply no evidence that it is and plenty of evidence that it is not only abnormal but physically and mentally destructive.

One of my high school classmates is a forensic detective for sex crimes in this state. She said there is literally no end to the strange ways people get sexual kicks. There are people who have sexual relations with corpses, human and animal. There are people who are into near axphixiation to get their kicks. There are people who introduce all sorts of material into their body cavities for purposes of sexual pleasure. That some nut has decided it would be fun to have intercourse with a dead deer does not make it normal simply because it is physically possible.

I’d really like to know the source of your statement since I’ve not seen any evidence that homosexuality is normal UNLESS you are simply a total relativist who thinks normal is an individual based determination, i.e. it’s normal for ME therefore it’s normal.

Lisa N

 

[Vincent]

Werner:

leaving religion totaly out and only looking at nature humans are meant by nature like quite a lot of animals: Men should live with men and women should live with women, once a year men should meet women and mate with them, then leave them alone until next year, because men and women don’t really fit, don’t you think?

Human nature is rational. Therefore, to act in accord with human nature is to act rationally. We are acting rationally insofar as we are are living in conformity to what is. It is in this moral context that homosexuality is called “unnatural”. It has nothing to do with “what the animals do.”

 

[Timidity]

Werner:

Well the point is, the belief doesn’t hurt anybody, but when some try to make their belief the law of the land iot surely hurts others who don’t share those believes.

So you agree that the homosexual lobby, by trying to change the status quo and make their beliefs the law of the land, is hurting the rest of the country?

 

[mlchance]

Werner:

And i claim this to be nonsense.

If you actually understood natural law philosophy, perhaps your claims would be more sensible and substantive. As it is, you are claiming natural law philosophy to be nonsense despite the fact that you don’t understand it. IOW, you aren’t qualified to make the claim.

For example, I know virtually nothing about internal combustion engines. It would be ludicrous for me to lean over the shoulder of a qualified mechanic and boldly proclaim that his use of this or that tool on this or that piece of machinery was nonsensical. The qualified mechanic would be justified in dismissing my claim as being uninformed (at best).

Likewise with you and natural law. You don’t know what you’re talking about regarding natural law; therefore, you have nothing substantive to say.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[fix]

Vincent:

Human nature is rational. Therefore, to act in accord with human nature is to act rationally. We are acting rationally insofar as we are are living in conformity to what is. It is in this moral context that homosexuality is called “unnatural”. It has nothing to do with “what the animals do.”

Good explaination. Is it fair to say that natural law is the moral law that each human knows innately? It is not instinct, but knowledge that we are all born with, correct? As some have said it is the moral law written on our hearts.

 

[AmyS]

Werner:

leaving religion totaly out and only looking at nature humans are meant by nature like quite a lot of animals: Men should live with men and women should live with women, once a year men should meet women and mate with them, then leave them alone until next year, because men and women don’t really fit, don’t you think?

I know this is a joke… But, humans and dolphins are the only two speices from my knowledge that have sex for pleasure. Other animals have sex for reproduction purpose…

 

[mercygate]

fix:

Is it fair to say that natural law is the moral law that each human knows innately? It is not instinct, but knowledge that we are all born with, correct? As some have said it is the moral law written on our hearts.

Perhaps we are not born with it but we discern it. As for “written on our hearts” – ya gotta be able (and willing!) to read!

 

[AmyS]

Lisa N:

Heavens, Werner when you make a totally unsubstantiated comment like that, I wonder if you are interested in a discussion or simply stirring the pot.

Homosexuality is abnormal behavior. It does not occur in nature EXCEPT in times of great stress or other unnatural situations. “Excess” males of certain species will band together but will NOT engage in sexual activity. That humans do engage in this behavior doesn’t mean it’s normal. There is simply no evidence that it is and plenty of evidence that it is not only abnormal but physically and mentally destructive.

One of my high school classmates is a forensic detective for sex crimes in this state. She said there is literally no end to the strange ways people get sexual kicks. There are people who have sexual relations with corpses, human and animal. There are people who are into near axphixiation to get their kicks. There are people who introduce all sorts of material into their body cavities for purposes of sexual pleasure. That some nut has decided it would be fun to have intercourse with a dead deer does not make it normal simply because it is physically possible.

I’d really like to know the source of your statement since I’ve not seen any evidence that homosexuality is normal UNLESS you are simply a total relativist who thinks normal is an individual based determination, i.e. it’s normal for ME therefore it’s normal.

Lisa N

Great post… It is a slippery slope…

And, even Good Catholics/Christans have urges… They just do all they can to control them. That is another reason why we can say what we want about it.

 

[GoodKnight1443]

cnderella03:

GOODKNIGHT:
don’t you think that as a Christian and a follower of God, you should be more willing to teach a person rather than to ridicule them. Who are you to say that teenage thinker was not sincere in their question. What if teenage thinker is really on a quest for the truth? Would it not be the responsibility as a follower of God to help them to the best of your ability.
**And if teenage thinker was trying to cause trouble, which i doubt, then why not have a sincere answer instead of adding fuel to the fire. **

cnderella03, bless you for your good nature. I am a tad more cynical and most likely much older than you. I have been around the internet newsgroup/forum block many times and sadly I smelled a rat here with teenagethinker and his/her middle of the night hit and run posts. Take some time and read his/her other posts. Doesn’t it strike you odd that he/she chose to use the term “Xian God” which is used by Atheists, etc when referring to The God of Abraham, the God of Christianity, Judasim and Islam? How about his/her post in another thread where he/she equates being Pro-life as being pro battered children? That is troling in my book. If the question in this thread was sincere it would have been worded much less antagonistically.

 

[Vincent]

fix:

Good explaination. Is it fair to say that natural law is the moral law that each human knows innately? It is not instinct, but knowledge that we are all born with, correct? As some have said it is the moral law written on our hearts.

I guess we could say that we’re born with “it” insofar as the “it” is the rational faculty that’s proper to the human species. Human nature is ordered in a certain way and we use reason to discover this order. That’s probably as close as I would get with the word “innate”.