Why the Church Should Honor & Protect the Traditional Liturgy

[Senecus]

Here is a link to a very short example of the beautiful and holy traditional liturgical “Gloria in Excelsis with Salutation” . . note that this version includes the revised Catholic response.

It’s kind of sad of many of our Catholic, Anglican & Lutheran liturgies and become so modernized and consequently, . . . . oh so blah . . . . . kind of like my Mom’s 1989 Oldsmobile…

Here’s the link - - worth listening to imho:

media.lcms.org/worship/divineservice/a/30DS3-GloriaInExcelsis&Salutation.mp3

 

[MarkThompson]

Here is a link to a very short example of the beautiful and holy traditional liturgical “Gloria in Excelsis with Salutation” . . note that this version includes the revised Catholic response.

Just so you know, this is not for Catholic worship. The new translations will not use thee/thou or any of the other Elizabethan-era English you hear in this recording, so this is unusable for us and was obviously intended for some other church. I would have guessed that it was for Anglicans/Episcopalians, but since it is on lcms.org I suppose it must be for high-church Lutherans. Sorry.

 

[Senecus]

Yes . . . . the revised response to “the Lord be with you” will not use the thees and thous - but the words “and with thy (or Your) Spirit” will take the place of the current “and also with you”.

But the point of this thread was not who it’s intended for (as the Gloria is almost exactly the same in RCC, Lutheran, Anglican services (those that use the Western rites). . . . the point again is the reverence and beauty of these historical constructions.

By the way, Catholics still use many thees and thous also, as in the Hail Mary, the Our Father etc., so why be parochial over something like that . . . ?

 

[MarkThompson]

Yes . . . . the revised response to “the Lord be with you” will not use the thees and thous - but the words “and with thy (or Your) Spirit” will take the place of the current “and also with you”.

But the point of this thread was not who it’s intended for (as the Gloria is almost exactly the same in RCC, Lutheran, Anglican services (those that use the Western rites). . . . the point again is the reverence and beauty of these historical constructions.

By the way, Catholics still use many thees and thous also, as in the Hail Mary etc., so why be parochial over something like that . . . ?

Well, you said that the recording you linked to “includes the revised Catholic response.” I just wanted to let you know that it doesn’t. There are a lot of mistaken impressions about the new translations floating around, from “Latin will be required now” to “It’ll have thee’s and thou’s.”

Personally, I find the setting a little bland and, in this recording, I find the organ far too aggressive. It’s also got a bit of that Mighty Fortress Lutheran flavor. In contrast, here’s a new setting of the Mass, available in Latin and the revised English, which I think is a great model of the sort of thing that can and should be done in the coming future. Give it a listen, see what you think.

 

[Senecus]

Thanks Mark,

I’ve saved your link as a bookmark in my expanding collection of traditional Christian music. I like the new compositions as well. My personal favorite liturgical music probably comes mostly from the Orthodox Church, where the Kyrie, Responses, etc., are A capella.

Here is an example of the Orthodox Kyrie Eleison: youtube.com/watch?v=PEHJY0T9RsQ

As a side note about “A Mighty Fortress” - - the senior organist at the Sistine Chapel would give a recital at a large Lutheran church here in Omaha every couple of years, and I recall he said the Holy Father requested that hymn, (although he apparently had a special fondness for Bach). We also recently sang it at a recent mass - - the message here being music transcends denominations, being a special gift from God.

Best Regards

Greg

 

[OraLabora]

My personal favorite liturgical music probably comes mostly from the Orthodox Church, where the Kyrie, Responses, etc., are A capella.

Gregorian chant has too also been traditionally sung a cappella. Our small choir does it a cappella, and the abbey to which I am affiliated also chants a cappella.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Yes . . . . the revised response to “the Lord be with you” will not use the thees and thous - but the words “and with thy (or Your) Spirit” will take the place of the current “and also with you”.

But the point of this thread was not who it’s intended for (as the Gloria is almost exactly the same in RCC, Lutheran, Anglican services (those that use the Western rites). . . . the point again is the reverence and beauty of these historical constructions.

By the way, Catholics still use many thees and thous also, as in the Hail Mary, the Our Father etc., so why be parochial over something like that . . . ?

The use of those quaint terms like “thee” and “thou” when praying is to differentiate between God and mere humans who would be addressed using “you” etc. The use of those elegant terms acknowledges the supreme status of Who we are addressing. In my opinion the use of common terms when addressing God borders on the sin of Pride.

 

[MarkThompson]

The use of those quaint terms like “thee” and “thou” when praying is to differentiate between God and mere humans who would be addressed using “you” etc. The use of those elegant terms acknowledges the supreme status of Who we are addressing. In my opinion the use of common terms when addressing God borders on the sin of Pride.

This is a common misconception among people who are not very familiar with this kind of language, unfortunately. “Thee” and “thou” are actually the informal terms of address. “You” is the formal. It is customary to address God only with the informal, intimate pronoun.

You’ll see this distinction among the only people who still use the terms: groups like the Quakers, who consider themselves a “Society of Friends” and spurn the formal manner of address among each other. That’s why they use thee and thou. You’ll also see it in languages which retain the distinction in everyday use, most obviously Spanish, where tu is the intimate pronoun and usted is the formal. Tu is universally used to address God, even though it would never be used to address any kind of superior.

So you have the situation entirely backward, I’m afraid. It is entirely right to use informal pronouns in speaking to God, and would be especially backwards to resurrect outdated, originally-informal pronouns to try to convey invented formality through the use of outmoded, little-understood English which is falsely believed to hold the opposite of its traditional signification.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

This is a common misconception among people who are not very familiar with this kind of language, unfortunately. “Thee” and “thou” are actually the informal terms of address. “You” is the formal. It is customary to address God only with the informal, intimate pronoun.

You’ll see this distinction among the only people who still use the terms: groups like the Quakers, who consider themselves a “Society of Friends” and spurn the formal manner of address among each other. That’s why they use thee and thou. You’ll also see it in languages which retain the distinction in everyday use, most obviously Spanish, where tu is the intimate pronoun and usted is the formal. Tu is universally used to address God, even though it would never be used to address any kind of superior.

So you have the situation entirely backward, I’m afraid. It is entirely right to use informal pronouns in speaking to God, and would be especially backwards to resurrect outdated, originally-informal pronouns to try to convey invented formality through the use of outmoded, little-understood English which is falsely believed to hold the opposite of its traditional signification.

The usage you describe is correct when discussing the English language in literature and street language. The title of this thread addresses specifically the continuation of religious tradition in which the use of “Thee” and “Thou” are traditional when we are addressing God. I consider the use of “you” to be yet another step in the attempt to bring God down to the level of common street people. For the record we used “thee” and “thou” in prayers such as the Hail Mary right up until the V-II changes, most of my generation still does, so I believe in terms of tradition “thee” and “thou” far outweigh “you”. You address God however you want and so shall I.

 

[Senecus]

In summary, it seems to me that a common trend concerning the liturgy is simplification, which sometimes saps or dilutes the classical, historic forms that were developed during the 1500’s through the mid 1800’s.

Just like the Latin mass, we should, at least on occasion, offer those alternative settings to the parish/congregation.

A thorough example of the beauty of the historic liturgy is found in this video - - note the very traditional form of the Confession, using words such as “transgressions” instead of “sin”, etc.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2940862931815796796#

 

[MarkThompson]

The usage you describe is correct when discussing the English language in literature and street language. The title of this thread addresses specifically the continuation of religious tradition in which the use of “Thee” and “Thou” are traditional when we are addressing God. I consider the use of “you” to be yet another step in the attempt to bring God down to the level of common street people. For the record we used “thee” and “thou” in prayers such as the Hail Mary right up until the V-II changes, most of my generation still does, so I believe in terms of tradition “thee” and “thou” far outweigh “you”. You address God however you want and so shall I.

Feel free to do as you please, but just be aware that you are deliberately selecting less formal, rather than a more formal, method of address. You are also inventing an un-traditional novelty, namely the use of different terms “to differentiate between God and mere humans who would be addressed using ‘you’ etc.” In the days when “thee” and “thou” were normal words, humans naturally would be addressed with those words – namely, humans with whom you were on informal or intimate terms. So when prayers like the Our Father (customary English version) and books like the Douay-Rheims translation were written, it would be well understood that you are addressing God in the same language you would use to address family members or close friends. To resurrect “thee” and “thou” so that you can have separate, special, “elevated” words to address God alone is, unfortunately, a complete innovation. The opposite of tradition, funny enough!

I wouldn’t belabor the point except for your wrongheaded remark about the “sin of Pride” in using “common terms” to address God. Far from prideful, it is traditional to do that. You are the innovator. If you’re comfortable with that, then that’s fine, but preening about how much more elevated and respectful you are than everyone else would be unseemly even if you weren’t dead wrong about the entire history of the issue.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic and avoid being uncivil, everyone. Thank you.