Why the Church Struggles with Retaining Members

[JuniperoSerra]

I’ve been pondering and praying on why the Church has long struggled with retaining members and here is what I have concluded:

• First the average Catholic’s most common, ongoing connection with the faith is attending Sunday Mass. Nothing at all wrong or odd with that.
• Unlike any other institution I know of – not family, gov’t, business, education, non-profits, etc., when a member of the faithful runs into a problem (even a serious problem) with their parish or pastor, there’s often no corrective action available whatsoever. This seems especially true with regard to the liturgy. This has long driven people away.
• Often those that remain, both clergy and lay, a fairly high percentage of those “involved with the liturgy” are often people who seem to offend others on a regular basis. This too drives people away. After while this group has become terribly inbred and deleterious.
• Not only is corrective action frequently not available, those that dare mention/discuss problems are often vilified. It’s absolutely verboten to be critical no matter how constructive the comments. It’s far easier to attack someone than to actually solve a problem.
• The root of much of that listed above is the lack of genuine leadership at many parishes. Pastors often go through life (including college, seminary and post graduate education) with little or no formation or experience in leadership. This lack of leadership includes members of the laity as well who take on responsibilities without the necessarily skills.
• There is a lack of competition between Catholic parishes contributing to mediocrity. Like the gov’t, the local Catholic parish is typically “take it or leave it”, we’re the only game in town. There’s no reason to strive for excellence. There is also often no other option for the faithful. This typically does not exist in other sectors of Christianity.
• No matter how good or effective they might be within their own constrained worlds, the good efforts of all other non-Catholic Christian denomination are often completely dismissed because they lack the Real Presence of Jesus in their churches. In other words we attempt to completely discount the good efforts of others (efforts that would benefit the Catholic Church if Catholics would do them!) simply because God has graced the Catholic Church in a very special way. Sad.
• Pollyannaism seems rampant in the Church, at least in the US.
• Parishes lack real community. Some were originally defined as giant parishes with multiple Sunday Masses of people who don’t really know one another. Often parishes have been “clustered” into parishes with multiple Sunday Masses per day with no chance for additional fellowship.
• Finally, expectations and the level of effort seem to be in the toilet at many parishes. The celebration of the Mass has become perfunctory. All too often it resembles a gov’t institution punching the tickets of individuals (all Catholics in actuality) who are legally required to take part in a weekly meeting. Worse, many of us don’t expect anymore than this.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

You and me are going to get on great!

 

[R_H_Benson]

Better Catehchesis, particularly on the Holy Mass as the Sacrfice of Calvary, is necessary. Also, more frequent and worthy reception of the sacraments, especially the Sacrament of Penance by the faithful, in order to keep alive the life of grace and the supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity in our souls so that we may love and serve the Lord. Without catchesis and/or the life of grace, no wonder so many have become merely nominal in the Faith, or have abandon it all together.

 

[pianistclare]

I’ve been pondering and praying on why the Church has long struggled with retaining members and here is what I have concluded:

• First the average Catholic’s most common, ongoing connection with the faith is attending Sunday Mass. Nothing at all wrong or odd with that.
• Unlike any other institution I know of – not family, gov’t, business, education, non-profits, etc., when a member of the faithful runs into a problem (even a serious problem) with their parish or pastor, there’s often no corrective action available whatsoever. This seems especially true with regard to the liturgy. This has long driven people away.

**Generally, “correction” is not done by the laity towards the clergy. This right here is a bad place to start. Who in the pews can “correct” a person with major theological training. There is a presumption of knowing better than the priest which indeed, is a source of much angst and unnecessary criticism and drama. **

• Often those that remain, both clergy and lay, a fairly high percentage of those “involved with the liturgy” are often people who seem to offend others on a regular basis. This too drives people away. After while this group has become terribly inbred and deleterious.

**Offend? It’s often the case that the liturgy expert in the pew has little real knowledge of the rubrics of the church in the first place. People go on “what I like and prefer” over what is correct at times. **

• Not only is corrective action frequently not available, those that dare mention/discuss problems are often vilified. It’s absolutely verboten to be critical no matter how constructive the comments. It’s far easier to attack someone than to actually solve a problem.
  **You should really see how people talk to priests and employees. You’d be really embarrassed. **
• The root of much of that listed above is the lack of genuine leadership at many parishes. Pastors often go through life (including college, seminary and post graduate education) with little or no formation or experience in leadership. This lack of leadership includes members of the laity as well who take on responsibilities without the necessarily skills.

**Seminary is all about leadership. **

• There is a lack of competition between Catholic parishes contributing to mediocrity. Like the gov’t, the local Catholic parish is typically “take it or leave it”, we’re the only game in town. There’s no reason to strive for excellence. There is also often no other option for the faithful. This typically does not exist in other sectors of Christianity.

**Our “option” is to be faithful Catholics in good standing. There’s no competition involved, no. **

• No matter how good or effective they might be within their own constrained worlds, the good efforts of all other non-Catholic Christian denomination are often completely dismissed because they lack the Real Presence of Jesus in their churches. In other words we attempt to completely discount the good efforts of others (efforts that would benefit the Catholic Church if Catholics would do them!) simply because God has graced the Catholic Church in a very special way. Sad.

**The lack of the Real Presence is not the fault of the people in the pews. They choose another way. They are free to come to the Catholic Church. They don’t want to. People have this notion that “good feelings” trump Church history. People are not derided because of their different faiths. Quite the contrary. We hold all Christians as brothers and sisters. **

• Pollyannaism seems rampant in the Church, at least in the US.
  **Define your terms. **
• Parishes lack real community. Some were originally defined as giant parishes with multiple Sunday Masses of people who don’t really know one another. Often parishes have been “clustered” into parishes with multiple Sunday Masses per day with no chance for additional fellowship.

**Whose fault is that? The people who merely want to show up and punch their card so to speak are always needed in ministries like feeding the poor, counting the collection, teaching the children, doing the linens, Knight of Columbus, you name it, There’s something for everyone. But no one is gong to yank you from your seat and MAKE you participate. **

• Finally, expectations and the level of effort seem to be in the toilet at many parishes. The celebration of the Mass has become perfunctory. All too often it resembles a gov’t institution punching the tickets of individuals (all Catholics in actuality) who are legally required to take part in a weekly meeting. Worse, many of us don’t expect anymore than this.

**This is such an offensive statement.
A meeting with a good spiritual Director is in order. You are so jaded you can’t see the solution is within your grasp. **

 

[commenter]

In the US and other Western countries, the Media and educational systems are aggressively secular, far more than ever. To live as a Christian, especially as Catholic, is to swim upstream. Many Christians, and some entire Protestant denominations, are choosing to “go with the flow”, simply echo whatever the Media teaches.

 

[smead2942]

In the US and other Western countries, the Media and educational systems are aggressively secular, far more than ever. To live as a Christian, especially as Catholic, is to swim upstream. Many Christians, and some entire Protestant denominations, are choosing to “go with the flow”, simply echo whatever the Media teaches.

The Church struggles with retaining members because the postconciliar period introduced modernism into the faith. As Pope Leo XIII once said, it is “like a drop of poison in a cup of water”. Catholicism is no longer taught to the laity. Instead, they get watered-down, feel-goody modernist inventions that tickle their ears. If Catholics were properly catechized, especially regarding the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, things would be quite different. Likewise, if people believed in the Real Presence, the line for the confessional would be out the doors of the church.

Younger priests are starting to reinvigorate orthodox Catholicism, and that is extremely promising.

 

[Crusaderbear]

**This is such an offensive statement.
A meeting with a good spiritual Director is in order. You are so jaded you can’t see the solution is within your grasp. **

Did you just recommend reeducation for someone with a different opinion than yours? I see nothing offensive in their opinions.

Added I didn’t say i agree, just that they are entitled to their opinion and point of view!

 

[Xantippe]

Did you just recommend reeducation for someone with a different opinion than yours? I see nothing offensive in their opinions.

Assuming that every other Catholic in the pews is just going through the motions is pretty offensive.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I’ve been pondering and praying on why the Church has long struggled with retaining members and here is what I have concluded:

• First the average Catholic’s most common, ongoing connection with the faith is attending Sunday Mass. Nothing at all wrong or odd with that.
• Unlike any other institution I know of – not family, gov’t, business, education, non-profits, etc., when a member of the faithful runs into a problem (even a serious problem) with their parish or pastor, there’s often no corrective action available whatsoever. This seems especially true with regard to the liturgy. This has long driven people away.
• Often those that remain, both clergy and lay, a fairly high percentage of those “involved with the liturgy” are often people who seem to offend others on a regular basis. This too drives people away. After while this group has become terribly inbred and deleterious.
• Not only is corrective action frequently not available, those that dare mention/discuss problems are often vilified. It’s absolutely verboten to be critical no matter how constructive the comments. It’s far easier to attack someone than to actually solve a problem.
• The root of much of that listed above is the lack of genuine leadership at many parishes. Pastors often go through life (including college, seminary and post graduate education) with little or no formation or experience in leadership. This lack of leadership includes members of the laity as well who take on responsibilities without the necessarily skills.
• There is a lack of competition between Catholic parishes contributing to mediocrity. Like the gov’t, the local Catholic parish is typically “take it or leave it”, we’re the only game in town. There’s no reason to strive for excellence. There is also often no other option for the faithful. This typically does not exist in other sectors of Christianity.
• No matter how good or effective they might be within their own constrained worlds, the good efforts of all other non-Catholic Christian denomination are often completely dismissed because they lack the Real Presence of Jesus in their churches. In other words we attempt to completely discount the good efforts of others (efforts that would benefit the Catholic Church if Catholics would do them!) simply because God has graced the Catholic Church in a very special way. Sad.
• Pollyannaism seems rampant in the Church, at least in the US.
• Parishes lack real community. Some were originally defined as giant parishes with multiple Sunday Masses of people who don’t really know one another. Often parishes have been “clustered” into parishes with multiple Sunday Masses per day with no chance for additional fellowship.
• Finally, expectations and the level of effort seem to be in the toilet at many parishes. The celebration of the Mass has become perfunctory. All too often it resembles a gov’t institution punching the tickets of individuals (all Catholics in actuality) who are legally required to take part in a weekly meeting. Worse, many of us don’t expect anymore than this.

I have to say at my parish, which is very large, the pastor really does try, and most of the people seem to be there because they want to be there. Communion lines are very long because almost everyone takes communion.

The only thing I don’t like is that one family seems to dominate all the volunteer posts. Sure, they volunteered for it, but if someone from another family volunteers, they are told, "Oh, no, … … is going to do it! It’s impossible to “get a jump” on them because the wife is the church secretary! LOL She makes sure they have advance notice of these jobs.

I would go to Bible Study and Choir, but they are held at times that are convenient for the particular family above and inconvenient for most of the rest of us (We even have midnight Mass at 10:00 pm to accommodate them!). There is nothing at all wrong with this family. They are good, Catholic people. I like them. They are helpful to others. They just dominate the parish a little too much. One can’t open a church bulletin without seeing their names listed 20 times. That would be fine if other people had a chance to do things, too.

 

[Xantippe]

Midnight Mass at 10 PM is not that uncommon in the US.

I doubt that it’s just one family that wants it.

I have to say at my parish, which is very large, the pastor really does try, and most of the people seem to be there because they want to be there. Communion lines are very long because almost everyone takes communion.

The only thing I don’t like is that one family seems to dominate all the volunteer posts. Sure, they volunteered for it, but if someone from another family volunteers, they are told, "Oh, no, … … is going to do it! It’s impossible to “get a jump” on them because the wife is the church secretary! LOL She makes sure they have advance notice of these jobs.

I would go to Bible Study and Choir, but they are held at times that are convenient for the particular family above and inconvenient for most of the rest of us (We even have midnight Mass at 10:00 pm to accommodate them!). There is nothing at all wrong with this family. They are good, Catholic people. I like them. They are helpful to others. They just dominate the parish a little too much. One can’t open a church bulletin without seeing their names listed 20 times. That would be fine if other people had a chance to do things, too.

 

[7_Sorrows]

what does the OP mean by “pollyannism is rampant in the Church”?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Younger priests are starting to reinvigorate orthodox Catholicism, and that is extremely promising.

I see that in my diocese (not in my parish, though). It’s really terrific.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve been pondering and praying on why the Church has long struggled with retaining members and here is what I have concluded:

• First the average Catholic’s most common, ongoing connection with the faith is attending Sunday Mass. Nothing at all wrong or odd with that.
• Unlike any other institution I know of – not family, gov’t, business, education, non-profits, etc., when a member of the faithful runs into a problem (even a serious problem) with their parish or pastor, there’s often no corrective action available whatsoever. This seems especially true with regard to the liturgy. This has long driven people away.
• Often those that remain, both clergy and lay, a fairly high percentage of those “involved with the liturgy” are often people who seem to offend others on a regular basis. This too drives people away. After while this group has become terribly inbred and deleterious.
• Not only is corrective action frequently not available, those that dare mention/discuss problems are often vilified. It’s absolutely verboten to be critical no matter how constructive the comments. It’s far easier to attack someone than to actually solve a problem.
• The root of much of that listed above is the lack of genuine leadership at many parishes. Pastors often go through life (including college, seminary and post graduate education) with little or no formation or experience in leadership. This lack of leadership includes members of the laity as well who take on responsibilities without the necessarily skills.
• There is a lack of competition between Catholic parishes contributing to mediocrity. Like the gov’t, the local Catholic parish is typically “take it or leave it”, we’re the only game in town. There’s no reason to strive for excellence. There is also often no other option for the faithful. This typically does not exist in other sectors of Christianity.
• No matter how good or effective they might be within their own constrained worlds, the good efforts of all other non-Catholic Christian denomination are often completely dismissed because they lack the Real Presence of Jesus in their churches. In other words we attempt to completely discount the good efforts of others (efforts that would benefit the Catholic Church if Catholics would do them!) simply because God has graced the Catholic Church in a very special way. Sad.
• Pollyannaism seems rampant in the Church, at least in the US.
• Parishes lack real community. Some were originally defined as giant parishes with multiple Sunday Masses of people who don’t really know one another. Often parishes have been “clustered” into parishes with multiple Sunday Masses per day with no chance for additional fellowship.
• Finally, expectations and the level of effort seem to be in the toilet at many parishes. The celebration of the Mass has become perfunctory. All too often it resembles a gov’t institution punching the tickets of individuals (all Catholics in actuality) who are legally required to take part in a weekly meeting. Worse, many of us don’t expect anymore than this.

1. Your belief in the ease of changing the government, schools, non-profits, and families is misplaced. I had two relatives on my small home town school board. Even as one member of a 5-member board, it was like swimming in cold molasses to change anything for the better. Likewise with families–what is the appeals process for getting your mom to show less favoritism when she doesn’t believe she is playing favorites? There isn’t one.
2. I don’t find that clergy are eager to offend.
3. People that only address negative concerns are going to be seen as…negative. Marriage counselors recommend a 5-1 positive-negative remark ratio to married couples. In our family, we try to take the pastor to lunch or brunch at least once a year to make sure that if and when we have an issue, we will be given a fair hearing.

Also, people that contribute will get more of a hearing than those that don’t.

1. Does “lack of leadership” mean “doesn’t do what I think he should do”?
2. We live in a small big city and there are lots of different parishes, each with a particular character. I know it’s different in rural areas, but everything’s like that in rural areas–not just Catholic churches.
3. Parishes competing against each other is a gross idea.
4. “Pollyannaism” may just be the Christian virtue of hope.

 

[Gorgias]

First the average Catholic’s most common, ongoing connection with the faith is attending Sunday Mass. Nothing at all wrong or odd with that.

I couldn’t agree less: if a person’s only connection with his faith is one hour of time spent sitting in a pew, then there’s something fundamentally wrong with that! (I agree, though, that for many Christians – Catholics and non-Catholics alike! – this is an accurate assessment.)

Unlike any other institution I know of – not family, gov’t, business, education, non-profits, etc., when a member of the faithful runs into a problem (even a serious problem) with their parish or pastor, there’s often no corrective action available whatsoever. This seems especially true with regard to the liturgy. This has long driven people away.

I guess this all depends on what you mean by a ‘problem’, especially ‘with regard to the liturgy’. Are you talking about illicit practices? These can be reported up the chain of command. (On the other hand, you have to ask yourself what you expect the results of such action would be; our experience in a consumer society has skewed our expectations. At a restaurant or other business, we expect the person to be sacked (or at least reprimanded). Do we really expect that, in an environment where there are volunteers (and precious few at that) and ordained ministers (and a shortage of them to boot) that getting people fired/re-assigned is a possibility?

Often those that remain, both clergy and lay, a fairly high percentage of those “involved with the liturgy” are often people who seem to offend others on a regular basis.

I think you need to give some examples; this isn’t my experience. Are you talking about the styles with which volunteers and clergy interact with people? Or are you talking about issues and opinions about them? Big difference, there…

Not only is corrective action frequently not available, those that dare mention/discuss problems are often vilified. It’s absolutely verboten to be critical no matter how constructive the comments. It’s far easier to attack someone than to actually solve a problem.

Umm… which is it? “Verboten to be critical” or “personal attacks”?

The root of much of that listed above is the lack of genuine leadership at many parishes. Pastors often go through life (including college, seminary and post graduate education) with little or no formation or experience in leadership.

I’m with Clare – seminary teaches leadership. In addition, in my diocese, there’s a program sponsored and encouraged by the diocese to build leadership techniques in clergy.

This lack of leadership includes members of the laity as well who take on responsibilities without the necessarily skills.

When the choice is between “no volunteers” and “volunteers who need training”, what do you choose?

There is a lack of competition between Catholic parishes contributing to mediocrity.

Again, this is creeping consumerism. The Church is not a store that’s competing for business with the shop down the street!

Like the gov’t, the local Catholic parish is typically “take it or leave it”, we’re the only game in town. There’s no reason to strive for excellence.

There are plenty of reasons to strive for excellence! However, when 90% of the parish only shows their faces for one hour a week, what do you expect?

No matter how good or effective they might be within their own constrained worlds, the good efforts of all other non-Catholic Christian denomination are often completely dismissed because they lack the Real Presence of Jesus in their churches.

Hmm… I think a little more detail is required here. In what way do you perceive that “the good efforts of other denominations are completely dismissed”?

Parishes lack real community.

This is a real problem. However, again, what ‘community’ can we expect if people only show up for one hour a week (and, at that, begrudgingly)? The leadership of parishes needs to foster community… but people have to want it.

Often parishes have been “clustered” into parishes with multiple Sunday Masses per day with no chance for additional fellowship.

This dynamic is generally the result of a lack of vocations. Who is it who can begin to influence young men that the priesthood is a viable life option? Sure, the example of good priests will help, but… families need to start making the case to their sons that this is a good choice. If boys hear only negative comments about priests from their parents, and hear that their parents want them not to become priests (“let someone else become a priest, Tommy – you’re gonna be a doctor or lawyer or NFL star!”)… then what chance is there that they’ll grow up thinking any differently?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

**This is such an offensive statement.
A meeting with a good spiritual Director is in order. You are so jaded you can’t see the solution is within your grasp. **

You beat me to it. The OP has either never actually spoken with a priest, or is so blinded by personal misconception that nothing would satisfy them.

 

[DeniseNY]

OP, are you Catholic?

 

[Gorgias]

Ummm…why do you say the other Christian churches lack “the real presence of Jesus” in their churches?
Where, exactly, would this claim or belief come from?

“The real presence of Jesus” is a description of the Eucharist. Catholics believe that the Eucharist only exists where there is a valid priesthood, and therefore, generally only in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

 

[R_H_Benson]

Ummm…why do you say the other Christian churches lack “the real presence of Jesus” in their churches?
Where, exactly, would this claim or belief come from?

.

Because Our Lord’s Real Presence in the Eucharist is only found in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Our Lord may be spiritually present in some Protestant communities, but not Sacramentally in their communion services. The OP’s capitalization of “Real Presence” clearly indicates he was speaking of the Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[ProVobis]

You forgot perhaps the biggest and most important reason why, IMO.
For all the people I know who were brought up Catholic and do not follow the religion any more…the reason they leave is because they don’t agree with the doctrines.
.

Perhaps. Others may simply not know what the doctrines are. I think they call it unintentional ignorance these days. And unfortunately ignorance breeds ignorance.

I better stop right there, as I’m sure I’ve offended enough already.

 

[TimothyH]

It is a false assumption that the Church is struggling to maintain members. The worldwide church is growing, not shrinking.

Any reduction in membership can be easily explained by regional migration and the rejection of organized religion in general. These are not exclusive to Catholicism.

I think you are all trying to explain something that isn’t happening.

-Tim-