Why the conversations explaining why NFP is moral don't work

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#1: I thought that if we are Catholic, we are Catholic. Trying to elevate ones holiness by describing themselves as Latin Right Catholics, Extraordinary Form Catholics or Traditional Form Catholics is nothing but a subtle manner in which to divide all members of the Church. We received the same sacraments.

#2. I have never seen birth control mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

Semantics aside, NFP is contraception, no mistaking it for something else.
The N.F.P. is not the sin of contraception. Your acception of the definition of voluntary and direct contraception is not link with the Catholic Magisterium. Your view is, totally, wrong, it is against the natural philosophy of morality and against the moral theology of the revealed anthropology.

Do you refuse Humanae Vitae coming from Paul VI? Do you disagree with some speeches and documents of Pie XII on those topics? The semantics is important, I am so sorry. Each sin has material elements and immaterial (intentional) elements. Do you know the positions from the Vatican at end of the XIX century on this topic? The same like now. Nothing is new.

Your first paradigm for thinking the morality is wrong. **YES, the first catholic paradigm of morality is the fact of seeking pleasure in the respect of the natural moral order of the creation. **As human being , I have the natural right to act and to get pleasure in respecting the natural moral order that is coming from the natural moral law wanted by God.
 
#1: I thought that if we are Catholic, we are Catholic. Trying to elevate ones holiness by describing themselves as Latin Right Catholics, Extraordinary Form Catholics or Traditional Form Catholics is nothing but a subtle manner in which to divide all members of the Church. We received the same sacraments.

#2. I have never seen birth control mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

Semantics aside, NFP is contraception, no mistaking it for something else.
What are the ends of the marital act? What are the telos of the marital act? What are the telos of the union of body? What are the roles and the functions of the marital act? What are the roles and the functions of the sexual organs, in the context of the marital act? What are the telos of the erogenous parts of human body. What are the telos of conjugal sexual pleasures, and of marital orgasms? …etc.

What is your view of the definition of the masturbation, in the context of the marital act? Are you a follower of moral theology of Ronald Conte about the modus operandi of the marital act? Are you against the sexual preliminaries between wife and husband, in the context of the marital act? What is your acception of the definition of each sexual sin, in the marriage?
 
#1: I thought that if we are Catholic, we are Catholic. Trying to elevate ones holiness by describing themselves as Latin Right Catholics, Extraordinary Form Catholics or Traditional Form Catholics is nothing but a subtle manner in which to divide all members of the Church. We received the same sacraments.

#2. I have never seen birth control mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

Semantics aside, NFP is contraception, no mistaking it for something else.
Are you against the articulation that has to be done between the encyclical " Casti Connubii" , the encyclical " Humanae Vitae", the Vademecum for “Confessors Concerning Some Aspects of the Morality of Conjugal Life”, the Apostolic Exhortation " Familiaris Consortio " coming from Saint John Paul II, the encyclical “Evangelium Vitae” coming from Saint John Paul II, the " Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 2795, 3634" concerning the conditions where it is morally licit for the innocent spouse to request the marital act if the other spouse is under contraception without abortive effects (three cumulatives conditions) or if the other spouse is under contraception with abortive effects (four cumulatives conditions).

A. The contraception without abortive effects, if and only there are three cumulative conditions:
  1. “the action of the cooperating spouse is not already illicit in itself”???
  2. “proportionally grave reasons exist”???
  3. “when one is seeking to help the other spouse to desist from such conduct (patiently, with prayer, charity and dialogue; although not necessarily in that moment, nor on every single occasion). Holy Church knows full well that not infrequently, one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin”???
B. The contraception with abortive effects, if and only there are four cumulative conditions:
  1. “the action of the cooperating spouse is not already illicit in itself”???
  2. “proportionally grave reasons exist”???
  3. “when one is seeking to help the other spouse to desist from such conduct (patiently, with prayer, charity and dialogue; although not necessarily in that moment, nor on every single occasion). Holy Church knows full well that not infrequently, one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin”???
  4. 4.Furthermore, it is necessary to carefully evaluate the question of cooperation in evil when recourse is made to means which can have an abortifacient effect. "48 That means, that has to be present the same cumulative conditions that if there was no abortive effect, and more.
    48 “From the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it”.
Do you agree with those texts? YES or NO!!!
 
#1: I thought that if we are Catholic, we are Catholic. Trying to elevate ones holiness by describing themselves as Latin Right Catholics, Extraordinary Form Catholics or Traditional Form Catholics is nothing but a subtle manner in which to divide all members of the Church. We received the same sacraments.

#2. I have never seen birth control mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

Semantics aside, NFP is contraception, no mistaking it for something else.
NFP is not contraception. I think there is an important distinction between Magisterium faithful Catholics and sedavacantists though. The Church teaches this…

**2370 **Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160

If you reject the teaching of the Church on this matter, that is being more than one of the normal variants within Catholicism.
 
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Even many Catholics think that claiming to be open to life when one is going to great lengths to avoid pregnancy is a bit ingenuous. But in the end, we do not know what is going on in the heart or mind of any married couple as they engage in the marital act.
What is it that you think “open to life” means in the context of Catholic doctrine, as opposed to an oft-used colloquialism?
 
#1: I thought that if we are Catholic, we are Catholic. Trying to elevate ones holiness by describing themselves as Latin Right Catholics, Extraordinary Form Catholics or Traditional Form Catholics is nothing but a subtle manner in which to divide all members of the Church. We received the same sacraments.

#2. I have never seen birth control mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

Semantics aside, NFP is contraception, no mistaking it for something else.
If you are, exclusively, a parishioner of a chapel held by a priest of the SSPX, if you are crypto-sedevacantist, if you are a semi-sedevacantist, if you are sedevacantist, if you are against the post-conciliar documents concerning the marriage and Co, and if you are touched by some heresies and some ideologies ---- encratism, manicheism, catharism, quietism, fideism, jansenism, puritanism, victorianism, theoretical providentialism, quiverfullism, absolute procreationism, angelism, primary anti-personalism, primary anti-phenomenologism, primary anti-conjugal erotism, the moralism against the conjugal joys of the marital act during the infertile times of wife, angelism, conjugal asexualism, conjugal desexualism,…etc ---- on the natural moral law of the dual humanity, of the marriage and of the marital act with all the corollaries, the debate is almost impossible.

The race to the large family, the uterus of wife viewed like, only, a machine for babies, the refusal of the responsible procreation and **the refusal of the 3 ends of marriage are crazy and not very just and charitable. **
 
All the subtopics about the morality of marriage and his linked subtopics are very debated and the discussions are so strong. The doxa and the praxis are debated very strongly by catholic lay persons.

What is morally okay per se and, only, wrong in function of circumstances? What is the definition of a circumstance. What is a good context and a good intention? What is, always, morally wrong, whatever the context? Per se and by nature always morally wrong? The definition of marriage? The ends of marriage? The articulation of ends of marriage? The definition of the marital act? The ends of the marital act? ? The articulation of ends of the marital act? The N.F.P? The large family? Grave or serious reasons for the N.F.P.? The right on the body, the right to the body, the right of the body, the conjugal debt, the donation and the reception of bodies in the human fashion, with the sexual cooperation, the Song of Songs within the catholic marriage, the modus operandi of the marital act, the conjugal / marital sins? The equality and the equity between husband and wife? The mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable submission between husband and wife? The condition of wife (rights, obligations, duties, roles and functions)? The condition of husband (rights, obligations, duties, roles and functions)? The presumption of the sin? The non-presumption of the sin? The acception of the near occasion of the sin? The scrupulsim and the scrupules on the human acts?…etc.
 
All the subtopics about the morality of marriage and his linked subtopics are very debated and the discussions are so strong. The doxa and the praxis are debated very strongly by catholic lay persons.

What is morally okay per se and, only, wrong in function of circumstances? What is the definition of a circumstance. What is a good context and a good intention? What is, always, morally wrong, whatever the context? Per se and by nature always morally wrong? The definition of marriage? The ends of marriage? The articulation of ends of marriage? The definition of the marital act? The ends of the marital act? ? The articulation of ends of the marital act? The N.F.P? The large family? Grave or serious reasons for the N.F.P.? The right on the body, the right to the body, the right of the body, the conjugal debt, the donation and the reception of bodies in the human fashion, with the sexual cooperation, the Song of Songs within the catholic marriage, the modus operandi of the marital act, the conjugal / marital sins? The equality and the equity between husband and wife? The mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable submission between husband and wife? The condition of wife (rights, obligations, duties, roles and functions)? The condition of husband (rights, obligations, duties, roles and functions)? The presumption of the sin? The non-presumption of the sin? The acception of the near occasion of the sin? The scrupulism and the scrupules on the human acts?..etc.
Other questions:

What are the official sources of the Roman Catholic Magisterium? What is the Catholic hierarchy of norms? What is the nature of each catholic norm? What is the territorial competence of each catholic norm? What is the material competence of each catholic norm? What is the good acception of the constitutive elements of each norm: object, intentions, circumstances, ends, the “why”, the reasons …? A catholic norm for the banning? A catholic norm for permitting? A catholic norm for a principle with exceptions? The principles or the exceptions? The science of the interpretation of the norm? The genuine source of a document???
 
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Semantics aside, NFP is contraception, no mistaking it for something else.
What semantics, relevant to the doctrine of contraception, do you have in mind?

The Church teaches that contraception is intrinsically evil. That evil lies in the separation of the unitive and procreative aspects of sexual intercourse. That evil does not, cannot, arise when a couple adopts NFP.

The morality of an act is determined by its Intentions, the Moral Object of the actual act, and the Circumstances (incl Consequences). All should be good (the latter not evil) for a an act to be moral.

The Intentions and Consequences associated with an act of contraception, or with an act of “not having sex” (or sex during infertile times) might be the same. The Intention (say, to space out Children for just reasons) is not evil, and the Consequence - not having a child at this time, is morally neutral. So, if this is the case, then it is only the Intrinsic act that, morally speaking, that distinguishes the two acts. The Moral Object of a contraceptive act is evil, that of having sex in marriage, albeit not at fertile times, remains good.

The Intention to avoid children in order to focus on purely selfish pursuits would not be a good intention. So, even adoption of NFP, if that is the intention, would be immoral. It would not, however, become “contraception”.
 
I still think a huge problem with the Catholic debate over when “NFP can be used” is largely based on calling it NFP. By calling it Family Planning, we are semantically connecting what would more accurately be called menstrual cycle charting (Please see the wikipedia article on what the menstrual cycle is) with periodic abstinence. This view of combining the two makes it a birth control method, making it semantically difficult for us to distinguish it from contraceptives.

The fact that we delay education in this sort of menstrual charting till a couple is engaged or already married further illustrates how we view the charting and abstinence so unified that we view charting as a birth control method — even when we insist it’s not. And this further leads to constant debates over the morality of it’s use. The ultra conservatives will continue to point to the fact that we’re playing a semantics game and thus argue “Look. It’s birth control. Therefore it’s wrong!” This leaves the rest of us to basically argue, “But it can’t be immoral because the Church approves it. Therefore it must not be birth control.”

If we are willing to recognize that the Rhythm Method was not defined by it’s simplistic chart until we started insisting we needed to distance ourself from it’s reputation by calling the symptom based methods by another name (NFP), then it becomes clearer what the Church teaches.

It doesn’t matter how we’re trying to figure out when we’re fertile. We could be determining our fertility by the most inaccurate tea leaf reading method possible. But the reality is, whether successful or not, Catholic birth control is and always has been abstinence.

When the Anglican Lambeth Council of 1930 “ok’ed” contraceptives under specific circumstances, the view was always one of contraceptives or abstinence. The Church did not talk about the Rhythm method because the Rhythm method, oddly enough, was only developed that year and wasn’t very well known.

The Church didn’t officially approved Rhythm in the 50’s, though priests and theologians did often advise laity that it fit with Catholic moral teaching before that period.

Regardless, the point to gain from this is that the Church has continually gone in the direction of both affirming that abstinence is the only legitimate form of birth control, all while promoting a growth in understanding of our reproductive systems so that we can more effectively use abstinence in a manner that puts the least strain on our marriages.

That pretty much summarizes my thoughts, but there’s a bit more of my thoughts here embersofincense.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/avoiding-pregnancy/

But I think what was posted here still allows room for discussion by itself. So thoughts? Should we stop calling it NFP? Should we teach fertility charting to young people?
The problem with NFP and it’s message is not nomenclature. It is not semantics and changing the words will do no good. The problem with NFP is that we live in a world where we demand to be in control and to plan. Sometimes that is prudent and wise, and sometimes it is dangerous.
 
The problem with NFP and it’s message is not nomenclature. It is not semantics and changing the words will do no good. The problem with NFP is that we live in a world where we demand to be in control and to plan. Sometimes that is prudent and wise, and sometimes it is dangerous.
:thumbsup:Exactly. There is nothing inherently evil or immoral with wanting to be in control of your life and sexuality, including the # of children you can AFFORD to raise.
 
Exactly. There is nothing inherently evil or immoral with wanting to be in control of your life and sexuality, including the # of children you can AFFORD to raise.
As a matter of fact the CCC specifically says…

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).
 
As a matter of fact the CCC specifically says…

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).
And here we go again like every thread that this comes up on.

Does one have to afford children to procreate? And if so, why are the “rules” so different in poor countries and in the US or Europe? Why do we have a different moral code than history or geography?

All this “affording” children nonsense is really just our own arrogance.
 
:thumbsup:Exactly. There is nothing inherently evil or immoral with wanting to be in control of your life and sexuality, including the # of children you can AFFORD to raise.
I actually lean the OPPOSITE way from what you stated…🤷
 
And here we go again like every thread that this comes up on.

Does one have to afford children to procreate? And if so, why are the “rules” so different in poor countries and in the US or Europe? Why do we have a different moral code than history or geography?

All this “affording” children nonsense is really just our own arrogance.
‘Affording’ is just one aspect of being responsible in the creating of family although ‘affording’ could pertain to financial, physical or emotional capacities. Nobody but nobody has the right or duty to have (name removed by moderator)ut on another families makeup or decisions. There are no ‘rules’. Being selfish rather than selfless is a human condition we must all address in many aspects of our lives. Parents with two children could very well be more selfless than parents of 10 who are motivated by vainglory or a ‘right to welfare’ mentality. It is completely irrelevant to any discussion on NFP.
 
‘Affording’ is just one aspect of being responsible in the creating of family although ‘affording’ could pertain to financial, physical or emotional capacities. Nobody but nobody has the right or duty to have (name removed by moderator)ut on another families makeup or decisions. There are no ‘rules’. Being selfish rather than selfless is a human condition we must all address in many aspects of our lives. Parents with two children could very well be more selfless than parents of 10 who are motivated by vainglory or a ‘right to welfare’ mentality. It is completely irrelevant to any discussion on NFP.
Again, this is the only aspect of the interpretation of the faith that has different rules for different people. That a third world couple can morally have a baby with no means of providing for it and perhaps in the middle of a war or a persecution and another couple can decide to not have a child because of the cost of car insurance is one of the many confusions of NFP. And, that is why the Church will clarify and elaborate on this new theology in time. Though bad news for us that usually is 100s of years in the making.😉
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Until then perhaps we should meditate more on the very first thing God told us to do.
 
’ Nobody but nobody has the right or duty to have (name removed by moderator)ut on another families makeup or decisions. .
So you agree that no one should say that a starving third world family, or the Christian families whose babies are being beheaded in Iraq are irresponsible for having children.

Right?

In fact this whole eye opening past few months has really put a damper on the whole. “gee we just can’t have a baby because it is stressful and we can’t “afford” it”

That kind of falls apart when looking at those pictures of those babies doesn’t it?
 
Again, this is the only aspect of the interpretation of the faith that has different rules for different people. That a third world couple can morally have a baby with no means of providing for it and perhaps in the middle of a war or a persecution and another couple can decide to not have a child because of the cost of car insurance is one of the many confusions of NFP. And, that is why the Church will clarify and elaborate on this new theology in time. Though bad news for us that usually is 100s of years in the making.😉
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Until then perhaps we should meditate more on the very first thing God told us to do.
What we should do … is mind our own beez wax about the decisions of other families whether they be first, second or third world families. It’s not ‘Catholic’ to do that. That’s coming from some new breed of neo Catholics who’ve often come over from the Evangelicals who truly believe that NFP is Catholic contraception based on erroneous assumptions.

The Church does not need to clarify anything because periodic and thorough temporary abstinences have been part of family planning for Catholics for yonks. It’s not new.
 
What we should do … is mind our own beez wax about the decisions of other families whether they be first, second or third world families. It’s not ‘Catholic’ to do that. That’s coming from some new breed of neo Catholics who’ve often come over from the Evangelicals who truly believe that NFP is Catholic contraception based on erroneous assumptions.

The Church does not need to clarify anything because periodic and thorough temporary abstinences have been part of family planning for Catholics for yonks. It’s not new.
YEs, personally we should mind our own bees wax. But in the promotion of NFP we have gone the opposite direction. It is the industry of NFP that has made it everyone’s business by promoting it is the “catholic birth control” it has tapped into the contraceptive mentality.
 
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