Why the effort?

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Bagheera

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I am looking at all those posts, which attempt to place Christianity onto some rational foundation. Trying to establish some secular proofs for the validly of christian beliefs. After all those tomistic “proofs of God” attempt to “prove” that one can establish God’s existence without referring to “faith” or “revelation”.

It is even stated in the first dogma that “God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things”. It would be interesting to discuss this dogma, but that would be the topic of another thread.

The question is “why this effort”? What is wrong with sticking to “faith” and “revelation”? There are quite a few posters, who are perfectly satisfied with “revelation” as the foundation of their belief. Besides, “faith” is supposed to be superior to “reason”. As Luther so eloquently said: “Reason must be trampled underfoot”, and “reason must be made the handmaiden of faith”.

I have my ideas why these “proofs” are introduced, why the apologists try to establish their worldview on fully secular grounds, without referring to “faith”. But those are my own personal opinions only, which can very well be false.

That is why I ask you. 🙂
 
I can’t answer for others…but for myself - I DO mostly just leave it at “faith”.

However - I can understand those who seek to go deeper both for their own enlightenment and to answer the questions of the skeptic.

St Paul made a comment about being all things to all men and he even famously used a Greek “alter to the unknown god” as an opening for his preaching. So while this is maybe not a direct correlation, I think it does point to the idea that such an approach can be helpful in some instances.

Peace
James
 
The question is “why this effort”? What is wrong with sticking to “faith” and “revelation”? There are quite a few posters, who are perfectly satisfied with “revelation” as the foundation of their belief. Besides, “faith” is supposed to be superior to “reason”. As Luther so eloquently said: “Reason must be trampled underfoot”, and “reason must be made the handmaiden of faith”.
Faith is ultimately what is important. But reason and faith are not opposed, so using reason to increase your faith is a good thing.

Philosophy is also useful for establishing Catholicism as intellectually viable. Some atheists regard faith with derision and think that you could only believe something through faith because you are being weak, intellectually dishonest, or superstitious. I would disagree (and note that “belief in the absence of evidence” is not really what any denomination means by “faith”), but in any case, because those perceptions exist, it is useful to be able to demonstrate the existence of God without recourse to faith. (Doing so also does not diminish the role of faith in any way.)

The Protestant Reformation played a substantial role in changing the perceived epistemological viability of Christianity. Luther, or Zwingli, or Calvin, certainly never went through and refuted St. Thomas, although they reacted against the use of reason in expounding the faith on principle. The result was that a large amount of people made conflicting claims that, by their nature, could not be verified or even debated on common grounds. Modern secularism is largely a result of that process of “interiorizing” Christianity. But if articles of faith can be proven through reason, then they need not set into an unresolvable stalemate.

Many of the resulting conceptions of God are, in my opinion, substantially weaker. For instance, the proposition “God is morally good” was not held by Christian thinkers through the Scholastics. It was not even held by many Protestant Reformers. But when one does away with metaphysics, one loses the ability to make nuanced distinctions. So it is a commonly held view today by “neo-theist” philosophers that God is morally good - even though it makes no sense to say that God is a moral agent, given what God is and given the presence of evil in the world. The result is that some people (I apologize for the obviously pointed example ;)) believe that this is what Catholics are committed to believing, when they are not, and when Christians for most of history have not believed it.
 
I used to be a practical atheist and I did nnot believe in the proofs of God’s existence. When I first ran across the arguments after I returned to the Church, I saw why.

To me, the proofs are *not *proofs of God-as-Christians-know-Him, and yet it seems that this is the way Christians all too often present the proofs.

Instead, I see the proofs as proofs more of a universe-creator about whom our “natural” knowledge can only be limited. (Let me explain my use of the term natural knowledge: that would be the knowledge we can come to by thinking. In the area of morals, for example, people can consider how things work in the world and come to certain conclusions about what works best, and this is called natural law. In the same way, there are certain ideas we can think about things like love.)

I got to this by considering the original source of these proofs–who was Aristotle. He had no knowledge of Judaism or Christianity; he just thought and pondered, starting with what one might call a blank mind, not one which had been steeped in a montheistic culture.

So, why do we consider this important? I can only answer this as a Catholic-- it is a basis of our thinking, of differentiating between natural and revealed knowledge, what a non-Catholic can be expected to see without going into revealed knowledge.

Remember that Catholics have been evangelizing for just under 2000 years and to many different peoples of many different backgrounds. For some of those whom we evangelized, the missionaries were among the first Europeans they had seen, if kot the very first. The evangelists needed to be able to meet them somewhere and draw their thinking along rather than just saying the God had spoken to them. There had to be a foundation on which to build.

When the 5 proofs were presented to me by a recently-saved Christian, he finished off by saying, so you see God exists! (rather obnoxiously triumphantly 😉 ) and I saw that there was a gap between what he had shown me and the conclusion he drew. That bothered me and I imagine that it is what bothers you.
 
When the 5 proofs were presented to me by a recently-saved Christian, he finished off by saying, so you see God exists! (rather obnoxiously triumphantly 😉 ) and I saw that there was a gap between what he had shown me and the conclusion he drew. That bothered me and I imagine that it is what bothers you.
This is a substantial problem with the usual treatment of the Five Ways by both Christians and non-Christians. They really should not be expected to make sense outside of Aquinas’s metaphysics. And although Aquinas finishes them by saying, “And this is what everyone calls God,” none of the Five Ways in themselves lead us to that conclusion (they show that there is Pure Act, or Ipsum Esse). Aquinas goes on for hundreds of pages to prove that the Unmoved Mover, First Efficient Cause, Necessary Being, Perfect Being, and Supreme Intelligence all refer to the same Being and have many of the qualities of the revealed God. But without any of that background, the Five Ways appear very unimpressive.

They are also notoriously misunderstood, even by Christians who “use” them. I was an atheist when I attended Catholic high school, and the teacher who introduced me to the Five Ways claimed that the cosmological arguments relied on the impossibility of an infinite past, which is simply not what Aquinas actually claims. But that is not obvious if you only read the text of the Five Ways.
 
Philosophy is also useful for establishing Catholicism as intellectually viable.
Yes, it WOULD be, if the process would not contain logical fallacies. But in that case there would be no need for faith.
Some atheists regard faith with derision and think that you could only believe something through faith because you are being weak, intellectually dishonest, or superstitious. I would disagree (and note that “belief in the absence of evidence” is not really what any denomination means by “faith”), but in any case, because those perceptions exist, it is useful to be able to demonstrate the existence of God without recourse to faith. (Doing so also does not diminish the role of faith in any way.)
I don’t know which definition of “faith” you employ, but I use the one from Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” And this kind of faith is definitely antithetical to reason.
But if articles of faith can be proven through reason, then they need not set into an unresolvable stalemate.
If articles of faith COULD be established by reason they would cease to be articles of faith. In that case there would be reason (;)) to have faith.
 
…]What is wrong with sticking to “faith” and “revelation”? …] Besides, “faith” is supposed to be superior to “reason”. As Luther so eloquently said: “Reason must be trampled underfoot”, and “reason must be made the handmaiden of faith”.
For what it’s worth I’ve seen the word “faith” frequently defined in these forums as “reasonable expectation.” This may or may not be compatible with the definition that I think you have in mind, which I think to be:
Merriam Webster:
something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
— on faith
: without question
 
Yes, it WOULD be, if the process would not contain logical fallacies. But in that case there would be no need for faith.
Philosophically, one can deduce, as Aristotole did, the existence and certain attributes of a creator of all that exists.

From there, we can know more about this creator through *revealed *knowledge or revelation, knowledge which God revealed to us theough His interactions with us.

People often confuse the type of faith Catholics talk about, which is a reasonable faith, with a blind faith, which is often based on the emotions.
I don’t know which definition of “faith” you employ, but I use the one from Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” And this kind of faith is definitely antithetical to reason.
Not at all. Our society relies on faith: faith that our lights will go on when we turn the switch; faith that our banks will put money in our accounts when we deposit a check, faith that others will stay on their sides of the road when we drive. All these are based on reasonable faith.

Blind faith is marrying a man who drinks to excess every night and sleeps around, thinking that love will change him.
If articles of faith COULD be established by reason they would cease to be articles of faith. In that case there would be reason (;)) to have faith.
And Christ himself pointed this out in St John 20:29: Because thou hast seen Me, Thomas, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and believed.

(We think of the word blessed as an adjective, but in the Bible, I find it is better to think of as a passive verb. When Mary said all generations would call her blessed, she didn’t mean we would think she was lucky, she meant that all would see how much God had given to her. In the same way, Catholics think of faith as a gift.

The important part about this way of thinking is that God gives us each enough so that we can attain Heaven. *But we have the choice as to whether to pick up the gift. *

If Christ mentions the fact that those are blessed who have not seen and yet believe, then this point must be important, and it is. There are two parts: one the assurance that faith is a gift from God, but the other that we have some choice in the matter. God does not overwhelm us so that we have no choice; God allows us to freely choose to enter into a relationship with Him.

Philospohically, it is reasonable to believe in a creator. And on the basis of knowledge handed down to us, it is reasonable to believe in God-as-the-Christians-describe.

I personally think it is *more *reasonable to believe in God and be a Catholic–not only is there more evidence for that whole belief-set, but it is more coherent and holistic–it covers everything and never contradicts itself.

There is certainly enough *said *about atheism and its related beliefs to make it possible to believe, but to me it was insufficient in both consistency and what it covered. It did not answer enough questions. The thing about atheism is that it is what is used as the credo franca–to reduce conflict, it serves as the underlying belief in public discourse. This can be very hard to pull sufficiently away from to really evaluate the claims and evidence of the two ways of thinking.
 
For what it’s worth I’ve seen the word “faith” frequently defined in these forums as “reasonable expectation.” This may or may not be compatible with the definition that I think you have in mind, which I think to be:
Pretty much. It is possible, but irrational to call any beliefs for which there is not 100% Cartesian certainty “faith”. Indeed such an approach is very frequently introduced by apologists, but they simply like to wash away the differences between levels of certainty.

In the absence of full certainty, one can estimate just how probable the claim is. To assert that the belief of “the car will start tomorrow” and the belief of “a three days old corpse will come back to life” to be both “articles of faith” removes the apologist from rational consideration. It is possible that the apologist is so dumb that he does not understand the difference, but I think that is very unlikely. It is much more likely that he can see the difference, but admitting it would deprive him of the “defense”… “but your beliefs are also based upon faith”!

One can establish a few semi-arbitrary limits, based upon the available evidence. By the way, evidence is something that does not have to be accepted a-priori, and what is not dependent on authority or mere hear-say. Evidence is a fact, or a procedure, which one can employ and reach the conclusion that the claim correctly describes reality. As such we can say that if the evidence gives a 90% or better assurance, then the phrase “reasonable expectation” is indeed correct. If the evidence gives less than 10% assurance, it is properly called “blind faith”. Somewhere in-between we can draw more lines for finer granulation.
 
The life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is quite provable if you look at history. Jesus had the most profound impact on the history of the world than any other man. That’s all I need.
 
Philosophically, one can deduce, as Aristotole did, the existence and certain attributes of a creator of all that exists.
I have never seen a correct deductive chain. All the deductions were “tainted” with logical errors and fallacies.
People often confuse the type of faith Catholics talk about, which is a reasonable faith, with a blind faith, which is often based on the emotions.
I reject this. Read the post directly above for details.
And Christ himself pointed this out in St John 20:29: Because thou hast seen Me, Thomas, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and believed.
We not wish to be “blessed”, we need assurance. Besides. why does this “blessing” dependent on ignorance? Why doesn’t God bless those ones, who know?
The important part about this way of thinking is that God gives us each enough so that we can attain Heaven. *But we have the choice as to whether to pick up the gift. *
Yeah… just like you all believe that God never puts a too heavy burden on people. Check out the suicide statistics. Unfortunately what you all believe has no bearing on reality.
If Christ mentions the fact that those are blessed who have not seen and yet believe, then this point must be important, and it is. There are two parts: one the assurance that faith is a gift from God, but the other that we have some choice in the matter. God does not overwhelm us so that we have no choice; God allows us to freely choose to enter into a relationship with Him.
Knowledge of God’s existence would not remove our freedom. It would make our choice a “rational” one. If one positively knows that there is this “someone” who can be accepted or rejected, then one can make an informed choice.

One of the most ludicrous teaching of Christianity that one gains actual knowledge about God’s existence in the very moment when his freedom to choose is removed. We are all given a “choice” when we literally wear a blindfold, when we do not have proof about God’s existence, but as soon as we have real proof, the freedom to choose is gone. And you don’t understand that this requires a “blind faith”?
 
I have never seen a correct deductive chain. All the deductions were “tainted” with logical errors and fallacies.
OK… ?
I reject this. Read the post directly above for details.
See my other post for response.
We not wish to be “blessed”, we need assurance. Besides. why does this “blessing” dependent on ignorance? Why doesn’t God bless those ones, who know?
Do you not think it was a blessing for St Thomas to travel with and learn from Christ for 3 years? We are blessed in many different ways-- Christ was rebuking Thomas for his lack of faith which had been preceded by 3 years with Christ, not saying that Thomas was not blessed at all.
Yeah… just like you all believe that God never puts a too heavy burden on people.
What we believe is that God sends His help when a heavy burden falls upon someone.
Check out the suicide statistics. Unfortunately what you all believe has no bearing on reality.
I have had friends who committed suicide, and offer sympathy if you have had the same experience.

First, the Church recognizes that sometimes people commit suicide at a time when their mind is affected by recognized or unrecognized mental illness.

Second, in considering the matter of a generic sort of suicide, one must also consider that others who have gone through the same or even a worse experience, have *not *committed suicide. Suicide is not necessarily indicative of anything except that the person who committed the act was either unbalanced or was not thinking in a way conducive to living through the experience. Possibly most people who commit suicide are mentally ill at the time.
One of the most ludicrous teaching of Christianity that one gains actual knowledge about God’s existence in the very moment when his freedom to choose is removed. We are all given a “choice” when we literally wear a blindfold, when we do not have proof about God’s existence, but as soon as we have real proof, the freedom to choose is gone. And you don’t understand that this requires a “blind faith”?
Are you saying that when one has sufficient evidence, one no longer has a choice?

This is simply not true! God was incarnate, walking on the earth, teaching and performing miracles and “His own knew Him not.” People have witnessed miracles, and made up stories of how they weren’t really true.

It is not true one no longer has a choice. The fact that we always have a choice is well-understood in Catholicism where we accomodate that reality with the sacraments of Confession and Last Rites.
 
Pretty much. It is possible, but irrational to call any beliefs for which there is not 100% Cartesian certainty “faith”. Indeed such an approach is very frequently introduced by apologists, but they simply like to wash away the differences between levels of certainty.

In the absence of full certainty, one can estimate just how probable the claim is. To assert that the belief of “the car will start tomorrow” and the belief of “a three days old corpse will come back to life” to be both “articles of faith” removes the apologist from rational consideration. It is possible that the apologist is so dumb that he does not understand the difference, but I think that is very unlikely. It is much more likely that he can see the difference, but admitting it would deprive him of the “defense”… “but your beliefs are also based upon faith”!

One can establish a few semi-arbitrary limits, based upon the available evidence. By the way, evidence is something that does not have to be accepted a-priori, and what is not dependent on authority or mere hear-say. Evidence is a fact, or a procedure, which one can employ and reach the conclusion that the claim correctly describes reality. As such we can say that if the evidence gives a 90% or better assurance, then the phrase “reasonable expectation” is indeed correct. If the evidence gives less than 10% assurance, it is properly called “blind faith”. Somewhere in-between we can draw more lines for finer granulation.
Imagine that you went back in time 2000 years ago and told people about your life now. You would describe “wagons” that go several times faster than a race horse… with no animal attached.

Can you imagine the reaction? How could that be? your listeners would murmur.

How can that be? Because there is a form of energy about which they know nothing.

In the same way, there is a form of energy about which you know nothing, and you refuse to believe in it because the only proof of its existence is in the past.

Imagine Mary and Martha, weeping because their brother Lazarus has died. Christ finally arrives 4 days after Lazarus was buried. He calls, and Lazarus arises and emerges from the tomb, still clothed in the burial cloths.

*This is a fact. *It is a fact that you do not believe because you do not believe that there exists a supernatural power which could cause this to exist.

It’s actually kind of odd… your disbelief is circular! You do not believe in God, so you dismiss any evidence of His existence.

But to get back to Lazarus–the raising of Lazarus from the dead is a fact. In fact, this event occurred to show that Christ had a power that was beyond that of anyone else, to show that He is God, Who does have the power of death, and of life. Yes, it is true that the creator of the universe can raise a man 4 days in the grave from the dead.

Now, you may ask why I believe that this event is a fact. Well, why do you believe anything that occurred before you were born is true? Why do you believe that your parents met the way they said they did, that your great-grandfather was a pirate or a colonel or a farmhand or a banker?

Because people you trusted told you. Because you have no reason to distrust these people.

In the same way, I believe that Christ raised Lazarus from the dead–I trust those who told me because so much of what they tell me can be verified, or hangs together so well, or is otherwise very reasonable to believe.

And I have no reason to distrust these people, who have told me so much that is true, in this area.

An apologist will not use your faith that your car will start as being the *same *as his faith that God exists, but as an analogy. We use analogies as a way of explanation from something familiar to something new.

I recently had so much faith that my car would start that I got all ready to leave, assured my children were ready to leave, got us all into the car. Before I turned the key, I had faith. Once I turned the key and it started, I had evidence.

Now I am telling you this, and you probably believe me, right? Because I have no reason to lie.

It is indeed unlikely that a man could raise a man from the dead. But it is not unlikely that the creator of the universe could do so, is it?

How else could Christ give us evidence of His divinity? You seem to want Him to come to you personally and do something equally evidential just so that you will believe.

But why should He? He came to earth, He lived and taught and cured and performed other miracles.

But you because you don’t see the actual evidence, you reject the fact that Lazarus was raised from the dead as evidence *because *it is humanly impossible.

Thus you reject all proof of God, of Christ’s divinity because any proof of a being greater than human would necessarily have to be beyond human ability, but you reject it *because *it is beyond human ability.

And even if you saw a miracle happen before your very eyes, it might be that you would discount it on the same grounds; you wouldn’t be the first or the last.
 
Yes, it WOULD be, if the process would not contain logical fallacies.
The process does not contain logical fallacies. If something like Aquinas’s First Way is wrong, it would rather be because the premises are false, not because the conclusion does not follow from the premises. If they actually contained logical fallacies, defending them would be rather hopeless. (They are sometimes charged to commit the fallacy of composition and a few other informal fallacies, but such charges are generally based on misunderstandings of the argument, and since they are informal fallacies, would require additional supporting argumentation.)
But in that case there would be no need for faith.
Not at all. Not all truths of the Catholic faith can be known through philosophical argument. The identification of something like the Unmoved Mover with the Christian God of revelation is also an act of faith. It is an act of faith which is, however, not baseless and arbitrary.
I don’t know which definition of “faith” you employ, but I use the one from Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” And this kind of faith is definitely antithetical to reason.
Believing without seeing is not believing without evidence. I have never seen many objects of study of specialized sciences (subatomic particles, my own internal organs), but I know by their effects that they are there.
 
Are you saying that when one has sufficient evidence, one no longer has a choice?
On the very contrary! I say that one only has a meaningful choice if one has all the pertinent information. It is the teaching of Christianity that at the moment of death, one cannot choose God any more, that one cannot exercise his free will. You stated that God does NOT manifest himself, so that we can choose whether to believe in him or not. I answered that only if one knows that God exists, can one make a meaningful selection whether to love or choose God or not.

This is what you said before:
There are two parts: one the assurance that faith is a gift from God, but the other that we have some choice in the matter. God does not overwhelm us so that we have no choice; God allows us to freely choose to enter into a relationship with Him.

And, of course one cannot enter a relationship if the very existence of the other party is not established beyond any doubt.
This is simply not true! God was incarnate, walking on the earth, teaching and performing miracles and “His own knew Him not.” People have witnessed miracles, and made up stories of how they weren’t really true.

It is not true one no longer has a choice. The fact that we always have a choice is well-understood in Catholicism where we accomodate that reality with the sacraments of Confession and Last Rites.
Please, leave mythology and faith out of this.
 
The process does not contain logical fallacies. If something like Aquinas’s First Way is wrong, it would rather be because the premises are false, not because the conclusion does not follow from the premises. If they actually contained logical fallacies, defending them would be rather hopeless. (They are sometimes charged to commit the fallacy of composition and a few other informal fallacies, but such charges are generally based on misunderstandings of the argument, and since they are informal fallacies, would require additional supporting argumentation.)
Informal fallacies are also fallacies. 🙂 It is true that ALL the prerequisites, premises of Aquinas’ proofs are not established, they are simply unfounded assertions. Yes, I am aware of the introduction of “efficient” causation (as opposed to the inefficient causation?), but that is merely a word game. Causation is exactly as undefined outside the universe as the direction of north is undefined at the north pole.
Not at all. Not all truths of the Catholic faith can be known through philosophical argument. The identification of something like the Unmoved Mover with the Christian God of revelation is also an act of faith. It is an act of faith which is, however, not baseless and arbitrary.
But we are not talking about ALL the alleged “truths” of Catholicism, only about “establishing the existence of the christian (catholic) God, without employing faith (on fully rational grounds)”.
Believing without seeing is not believing without evidence. I have never seen many objects of study of specialized sciences (subatomic particles, my own internal organs), but I know by their effects that they are there.
Indeed, “explicit seeing” in not required. Evidence does not mean “literal seeing”. The existence of your internal organs, however, can be established via an x-ray procedure (or by seppuku, but that is counter-indicated), and the existence of the sub-atomic particles can be established by science - a repeatable, objective set of experiments. And THAT is missing from the religious claims. Their evidence is only hearsay, based upon the alleged infallibility of the authority of the catholic church. That is NOT evidence as we know it. (Before someone brings up the objection that there are historical “truths”, which are only established by hearsay evidence, I wish to point out that God is supposed to be alive NOW, and there is no reason to refer to alleged past events). “Hic Rodos, hic salta!”
 
Imagine that you went back in time 2000 years ago and told people about your life now. You would describe “wagons” that go several times faster than a race horse… with no animal attached.

Can you imagine the reaction? How could that be? your listeners would murmur.
Don’t “talk”. Show it. Acts speak louder than words.
*This is a fact. *
No, my friend. This is a legend or mythology. Unsupported hearsay.
It is a fact that you do not believe because you do not believe that there exists a supernatural power which could cause this to exist.
This is the line that all snake-oil peddlers employ. First you need to have faith, and then you can interpret correctly. The skeptics only consider the evidence which does not require a-priori acceptance of the final result. I recall the argument of a theologian who said: “The last thing you want is to have evidence FOR God’s existence. You need to accept that God exists, and then you will be in the position to search evidence OF God’s existence.” This is intellectually dishonest. Looking for supporting evidence and discarding the evidence that contradicts what you believe.
 
Don’t “talk”. Show it. Acts speak louder than words.
Oh, right! Time traveler returns to distant past and *builds and automobile! *
No, my friend. This is a legend or mythology. Unsupported hearsay.
This is the conclusion *you *have reached; it is not a fact. It is not a fact that the raising of Lazarus is a myth or legend.

OTOH, my conclusion differs. I have looked at the *same *evidence and concluded that it is *true *that Christ raised Lazarus from the dead.
This is the line that all snake-oil peddlers employ. First you need to have faith, and then you can interpret correctly.
OTOH, I do go to the doctor and he gives me pills which he says will help me. If I have faith in the doctor, I go buy and take the pills. Then I find out whether or not they will work.

The difference is that I have faith in the doctor and no faith in the snake-oil peddler.
The skeptics only consider the evidence which does not require a-priori acceptance of the final result.
On the other side of this description is my description of this process’s being circular.

In order for the skeptic to believe, he would need to be presented with evidence which showed that a supernatural being existed.

Any evidence of a supernatural being would necessarily have to be supernatural.

The skeptic rejects all evidence beyond the natural.

Thus, the skeptic rejects all evidence of the supernatural a priori and can thus never be shown evidence that the supernatural exists.

(I see now this interesting fact: this was all discussed in the Gospels; Christ knew and told His followers that it would happen.)
I recall the argument of a theologian who said: “The last thing you want is to have evidence FOR God’s existence. You need to accept that God exists, and then you will be in the position to search evidence OF God’s existence.”
Well, I have no idea who this guy is or what the context is of his statement, so I can’t really comment on the statement itself, altho of itself… well, I would not have put what he seems to be trying to say in the way he did.
This is intellectually dishonest. Looking for supporting evidence and discarding the evidence that contradicts what you believe.
So you would say that rejecting evidence that contradicts your belief and searching for evidence which supports your belief is intellectually dishonest?

And yet you reject all evidence of a supernatural force on the grounds that it is not really a supernatural act; that it is a myth or legend, don’t you?

What would work as evidence of God’s existence for you?
 
Oh, right! Time traveler returns to distant past and *builds and automobile! *
Nope… carries that automobile in his time machine. 🙂
This is the conclusion *you *have reached; it is not a fact. It is not a fact that the raising of Lazarus is a myth or legend.
It is the most reasonable conclusion. If you say that dead people can be resurrected, let the demonstration happen here and now. There is an old Greek story about a guy who boasted that he performed a really big jump some time ago on the island of Rodos. People answered him: “Hic Rodos, hic salta!” (This is Rodos, jump here!) Just as I said about your hypothetical time traveler, “words are cheap”, acts count.
OTOH, I do go to the doctor and he gives me pills which he says will help me. If I have faith in the doctor, I go buy and take the pills. Then I find out whether or not they will work.
I am very tired of this “twisting” of words. Reasonable expectation is NOT faith, no matter how many times it is asserted.
In order for the skeptic to believe, he would need to be presented with evidence which showed that a supernatural being existed.

Any evidence of a supernatural being would necessarily have to be supernatural.
Wrong! The evidence must be presented in this world, therefore it is NOT supernatural.
And yet you reject all evidence of a supernatural force on the grounds that it is not really a supernatural act; that it is a myth or legend, don’t you?
Hearsay is NOT evidence. Show me facts, not stories.
What would work as evidence of God’s existence for you?
Lots of things. The best would be a personal manifestation, where we could ask God to resolve the “problem of evil” - for example. Or I could grab three dice, and he could predict the result of the next roll, which will happen in the next 5 minutes - without interfering with my freedom. Or he could enumerate the names of all the people who will die in the next 10 minutes on the interstates, due to traffic accidents… There are lots of “logically possible” scenarios - which could prove God’s existence. But none of those can be “second hand stories”. As I said, I am open to real, actual, physical evidence. God’s alleged omnipotence can enable him to provide objective, physical evidence.
 
Nope… carries that automobile in his time machine. 🙂
:lol:.
I am very tired of this “twisting” of words. Reasonable expectation is NOT faith, no matter how many times it is asserted.
What is the difference between reasonable expectation and reasonable faith?
Lots of things. The best would be a personal manifestation, where we could ask God to resolve the “problem of evil” - for example. Or I could grab three dice, and he could predict the result of the next roll, which will happen in the next 5 minutes - without interfering with my freedom. Or he could enumerate the names of all the people who will die in the next 10 minutes on the interstates, due to traffic accidents… There are lots of “logically possible” scenarios - which could prove God’s existence. But none of those can be “second hand stories”. As I said, I am open to real, actual, physical evidence. God’s alleged omnipotence can enable him to provide objective, physical evidence.
OK, so if God appeared to you prsonally and did all this, then you would believe, but before that, you would not believe.

So what about everyone else? Do you think everyone else should receive a personal visit and personal prophecies from God? Each and every human being should receive a personal visit?

BTW, I suggest you find out what hearsay means.
 
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