Why "The Fall" Fails

[valueperson]

Um. Anybody else care to weigh in here?

 

[buffalo]

Not necessary.

 

[valueperson]

…

 

[DavWan]

Then your argument is that originally there was both perfection and disease A. If not, then disease A had to arise from perfection. So you’d be arguing that perfection contains disease.

And that’s what the OP states, that original perfection is just a myth.

That doesn’t follow, though the analogy you are objecting to isn’t perfect.

Adam and Eve were created in a state of grace. They had the ability to resist evil. They also had the free choice of will. Therefore they could abuse this state and lose it.

To use the disease analogy, the existence of the disease was potential and could not have been picked up accidentally. As long as man chose to use his free will as God intended, it was right and good. However, it could have been picked up by willing it.

How does God and a human in a state of grace differ?

God is perfectly Good by His nature. What He decrees to be good is good because it reflects His nature, and not because of His arbitrary will.

Man was created to reflect the goodness of God and was given free will. When man chose to disobey God, he rejected the perfect nature.

If you think of a mirror image, any cracks that appear on the mirror does not mean the reflected image was originally flawed, but that it became flawed when the crack was added.

Remember also that evil is not a positive force, but a lack in good. Until Adam and Eve chose to sin, that lack did not exist.

The counterpart to Adam and Eve was Mary. She too was created as a reflection of God in a state of Grace. She too had free will, and unlike Adam and Eve, she did not choose to sin.

 

[fhansen]

Our faith teaches that any perfection man possessed he received from God and in turning away from or rejecting God, man lost the ability to remain in that state. That state included continuous happiness. The lesson is simply that man needs God. The reason for the lesson is that man thinks he doesn’t need God. So the world we live in now is one where, for all practical purposes, God is gone and we can see how well we live, how well we love, how happy we are on our own in spite of the fact that suffering and death, certainties that we’re absolutely powerless against, stare us in the face everyday. Man was designed to walk with God. Man needs God, whether he believes in Him or not.

 

[fhansen]

If the fall isn’t real, then it must be natural for man to kill, rape, torture, lie, cheat, steal, gossip, back-bite, envy. We must be naturally self-righteous, hyper-sensitive to being called wrong, ashamed of our bodies, arrogant, covetous, possessive, materialistic, selfish, petty, self-conscious, bigoted, angst-ridden, out of sync with ourselves and nature.

Maybe none of this describes you but many would agree that these are traits or tendencies common to the human race in small or large measure and I assert that they often exist in us to completely unreasonable degrees. Man’s inhumanity to man makes the most vicious animal attacks look angelic by comparison.

But if all of this is normal and there is no such thing as evil or objective morality, then of course we could never have any right or reason to express righteous indignation or moral outrage towards any type of human behavior whatsoever. In fact moral outrage can’t even be an authentic human disposition-it must be affected whenever we see it.

 

[Mike_Dye]

I am still trying to find where it was ever stated that man is or has ever been perfect. If that cannot be shown all of the previous posts are just addressing a subject that does not exist.

 

[crowonsnow]

I am still trying to find where it was ever stated that man is or has ever been perfect. If that cannot be shown all of the previous posts are just addressing a subject that does not exist.

What was wrong and imperfect with the Garden of Eden before sin? If there wasn’t anything wrong or imperfect about this paradise, how did it come to contain sin?

 

[crowonsnow]

If the fall isn’t real, then it must be natural for man to kill, rape, torture, lie, cheat, steal, gossip, back-bite, envy. We must be naturally self-righteous, hyper-sensitive to being called wrong, ashamed of our bodies, arrogant, covetous, possessive, materialistic, selfish, petty, self-conscious, bigoted, angst-ridden, out of sync with ourselves and nature.

Maybe none of this describes you but many would agree that these are traits or tendencies common to the human race in small or large measure and I assert that they often exist in us to completely unreasonable degrees. Man’s inhumanity to man makes the most vicious animal attacks look angelic by comparison.

But if all of this is normal and there is no such thing as evil or objective morality, then of course we could never have any right or reason to express righteous indignation or moral outrage towards any type of human behavior whatsoever. In fact moral outrage can’t even be an authentic human disposition-it must be affected whenever we see it.

Of course it’s natural for humanity to possess all those characteristics. But just because something is natural doesn’t make it desirable. Ebola is natural.

What you fail to recognize is that it’s natural to not lie, not steal, not hate, etc.

 

[Benadam]

I am still trying to find where it was ever stated that man is or has ever been perfect. If that cannot be shown all of the previous posts are just addressing a subject that does not exist.

We glorify God while in the state He created us in. God is perfect can He do anything imperfect?

 

[Benadam]

If there was no fall then one has to admit to a creator in order to hold the belief that man transcends himself. Higher states of life are either pre-existent or creations of man.

 

[fhansen]

Of course it’s natural for humanity to possess all those characteristics. But just because something is natural doesn’t make it desirable. Ebola is natural.

What you fail to recognize is that it’s natural to not lie, not steal, not hate, etc.

So you’re saying that lying, stealing, hating is natural for some but not others and that morality is really only arrived at by majority consensus?

 

[fhansen]

What was wrong and imperfect with the Garden of Eden before sin? If there wasn’t anything wrong or imperfect about this paradise, how did it come to contain sin?

Only God is perfect and His creation is inherently less than perfect by virtue of being “less” than or inferior to Him. Freewill allows for the possibility of this “flaw” expressing itself in the universe. But creation is worth it even with this potential and even with the vast amount of imperfection evident by the evil which now exists which resulted from man opting for freedom from Gods will-an imperfect choice. Man can know God and His will-if he’s willing.

 

[crowonsnow]

So you’re saying that lying, stealing, hating is natural for some but not others and that morality is really only arrived at by majority consensus?

A person is no one thing all the time. Just because a person tells a lie doesn’t make them incapable of being truthful. People naturally do both.

Only God is perfect and His creation is inherently less than perfect by virtue of being “less” than or inferior to Him. Freewill allows for the possibility of this “flaw” expressing itself in the universe. But creation is worth it even with this potential and even with the vast amount of imperfection evident by the evil which now exists which resulted from man opting for freedom from Gods will-an imperfect choice. Man can know God and His will-if he’s willing.

So the garden of Eden was imperfect because God made it that way. That’s my point, that there’s no difference between the source of perfection and imperfection. It’s the same.

Something can’t be pure and contaminated at the same time. You’re saying that purity purposely contaminated Eden. That can’t happen unless this purity is already contaminated. Therefore perfection was never real except to pretend it was real. Man was created imperfect.

So no Fall is possible if Eden was already contaminated.

 

[Neithan]

So no Fall is possible if Eden was already contaminated.

If someone falls from a cliff, are you going to say “no Fall was possible because you weren’t on the peak of the mountain” ? Makes no sense.

Eden was not Heaven, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t closer to perfection than the rest of the world. There was still a Fall.

 

[crowonsnow]

If someone falls from a cliff, are you going to say “no Fall was possible because you weren’t on the peak of the mountain” ? Makes no sense.

Eden was not Heaven, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t closer to perfection than the rest of the world. There was still a Fall.

But that’s not how it’s taught. Eden was perfect. Then man sinned and ruined everything. But if you’d like to make a case that Eden wasn’t perfect be my guest. An earlier poster said things were perfect in heaven. But we know the angels in heaven became devils so things couldn’t have been perfect there either.

And that’s my point, that there is no original perfection.

But if you’d like to make a case for a limited fall that might be interesting, and of course more realistic.

 

[Benadam]

crowonsnow, I think you are confusing the word impeccable with perfect. Impeccable means incapable of being flawed. Perfection only means that when it is God. Human perfection never meant that.

 

[crowonsnow]

crowonsnow, I think you are confusing the word impeccable with perfect. Impeccable means incapable of being flawed. Perfection only means that when it is God. Human perfection never meant that.

We don’t have to be word lawyers. We can just say that Eden was or wasn’t “all good.”

Now if it wasn’t all good to begin with, as some posters seem to be indicating, a fall was built in. No surprise there.

And obviously if it was made “all good” it could never have become “fallen.”

So claiming there is some fall for which people can be held responsible is just silly. If I build something that I know is going to break I can’t blame it for becoming broken.

 

[Neithan]

But that’s not how it’s taught. Eden was perfect. Then man sinned and ruined everything. But if you’d like to make a case that Eden wasn’t perfect be my guest. An earlier poster said things were perfect in heaven. But we know the angels in heaven became devils so things couldn’t have been perfect there either.

And that’s my point, that there is no original perfection.

But if you’d like to make a case for a limited fall that might be interesting, and of course more realistic.

You seem to be inventing your own theology. Of course the Fall was ‘limited.’ A fall implies something fallen from and fallen to. How could there be an ‘unlimited’ fall?

The angels were tested before the creation of Man, and those who fell never had the Beatific Vision, so we can say they were not yet in Heaven either, or at least not the innermost part of it. Perfection is in the Beatific Vision.

One reason why the Easter Vigil Exsultet calls the Fall a “Happy Fault” is that it gave us Christ as a Redeemer, who makes perfection possible for us. We now have the means to gain something that far surpasses Eden. Adam and Eve were not perfect, they were innocent.

 

[crowonsnow]

You seem to be inventing your own theology. Of course the Fall was ‘limited.’ A fall implies something fallen from and fallen to. How could there be an ‘unlimited’ fall?

The angels were tested before the creation of Man, and those who fell never had the Beatific Vision, so we can say they were not yet in Heaven either, or at least not the innermost part of it. Perfection is in the Beatific Vision.

One reason why the Easter Vigil Exsultet calls the Fall a “Happy Fault” is that it gave us Christ as a Redeemer, who makes perfection possible for us. We now have the means to gain something that far surpasses Eden. Adam and Eve were not perfect, they were innocent.

That’s ridiculous. Like I’ve been saying, it makes the fall laughable. You’ve just argued that the sin in Eden was a happy sin because it made redemption necessary.

That means Eden was just a planned setup, free will or no free will.

And if Eden has been redeemed why is it still broken? Obviously it was always broken, my point in the OP.