Why the fighting within the Catholic Church?

[curtishouse29]

I don’t expect this question to be answered completely but I just need some semblance of an answer. Why is it that it seems that members of the Catholic Church can’t seem to agree on anything anymore? Even on issues that are clearly answered in the CCC and/or Bible, it seems there is fighting about that as well! Is there any end in sight? What could we possibly do to help remedy the situation and become united as the Body of Christ once again? Thanks for listening and God bless you all.

Curtis

 

[Tietjen]

I don’t expect this question to be answered completely but I just need some semblance of an answer. Why is it that it seems that members of the Catholic Church can’t seem to agree on anything anymore? Even on issues that are clearly answered in the CCC and/or Bible, it seems there is fighting about that as well! Is there any end in sight? What could we possibly do to help remedy the situation and become united as the Body of Christ once again? Thanks for listening and God bless you all.

Curtis

Without knowing specifically what you are referring to, I have to say that we are united; at least as much as we have ever been. Throughout history, there have been heresies and schisms that pop up. In addition, when you have a membership of over 1 billion, there will of course be disagreements, but when everything is said and done, we are still Catholic.

 

[Pacbox]

Some clarification is needed. What do you mean that member can’t seem to agree? When have they ever agreed? I guess I just don’t understand what you are saying and looking for some clarification. We’re people. If we all the believed the exact same thing in the exact same way and acted the exact same way, we’d be robots. Just because members don’t agree doesn’t mean the Catholic Church doesn’t exist or hold water or is wrong. It just means that people are people. And what fighting? People hold all sorts of opinions and views. That’s people for you.

 

[curtishouse29]

Forgive me for not being more specific in my initial question. I have just been getting frustrated lately about some theological issues for the most part that are laid out perfectly in scripture and the CCC but, for some reason, our brothers and sisters in Christ are still fighting to try to prove their point. A perfect point is divorce. It is obviously a sin…It’s even a sacrament! But I know of quite a few people who are trying to convince others that getting a divorce isnt a sin! That is just so anti-Biblical that it just hurts my soul, you know? What can we do to help people come together in an issue that we should all be together in like being against divorce because our Blessed Lord explicitly says so. I hope that clarifies a little bit more. God bless.

Curtis

 

[Antegin]

I don’t expect this question to be answered completely but I just need some semblance of an answer. Why is it that it seems that members of the Catholic Church can’t seem to agree on anything anymore?

Curtis

My dear Curtis,
Your complaint is not a new one. Infact, it has plagued the Church even as Christ walked the earth.
In Matthew 20, the ambitious mother of James andJohn tries to secure a better place for her sons with Jesus.
In Matthew 24, speculation about the end of the world was rampant even with Jesus in their midst.
In 25, Jesus tells them to live their lives like everyday was the last, In the same breath he tells us not to be alarmed by calamities, alot of these will happen before the end. 2000 years later, we are still expecting the end of the world tomorrow with each tragic event that claims innocent lives.
In Mark 8, Jesus asks Who am I? His apostles have different answers but Peter gets it right
by Revelation. This is why Peter is chosen as the first pope.
And incase you should think things got any better after the Holy Spirit arrived, in his letter to the Galatians Paul details a rather public spat he had with the same first Pope who said one thing as it was revealed to him, (namely, salvation was through Jesus Christ, whose new covenant superceded the law) but then behaved contrary to the doctrine he taught infallibly. (Gal 2 10-20) Opps, his bad…
In his second letter to Timothy, Paul says hi, goodbye, and the rest of his letter is about dispute!
The disputes you see going on in the Church are neither new or even evil. Peter had been an observant Jew all his life and found confort in the rituals. I have participated in conservative rites and they really are quite beautiful and can see how giving up the customs of his youth would have been difficult.
Similarly, it is difficult to believe when a marriage is irretrievably broken that one can not take another spouse and must remain celebate. As a child of a broken marriage and a remarriage, I saw the Churches wisdom in this where none of my parents did. So people like the Kennedy’s, Cary’s, my own parents will put their “spin” on divorce and call it an annulment instead of what it really is: pulling the wool over the local bishop’s eyes.
This does not change the validity of the Churches teaching, it just shows that the Church of Peter, Paul and Timothy is the Church of Benedict, John Paul and James Weurl(our local bishop.)It’s all the Church of Christ.

 

[Pacbox]

Forgive me for not being more specific in my initial question. I have just been getting frustrated lately about some theological issues for the most part that are laid out perfectly in scripture and the CCC but, for some reason, our brothers and sisters in Christ are still fighting to try to prove their point. A perfect point is divorce. It is obviously a sin…It’s even a sacrament! But I know of quite a few people who are trying to convince others that getting a divorce isnt a sin! That is just so anti-Biblical that it just hurts my soul, you know? What can we do to help people come together in an issue that we should all be together in like being against divorce because our Blessed Lord explicitly says so. I hope that clarifies a little bit more. God bless.

Curtis

So if a woman is being abused by her husband, she has to stay because divorce is a sin? Her husband beating her is not a sin? See, the church allows for separation and CIVIL divorce. The couple are still married in the eyes of the Church.

An annullment, which is an incorrect term, which is really a Decree of Nullity, declares that a valid sacramental marriage never took place. A marriage tribunal set up by the Bishop and based on Canon Law determines, through testimonial evidence and Canon Law, if indeed the marriage is valid or not. Are there cases where a divorce should not occur? Probably. I don’t know people’s hearts and neither do you.

See, the problem I see isn’t so much the Church’s teaching on marriage and divorce. It’s the world’s view that if you lose interest or the person isn’t sexually compatible or don’t feel anything, it is acceptable to get a divorce. The world sees commitment and effort in a relationship as a bad thing. It wants people to flutter from one thing to the next to the next seeking that elusive thing that the world calls happiness. What they are searching for and don’t know is that they are searching for Jesus to fill that hole in their. Some people will figure that out. Others will keep looking in all the wrong places.

 

[curtishouse29]

So if a woman is being abused by her husband, she has to stay because divorce is a sin? Her husband beating her is not a sin? See, the church allows for separation and CIVIL divorce. The couple are still married in the eyes of the Church.

Is this talked about in the CCC anywhere? I definitely see your point and if there is some official church document that eloborates on this, I would definitely be glad to read it. I just want to follow what is in accordance with Jesus Christ and His Bride the Catholic Church; no more and definitely no less. God bless.

Curtis

 

[lak611]

Is this talked about in the CCC anywhere? I definitely see your point and if there is some official church document that eloborates on this, I would definitely be glad to read it. I just want to follow what is in accordance with Jesus Christ and His Bride the Catholic Church; no more and definitely no less. God bless.

Curtis

From the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

 

[curtishouse29]

From the Code of Canon Law:

Thanks for that…God bless.

 

[Pacbox]

Is this talked about in the CCC anywhere? I definitely see your point and if there is some official church document that eloborates on this, I would definitely be glad to read it. I just want to follow what is in accordance with Jesus Christ and His Bride the Catholic Church; no more and definitely no less. God bless.

Curtis

From the Catechism:

1649 Yet there are some situations in which living together becomes practically impossible for a variety of reasons. In such cases the Church permits the physical separation of the couple and their living apart. The spouses do not cease to be husband and wife before God and so are not free to contract a new union. In this difficult situation, the best solution would be, if possible, reconciliation. The Christian community is called to help these persons live out their situation in a Christian manner and in fidelity to their marriage bond which remains indissoluble.159

This is what I was talking about in regards to separation. Even though civil divorce is not implicitly mentioned, it is allowed to remedy cases like the one I mentioned above. The Church does not want someone to stay in an abusive situation where their phsyical health and safety are at risk.

1650 Today there are numerous Catholics in many countries who have recourse to civil divorce and contract new civil unions. In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ - "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery"160 the Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was. If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God’s law. Consequently, they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists. For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities. Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ, and who are committed to living in complete continence.

If you read the sections on marriage in the Catechism, there are requirements that have to be met for the marriage to be considered viable (actually possible) and sacramental. If the marriage is valid and yet the couple civily divorce (divorce is always civil; there is not such thing as a ‘Catholic divorce’), they are still married sacramentally. Civilly, they are not married in the eyes of the state.

There are two ‘legal’ aspects of marriage, civil and sacramental. Civil means that the marriage is recognized by the state and is accorded those rights that the state has set out for marriage. Sacramental means that since matrimony is a sacrament, sanctifying graces are confered upon both spouses that allows them to live out their vocation as spouses and parents. The spouses are husband and wife before God unless it is proven that certain impediments were present at the time the marriage took place.

Decrees of nullity are sought to determine if a couple were sacramentally married and that there were no impediments to the marriage taking place. They do not focus on what happened AFTER the marriage broke down though they do occur as a result of that breakdown. The marriage tribunal looks at the spouses at the time they were married (so all the time up to the actual moment of taking vows) to see if there were an impediments that would have prevented the couple from marrying in the first place. If an impediment is found and has not been corrected (the use of birth control being one), then a decree of nullity may be issued.

Some people do not want to seek a decree because they do not want to examine what they did or see their faults. They do not want to take responsibility. They think that the matter is between them and God. And they don’t agree with the Church’s teaching on divorce and remarriage and birth control. So they leave to find another church that fits their world view and that allows them to remarry without determining if they were validly married in the first. Marriages are considered valid unless a tribunal says otherwise.

Search the Liturgy and Sacraments forum for previous posts on annulments for further information.

 

[vince2paul]

Because we are all humans, we have mind and freewill. Unfortunately, some people think that they can change the Church or compromise the Church’s teachings.

Even worse, in my parish, most of the people don’t know the Church teachings and they want to run the Church as & when they like it. Some people think, if you own a lot of money, you can control the parish priests. Unfortunately, it’s not the case with the recent parish priest, thus there are conflicts.

I think it’s difficult to make everyone AGREES on all the Church teachings. I think it’s one of the consequences when God entrust human with freewill.

Of course, we could say that if you don’t agree with the Church teachings, go start for own church. But some people just want to change the Church, which unfortunately will never happen.

One of the reasons they give is that the Church changed a lot in the past, e.g. the Mass, but they don’t understand that it’s not really changing.

Am I out of point? hm…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t expect this question to be answered completely but I just need some semblance of an answer. Why is it that it seems that members of the Catholic Church can’t seem to agree on anything anymore? Even on issues that are clearly answered in the CCC and/or Bible, it seems there is fighting about that as well! Is there any end in sight? What could we possibly do to help remedy the situation and become united as the Body of Christ once again? Thanks for listening and God bless you all.

Curtis

We have to be careful about our own literal interpretation of Scripture and the CCC. We have our Bishops and priest as our teachers. Go by what they teach, not everyday parishioners, and neo-Catholics, who have an agenda of their own that they’re serving.

Jim

 

[Stratiotes]

Funny - it seems to me the original question was, “why can’t we agree?” Then, there were assurances that we were in unity followed by questions about specifics - as soon as something specific came up, there was immediate disagreement. I think, perhaps, that is the reason - specifics touch on us personally. If I think I have or a friend has reason for divorce, I’m going to be a little touchy about the divorce question. If I am poor and tempted to steal, then I am going to find the definition of “stealing” too black-n-white to my liking. I think it is because I know my own weakness that sin is such a touchy subject and one that causes an immediate knee-jerk response when the topic is mentioned.

It is no wonder we disagree. It is more amazing that all of us, plagued by our own pet sins, can agree on anything at all.