Why the Hate for an American Thanksgiving?

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First there was a thread - drawing from the ultra-conservative “Horvat” website - attempting to prove that the first American Thanksgiving was really an invention of the Spanish conquistadores. Then something similar gets brought up in the Apologist forum. And then it gets pointed out how anti-Catholic the Pilgrims were (which is, of course, true).

Is this a seasonal thing? As Catholics should we feel an obligation to detach ourselves from the “traditional” American Thanksgiving celebration in November?
 
how is pointing out aspects of our country’s history expressing “hate” for “an American Thanksgiving?”. If someone wishes to correct popular misinformation about the so-called first thanksgiving that makes them a history buff, not a hater. Not a lot is known about either of those celebrations that could claim the title of “first Thanksgiving” so it is fair game in any case. Relax.
 
Thanksgiving Day is one of the expressions of American Christianity (and not just simple religious spirit, though it’s become that, too) that can profitably be used by the Church.

When Patriarch St. Tikhon was Russian Orthodox archbishop in San Francisco, he directed that ALL parishes in the USA celebrate the Votive Divine Liturgy of Thanksgiving on that day with a Moleben (Prayer Service) afterwards concluding with the Hymn of St. Ambrose (Te Deum). He ALSO (with permission from the Holy Synod of Russia) dispensed from the Advent Fast those who attended the services on that day.

As most other ethnic groups erected their own hierarchies (Greek, etc), they continued this.

Note that the dispensation from the Fast is tied up with attending the Divine Liturgy.

Some Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic jurisdictions have even promulgated a proper Office (Matins and Vespers) to be used on this day.

One the same note, the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh has promulgated a proper Liturgy for Independence Day.
 
First there was a thread - drawing from the ultra-conservative “Horvat” website - attempting to prove that the first American Thanksgiving was really an invention of the Spanish conquistadores. Then something similar gets brought up in the Apologist forum. And then it gets pointed out how anti-Catholic the Pilgrims were (which is, of course, true).

Is this a seasonal thing? As Catholics should we feel an obligation to detach ourselves from the “traditional” American Thanksgiving celebration in November?
Internet discussions often get out of hand and usually lack facts. This idea that because pilgrims were anti-Catholic we must reject everything they said or did is silly. I would be careful about getting drawn into discussions with such people.

This was some 400 years ago and the political and social context was very different. All Protestants were anti-Catholic to one degree or another and most Catholics were anti-Protestant. Cherry picking the sins of others is uncharitable at best. We hate it when others point out Catholics who sin or do things we abhor and use that to unjustly tar all Catholics or the Church. The pilgrims were not devils and in fact had many positive Christian values that all could learn from.

I’ve seen this idea pop up a couple times on this forum: namely that since some of America’s English founders were anti-Catholic we should reject elements of traditional American life in whole or part. (There was a discussion about singing America the Beautiful which also mentions pilgrims.) This is being put forward (apparently) by some who believe themselves to be conservatives. It is not conservative, but radical (not to mention unpatriotic). People who attempt to do away with cherished holidays because they don’t fit with some false notion of purity are ideologues, not believers.

Anyone who gets hung up about celebrating Thanksgiving or singing America the Beautiful due to some vestigal connection to some people 400 years ago who held anti-Catholic prejudices needs help. Is this bringing us closer to God? Is this going to make us better Catholics?

jb

PS And for what it is worth, the Spanish conquistadors (who also had many admirable qualities despite the bad reputation they have been unjustly given) did not start Thankgiving. Or Memorial Day. Or Columbus Day. :rolleyes:
 
There is little you can do today without someone out there being a critic of it, from what you eat, what you drink, what kind of light bulb you use, what you should watch on TV, read, etc. etc. This is no different.

It all comes down to one person finding some peculiar “thing” about Thanksgiving they don’t like. One incident that is well documented is the theft of a cache of corn hidden by the local tribe (Narragansett) during the previous winter. This was viewed, rightfully so, as a crime by the local tribe, and many point to this as an indicator of how oppressive these white settlers were, how we’re celebrating the legacy of a theft, etc… What they don’t report is that it was done as a matter of survival and the community that benefited from that corn lived all winter with the guilt of it even though it meant their lives.

It was during the following spring and summer when they began to grow crops of their own and hunt that they met with the natives and apologized for the theft, making reparation for it. It was only then they discovered they had not taken corn out of the mouths of the natives, something their consciences pinged on them all winter for, but instead had defiled sacred ground. The corn was an offering for their buried dead.
They resolved it by pledging to provide the corn for the following winter’s offering, but admitted they didn’t know much about growing corn, but they would give whatever they could.

It is from that exchange that they were invited to observe how the natives grew their corn, including such practices as planting the seed above the parts of a fish normally discarded, such as the head. Organic fertilizer. They learned how to grow corn and had a great crop. The settlers not only repaid the corn but offered a feast in celebration of both the bumper crop AND the paying back of this debt they owed. This was the banquet to which the natives were invited and did attend. It is the commemoration of that banquet which we continue to celebrate as a tradition, though the original intent of the banquet has been substituted with emphasis only on that first part, the bounty.

I have a copy of a prayer that my grandfather read over his table in 1893, only 30 years after a Thanksgiving (meal) became an American tradition. In that prayer, he speaks of being mindful of things we do during the year that benefit us but cost others, and remembering to do something for them in return. I have always wondered if this was some kind of reference to the corn thing of that original feast in 1621.
 
Perhaps we need to include some basic facts on this particular thread in regards
to what actually occurred before and following the “first Thanksgiving” celebration.

As a Native American Indian, I would like to share some of our knowledge on this.

At the time just prior to that day of “sharing” a meal, the pilgrims were suffering from
starvation. Our Indian Peoples along the Eastern part of this country came to their
assistance with generous help of bringing seeds to grow squash, beans etc., so as
to alieve the pilgrims great suffering. Our Peoples also taught them how to grow these
“new” foods, and also gifted them with skins and furs for warmth during the harsh cold
Moons.
One Indian in particular made great efforts to help them to survive the harsh conditions
the pilgrims were living within. His name was Squanto. Great sacrifices of help were
given to these starving settlers. This is factual.
Yes, there was the “invitation” to share a meal that day we term Thanksgiving Day.
What many do not know is that a short time later,within, or less then 4 weeks following that feast sharing day,thousands of Indian People from numerous Eastern Tribes were massacred.
Many Tribes were wiped out, and to this day do not exist.What is stated here is truth.
The Conquistidor’s have absolutely NOTHING to do with Thanksgiving Day history.But,
yes that group had a great deal to do with the genocide of hundreds of thousands of
South West Pueblo Indians and California tribes, among a few of the areas that Spanish
group chose to prey upon…

One can visit numerous Tribes (there are around 500), and knock on a Tribal member’s
door on Thanksgiving Day and ask if they are enjoying their “Holiday” dinner.
Fact: Most Native American Indians on most Reservations, or one’s who live in a city
DO NOT CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING DAY. And, I suppose one woud have to stand
in our moccasin’s in order to try and understand that, or criticize that choice.

This is not stated here in order to cause conflict, but only to share fact, in a good way.

Personally, I think it is great that most folks in this country celebrate a day to eat good
foods together as family and/or friends. But I also believe it is good to know the truth,
good or bad.
God Bless All on the upcoming Day of Thanksgiving.
We do not HATE that particular day, but we do not go out of our way to acknowledge it
either.
 
I have native american friends who if given a $20 bill will ask for two $10s instead because of how much hatred Andrew Jackson displayed toward native americans. If they could know then what they know now, I am not sure they wouldn’t have killed every white on the first day they landed and burned the ships
 
I have native american friends who if given a $20 bill will ask for two $10s instead because of how much hatred Andrew Jackson displayed toward native americans. If they could know then what they know now, I am not sure they wouldn’t have killed every white on the first day they landed and burned the ships
Twenty dollar bills are just fine by me! LOL! That would buy a mighty fine turkey day
feast.😛
Lived on many Rez’s and never seen any NDN turn down a twenty because of the “art
work” printed on it.😉
 
As an American, living in Ireland with a tiny, insignificant bit of Native American lineage (Chippewa) sp?
I see the holiday as a celebration of the Native American’s spirit of humanity. Though the Europeans grossly abused these peoples I feel that history is showing how severe their degree of brutality actually was. And those wrongs can never be undone.
As a new Catholic, baptised just this year, I know that there is no way that humanity can compensate for such despicable past injustices. I believe that Thanksgiving gives us the opportunity to embrace an ideal that is pertinent to ourselves individually regardless of the past. It’s an opportunity for us to embrace the ideal in the context of humanity and unity.
As they say; the past is history, the future is a mystery, now is a gift, that’s why they call it the present. Let’s embrace that present and make a better future.
 
It is sad to see Native Americans reduce to playing the victim card to get sympathy. Instilling guilt in others is no substitute for pride in your history and culture. Worse that people invent historical atrocities to do this.

The Eastern tribes were not slaughtered within weeks of the pilgrims’ arrival. It would be odd if they had been since you’d have to explain why those same tribes were there 40 years later. Nor did the Conquistadors slaughter the pueblo Indians in enmass. In fact the Spanish and French in particular were fairly respectful of the native peoples. They married into native families and made alliances with various tribes. In New Spain, Nauhautl, the language of the Aztec empire, was an official language for documents and testimony for 100 years after the conquest. Sure the peasants were treated badly, but it was no different than how they were treated by Native rulers and the Spanish ended the gruesome practice of human sacrifice.

Indians in the New World died in large numbers of disease, something over which the Europeans had no control and no knowledge. In fact, lots of Europeans in the New World died of the same diseases only there were less of them.

What happened was part peaceful interaction and part conquest. Yes, the New World was ultimately conquered by the Europeans (with help from Native allies in many cases). There were fewer Indians and they did not have the economies to sustain long-term wars. It was a war they lost. But they were hardly hapless pacificist victims. That view of Indians is demeaning and wrong. And what happened was not genocide.

It is really too bad that a happy and good tradition like Thanksgiving has to be turned into a political football to benefit professional grievance mongers. And on a list dedicated to Catholicism no less. Wallowing in the alledged victimhood of one’s ancestors cheapens their memory and is not spiritually healthy.

jb
 
We aren’t celebrating 1620 or 1840 or any other period in our history we are giving thanks to God for the blessings bestowed upon us in 2009. Anything less just demeans the holiday.
 
It is sad to see Native Americans reduce to playing the victim card to get sympathy. Instilling guilt in others is no substitute for pride in your history and culture. Worse that people invent historical atrocities to do this.

The Eastern tribes were not slaughtered within weeks of the pilgrims’ arrival. It would be odd if they had been since you’d have to explain why those same tribes were there 40 years later. Nor did the Conquistadors slaughter the pueblo Indians in enmass. In fact the Spanish and French in particular were fairly respectful of the native peoples. They married into native families and made alliances with various tribes. In New Spain, Nauhautl, the language of the Aztec empire, was an official language for documents and testimony for 100 years after the conquest. Sure the peasants were treated badly, but it was no different than how they were treated by Native rulers and the Spanish ended the gruesome practice of human sacrifice.

Indians in the New World died in large numbers of disease, something over which the Europeans had no control and no knowledge. In fact, lots of Europeans in the New World died of the same diseases only there were less of them.

What happened was part peaceful interaction and part conquest. Yes, the New World was ultimately conquered by the Europeans (with help from Native allies in many cases). There were fewer Indians and they did not have the economies to sustain long-term wars. It was a war they lost. But they were hardly hapless pacificist victims. That view of Indians is demeaning and wrong. And what happened was not genocide.

It is really too bad that a happy and good tradition like Thanksgiving has to be turned into a political football to benefit professional grievance mongers. And on a list dedicated to Catholicism no less. Wallowing in the alledged victimhood of one’s ancestors cheapens their memory and is not spiritually healthy.

jb
These historical facts were not stated in order to play the victim card,nor to gain any
sympathy.
After reading untruths written above, we wrote this in order to state actual historical
information so as to educate.

These facts are not invented, like the so-called “stories” invented within the history
book’s fed to us in most all public school’s since early 1900’s.

FYI:
caffeinedestiny.com/tigiving.html
Code:
        [rumela.com/events/thanks_origin.htm](http://www.rumela.com/events/thanks_origin.htm)
The Conquistador’s not only slaughtered thousands of Pueblo tribal Indians,tribal
Peope’s in California, and Florida, but also throughout Mexico, South America.
They also made many into imprisoned slaves to build their empire’s, and dig for
gold. This is absolute factual information that can be read for yourself in various
historical documents, and scientific journals.
Genocide was practiced then and now.
Only before the 20th century lovely blankets were “gifted” to our Peoples in B.C Canada by the loving Europeans, that were purposefully infected with smallpox. These blankets were received happily prior to hundreds, upon thousands dying of that disease.
Native American women have been encouraged by the hundreds of thousands from the
early 1900’s to this day to have hysterectomy’s, or their tubes cut, even if they were/are
childless, and disease free.
**
We are not grievance mongers. We are highly educated people, with PHD’s in law and
Native American Studies that only wished to share the WHOLE TRUTH about this
particular holiday.
Our intention was not to cause unhappiness with the people who enjoy this day of
feasting, but to put our truthful “two-cents” added to the pot, period.

Before you point a finger of accusation of saying we are stating untruths, you should
educate yourself with factual, and actual truths in regards to Native American History.

At least we did not resort to name-calling, defamation of character, and slander ever in these forums. **
 
First there was a thread - drawing from the ultra-conservative “Horvat” website - attempting to prove that the first American Thanksgiving was really an invention of the Spanish conquistadores. Then something similar gets brought up in the Apologist forum. And then it gets pointed out how anti-Catholic the Pilgrims were (which is, of course, true).

Is this a seasonal thing? As Catholics should we feel an obligation to detach ourselves from the “traditional” American Thanksgiving celebration in November?
I don’t pay attention about such matters. To me, it’s idiotic to lessen a holiday’s significance for gathering time of family and friends. And I do not know anyone who has any hate for Thanksgiving! I say, embrace the holiday and enjoy the company of those whom you love! 👍
 
Educate ourselves with factual truths?

With respect, I just went to that Caffeine Destiny link. And every single ‘source’ that was given for the piece of journalism came back as ‘file not found’, ‘page not available’.

Now you tell me how I am to accept an assertion of ‘facts’ when the sources listed for those facts just don’t seem to be available?
 
Again with respect, I find it much easier to accept sources as being historical and reliable when they are found in things like texts, or primary source documents. . .and NOT when they are found on a ‘woman’s web’ site or in an on-line literary ‘digest’ of poetry and creative writing.
 
Sure the peasants were treated badly, but it was no different than how they were treated by Native rulers and the Spanish ended the gruesome practice of human sacrifice.
I hope you’re not suggesting that all American Indians practiced human sacrifice (which is very untrue). 😦
It is really too bad that a happy and good tradition like Thanksgiving has to be turned into a political football to benefit professional grievance mongers. And on a list dedicated to Catholicism no less. Wallowing in the alledged victimhood of one’s ancestors cheapens their memory and is not spiritually healthy.
Agreed. 👍
 
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