Why the hostility toward Mary?

[GaryTaylor]

Yep. That’s why we don’t baptise infants. They don’t need it.

Of course, we don’t think anybody has ever made it much past the age of 8 (the age of accountability) without sinning…unless of course the person has no understanding of the difference between right and wrong.

Except, of course, for Jesus Himself.

Diana I didn’t know this about your faith. So I don’t mean to offend you either. I understand now what I didn’t understand a few posts back.

My question would be then. Why John the Baptist, and Christ being Baptised in the Good Book?

 

[dianaiad]

Curious, indeed!

So St. Paul’s “all have sinned” really means, “*except *Jesus, and except the billions of souls who were created in their infancy?”

And do you believe that those with Down syndrome are excluded in Paul’s inspired words?

Even St. Paul exempted Jesus from that one, PRmerger. …and all of us were 'created in their infancy." We do believe that Paul was referring to everybody who COULD sin…if they could, they did.

As for Downes syndrome sufferers…that depends. I’ve met many of these (mostly wonderfully loving and special people…I taught swimming in the summer to Down’s syndrome children for five years, and fell in absolute love with each and every one of 'em) who knew the difference between right and wrong—and a few who didn’t. I’m sure that God knows who does, and who doesn’t.

My personal opinion is…if the child can tell you what baptism is for, and what a sin is–even if he or she has to explain it very simply and very differently, then s/he’s probably capable. IF not, then…not. Again, God knows.

 

[dianaiad]

No. Mary has no divine nature. She was saved by Her Son just like everyone else, but the difference is when His redemptive sacrifice was applied to Her.

OK…explain?

 

[freerf]

No. Mary has no divine nature. She was saved by Her Son just like everyone else, but the difference is when His redemptive sacrifice was applied to Her.

Nope, still don’t get it. I’m trying, but i don’t. how was time then in any way significant to the Passion?

 

[PRmerger]

OK…I understand, sort of…

Though I do have to shake my head at the idea that original sin is all about sex (a lack of concupiscence makes abstaining from sin easier? I can see where it would make abstaining from sexual sin easier, but what about all the other sorts?) .

This is fodder for another thread–is celibacy really about abstaining from sex? And, of course, it isn’t.

As for original sin being “all about sex”…noooo. Concupiscence is our desire to like things that aren’t good for us. Think of it like we were made initially to like nuts and berries, but concupiscence makes us like devil’s food cake.

I am also having some problems wrapping my mind around the idea that Mary was concieved without concupiscence being involved, and I’m trying very hard to find a way to express the problem with this and still stay…hmmn…

What? The CC has no teaching on whether Sts. Joachim and Ann conceived Mary with sinful thoughts (one would think not!) or glorious thoughts (one would hope!). But, we don’t know.

 

[PRmerger]

Even St. Paul exempted Jesus from that one, PRmerger.

Hmmm… the verse reads, “all have sinned” not “all have sinned except Jesus.”

 

[Cat_Herder]

OK…explain?

From Ineffabilis Deus:

the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

Mary was conceived without sin, not because of anything she did, but rather because the Father looked forward through time and knew that Mary would say yes to His request. Thus, He granted to Her, in view of her being the Mother of Jesus and because of Christ’s future sacrifice, preservation from original sin.

 

[PRmerger]

That may be true. IT’s also irrelevant.

It’s quite relevant, actually, diana.

If she was baptised, then she was a Catholic, right?

Yes she was.

 

[freerf]

Because of the Reality that God the Holy Spirit is pure and sinless. He couldn’t be born into mans Sins. Thats God chosing to be born as the Son of Man. His goal was to send a Savior to die for mans Sin. The Redemtion of man. He couldn’t have accomplished this with Sin. What would have been the purpose?

Marys conceived without sin. Through the grace of God. In the Bible Mary is Full of Grace. Nobody else in the good book is Full of Grace. So when we say Full of Grace. Theres nothing else there but Gods Grace. No room for nothing else. Not 99.999 Grace and ,0001% Sin. Full of Grace.

I can’t even comprehend what Full of Grace consists of. I know no-one Full of Grace. Mary is without a doubt on her own level. She’s on a plane which is hers alone. The Angels great her Hail Mary. They are not on her plane. Above Mary is only the Trinity.

We know Mary has a tremendous relationship with God. Who has that in the New Testament? We are still comprehending the reality of Mary. The Holy Spirit without a doubt sent her to be known the last two hundred years.

I think your logic still fails the chicken-egg test? Someone, down that line sinned. If Mary was sinless and was born of sinners, surly Christ could be sinless born of sinners.

Full of Grace does not seem to imply room for nothing else. My barn can be full of hay, my brain full of mush, and my house full of kids, but that doesn’t imply there is nothing else.

I agree that Mary must have been wonderfully special, i just don’t see the need for all the overboard reverence. surely if Mary is as Great as Catholics make her out to be, she’d want your reverence for Christ and not herself?

 

[PRmerger]

As for Downes syndrome sufferers…that depends. I’ve met many of these (mostly wonderfully loving and special people…I taught swimming in the summer to Down’s syndrome children for five years, and fell in absolute love with each and every one of 'em) who knew the difference between right and wrong—and a few who didn’t. I’m sure that God knows who does, and who doesn’t.

Fair enough.

So, in your example that “all have sinned” (and that must necessarily include Mary 'cause it says “all”, right?) you note that there’s billions of exceptions to this “all”. Little ones up through the age of reason, some with Down syndrome.

I might add there’s millions more–those with Williams syndrome, those with agenesis of the corpus collosum, those with autism, etc etc etc…who you would reasonably except from this verse that “all” have sinned?

Yet this verse is cited to state that “all” had to have included Mary?

Curiouser and curiouser indeed!

 

[PRmerger]

I think your logic still fails the chicken-egg test? Someone, down that line sinned. If Mary was sinless and was born of sinners, surly Christ could be sinless born of sinners.

Yes, I think that to say that Mary had to have been born sinless in order for Jesus to have been sinless is a poor argument.

Rather, we propose that it was fitting for Mary to have been born sinless, but not required.

Heck, Jesus could have come to earth as a fully grown man and still been sinless, eh?

 

[freerf]

Yes, I think that to say that Mary had to have been born sinless in order for Jesus to have been sinless is a poor argument.

Rather, we propose that it was fitting for Mary to have been born sinless, but not required.

Heck, Jesus could have come to earth as a fully grown man and still been sinless, eh?

very good! but it doesn’t seem to be a “proposal.” i thought it was an infallable teaching or something? as a Catholic, you are supposed to believe this on faith, right? not something i’d do with a proposal.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I think your logic still fails the chicken-egg test? Someone, down that line sinned. If Mary was sinless and was born of sinners, surly Christ could be sinless born of sinners.

Full of Grace does not seem to imply room for nothing else. My barn can be full of hay, my brain full of mush, and my house full of kids, but that doesn’t imply there is nothing else.

I agree that Mary must have been wonderfully special, i just don’t see the need for all the overboard reverence. surely if Mary is as Great as Catholics make her out to be, she’d want your reverence for Christ and not herself?

Mary is Conceived without sin.

Marys a Great Catholic? Well let me ask you this Who in you church is greated by Angels and Full of Grace?

You can be Full of anything, but I assure you you arn’t Full of Grace. Do you know anybody full of grace?

Mary converts your right there that is the goal.

Of God so respected Mary. How should you respect her?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Now where in the Bible does Mary have sin? Wheres that verse, or is that assumtion? I been waiting a year here for someone to arrive with that scripture You have it? You might be the one?

 

[GaryTaylor]

very good! but it doesn’t seem to be a “proposal.” i thought it was an infallable teaching or something? as a Catholic, you are supposed to believe this on faith, right? not something i’d do with a proposal.

How do you explain God born into someone with Sin and not have Sin? God can’t have SIn, Mary can’t have sin.

Explain to me how else this could possibly work IN YOUR RELIGION

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, I think that to say that Mary had to have been born sinless in order for Jesus to have been sinless is a poor argument.

Rather, we propose that it was fitting for Mary to have been born sinless, but not required.

Heck, Jesus could have come to earth as a fully grown man and still been sinless, eh?

Then I"m here waiting for your explaination of how God was Born into SIn without Sin?

Not required? What catechism did you attend.

I’m astounded your Catholic and would say that.

 

[freerf]

How do you explain God born into someone with Sin and not have Sin? God can’t have SIn, Mary can’t have sin.

Explain to me how else this could possibly work IN YOIUR RELIGION

Well, in my religion, i don’t presume to know how God is born into someone either way.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Sounds like you don’t know what you believe. Here learn the Truth

Mary was Conceived without Sin, here…

The “New American Version” may be a more recent translation, but in this incident, it fails to, in the most accurate manner, explain what God’s Angel actually was saying. This is of extreme importance in answering your query. So, we will quote the Douay-Rheims bible, which is the first English, translation of the bible, translated from St. Jerome’s, Latin Vulgate bible.

Why this bible: The Vulgate is the original bible, translated from “Greek and Aramaic (the language actually spoken by Jesus Himself) into Latin, around 350 AD. The Douay-Rheims bible, was published around the year 1600, and approved the Universal Church Council of Trent, as “authoritative and accurate.”

Luke 1: 26: “And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The proof of this more accurate translation, is itself proof that while “Mary is conceived without sin,” is not specifically articulated in “the bible,” the truth that she was, hear me now, had to be, is in the bible.

In explaining the Catholic Faith, we use 1. Sacred Scripture, 2. Sacred Tradition, and 3. Common sense. Why?

John 21: 24-25 “24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. “

Clearly, God (the Holy Spirit) impregnated the “Virgin Mary”. She did give birth to a son, fathered by God, and thus has to be the “Mother of God.” Amen?The Blessed Virgin Mary: Ever Virgin and ever Sinless.

We read above in John Gospel that God never intended to have everything He wished us to know written down in the bible. I challenge you to show me where it says that it is. Also we learn in 2 Timothy 3:16 –17 “ All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

In searching for biblical evidence of the truth we will go back to the book of Exodus, and learn what God demanded of Moses for the Ark of the Promised Covenant.” Ex. Chapter 25: 10-11… and a cubit and a half its height. 11 And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it,

Again we ask, why God insisted on “pure gold?” The answer lies in who and what God is.

God has all attributes, and “all attributes to there most full and most perfect extent.” Amen? Thus God is everything that is “good, beautiful and perfect and lovely,” and can do nothing that does not reflect His perfect attributes, to do so would mean that He wasn’t God. Amen?

So in this passage we see Yahweh God, the Great “I Am,” telling Moses exactly what He expects for His Ark BECAUSE it will contain the Covenant, and thus the spiritual presence of God Himself. God cannot be in something that is not pure! It was true then, and it’s true now. It is also significant that the Ark contained the “Commandments” which of course deal with purity of life.

Our next question gets directly to the issue of Mary’s “Perpetual Virginity.” Why did this HAVE to be true? Answer: God, All Perfect God, COULD Not accept anything less from the “ark / tabernacle” that would contain for nine months, give flesh to, and give birth to His Son, the very Son of God. Amen? Mary had to be Virgin, and Mary had to be free of all sin, in order to accomplish what Her Perfect God Willed to be accomplished.

Another question, did Mary “merit” this extraordinary, once in the world honor? No and yes is the answer. No, as it was through the future Merits of the sacrifice of her Son, Jesus, that She gained the necessary merit. However, it was Mary’s free will that always conformed fully, to the Will of God, Her Creator that permitted God to choose her from all women throughout All of Creation for the Singular honor. It is God who made Mary a Sinless Virgin, and it was God, who kept Mary as a Sinless Virgin, because it suited His Divine Will, and His Perfect Nature. Amen?

Mary HAD to be perfect (both Virgin and sinless) because a less than perfect person COULD NOT give birth to “The Perfect God.” For the same reason, and as a singular honor, God Willed that Mary, the Mother of the “Son of God,” remain perfect, as is God’s Will and certainly within God’s powers, no doubt in complete affirmation of the Will of Jesus as a manifestation of the love for His Mother. Amen?

God Bless,

 

[JackVk]

Well, in my religion, i don’t presume to know how God is born into someone either way.

Genesis 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman”. I know you may say that this is in Genesis and is long before Jesus was born of the the Blessed Virgin, but keep in mind that God is not constrained by time and space. Events and concepts are mentioned throughout and between both Testaments.

Back to the passage. If there is enmity between the woman and the serpent, then the woman, who IS Mary, could have never sided with the serpent. Thus, Mary is sinless.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well, in my religion, i don’t presume to know how God is born into someone either way.

Then your not reading the Bible my friend. Its in the Bible. Nobody is talking about anything but BIble here. You wrongly concluded my conversation wasn’t Bible related.

Because I was loosly talking on belief, you jumped to conclusions

God is telling us in LUKE exactly how the conception is taking place. Its on the first page. For Mary born without sin read above post.