Why the hostility toward Mary?

[Cat_Herder]

Why should I pray the HM?

Because you are required to call her blessed before everyone. That includes God.

 

[PRmerger]

Yet through Gods interevention with Anne this is without doubt possible.

That, Gary, is the most important thing you’ve said in this thread. :extrahappy:

***And it negates your entire premise that Mary HAD to be sinless in order for a sinless Christ to enter her womb.

---

“Through God’s intervention”, as you say above, “this is without doubt possible.”

 

[PRmerger]

She did not have to be sinless and I don’t see how her being sinless would be fitting either.

Fair enough.

It makes one wonder, though, why God gave such explicit instructions for the materials to be used in the building of the Ark of the Covenant in the OT.

Any old piece of wood would have been fine for the Divine Presence, eh?

 

[PRmerger]

I “think” I may have misunderstood what PR was talking about with Mary. I assume he’s referring to Mary remaining sinless through life is not required.

Nope, Gary. Not even close to what I’ve been saying. :nope:

But I will continue to pursue this discourse for the benefit of the many lurkers, who, I hope, will get it right.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Fair enough.

It makes one wonder, though, why God gave such explicit instructions for the materials to be used in the building of the Ark of the Covenant in the OT.

Any old piece of wood would have been fine for the Divine Presence, eh?

GOOD POINT:thumbsup:

 

[Janet1983]

Because you are required to call her blessed before everyone. That includes God.

Calling her blessed in front of the Lord does not require me to say a prayer directed towards her (addressing her).
Me saying that she is blessed and telling you is already proclaiming it before the Lord. Why then would I be required to recite the HM?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Calling her blessed in front of the Lord does not require me to say a prayer directed towards her (addressing her).

Your prayer is directed by her, and the other saints, whether you like it or not. That’s just how heaven works…
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Janet1983]

Your prayer is directed by her, and the other saints, whether you like it or not. That’s just how heaven works…

I make it a point not to comment on Revelation. At all. I will however take this offer and turn it into one that I can answer to:
… saints you say.
All believers are saints. Paul declares this:

“To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 1:7

“Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;” Ephesians 3:8

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:” Ephesians 4:11-12

The people Paul calls saints are all believers in Jesus Christ.

But it’s not only Paul:
"Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem."Acts 9:13
“And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.” Acts 9:32
“And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.” Acts 9:41
“Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.” Acts 26:10

Here are the ones from the Epistles I didn’t list individually… There might be more though.
I had to put these here in 2 packs as biblegateway won’t let me query more than 25. If you click on it you will see a list with the verses that are in the link text.

Acts 9:13; Acts 9:32; Acts 9:41; Acts 26:10; Romans 1:7; Romans 8:27; Romans 12:13; Romans 15:25; Romans 15:26; Romans 15:31; Romans 16:2; Romans 16:15; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 6:1; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 14:33; 1 Corinthians 16:1; 1 Corinthians 16:15; 2 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 8:4; 2 Corinthians 9:1; 2 Corinthians 9:12; 2 Corinthians 13:13; Ephesians 1:1; Ephesians 1:15; Ephesians 1:18; Ephesians 2:19; Ephesians 3:8; Ephesians 3:18; Ephesians 4:12; Ephesians 5:3; Ephesians 6:18; Philippians 1:1; Philippians 4:22; Colossians 1:2; Colossians 1:4; Colossians 1:12; Colossians 1:26; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Timothy 5:10; Philemon 1:5; Philemon 1:7; Hebrews 6:10; Hebrews 13:24; Jude 1:3; Jude 1:14.

Sorry it took so long…

 

[Cat_Herder]

All believers are saints.

No, Paul does not say that. Let’s go through your cites one by one.

“To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 1:7

“Called to be” =/= “are”

“Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;” Ephesians 3:8

This tends to support the Catholic view that sanctification is seldom completed on earth. If Paul was completely sanctified he wouldn’t have made this statement.

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:” Ephesians 4:11-12

Again, the saints are in the process of being perfected.

The people Paul calls saints are all believers in Jesus Christ.

You are missing the tie between “believer” and “saint,” aka salvation by faith alone–which is not in the Bible.

"Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem."Acts 9:13
“And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.” Acts 9:32
“And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.” Acts 9:41
“Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.” Acts 26:10

Yes, there are saints on earth. But this is a red herring. The saints being referred to in Revelation are both the ones on earth who supplied the prayers/incense (the Church Militant), and the elders performing service and worship to the Lord (the Church Triumphant).

 

[Janet1983]

YYes, there are saints on earth. But this is a red herring. The saints being referred to in Revelation are both the ones on earth who supplied the prayers/incense (the Church Militant), and the elders performing service and worship to the Lord (the Church Triumphant).

I have given you numerous sources in which the believers are mentioned as saints. My point is that the saints prayers are going up to God. Our prayers being heard by Him.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I have given you numerous sources in which the believers are mentioned as saints.

The Bible does not say that only believers are saints or even that people are saints only because they are believers. Both are conclusions that do not follow from your premise.

My point is that the saints prayers are going up to God.

Through human beings in heaven.

Our prayers being heard by Him.

Amen.

 

[Roy5]

I’m saying adieu to this thread as it seems pointless to keep making the same point.

As may be obvious by now, though I have a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage, I am bending toward a liberal "big tent’ view of Christianity. In brief, this means that my focus continues to be on Christ and his basic teachings, but over the years I have been increasingly skeptical of what seem to me to be ‘pagan influences’ within Christianity. The CC often presents itself as continuing and fulfilling, as it were, the essentials of Judaism, adding, of course, the messiahship of Jesus.

In contrast, I've come to believe, after years of questioning, reading, inquiry and the like, that Christianity was badly tainted by paganism early in its history. Once it moved beyond the Holy Land it picked up various strains from the Greco-Roman world, especially the Roman Empire. including an emphasis upon a virgin goddess, central in important faiths at that time around the Mediterrean Sea - Greece, Roman, Egypt, etc. 

This resulted in the rise of the cult of the Virgin Mary, growing quite powerful by about 200-250 AD. Lots of traditions gradually invaded Christianity that would have shocked Jesus (in my view). Monotheism became compromised with the Mary cult, which elevated her far above anything suggested in the Bible. All sorts of doctrines amd folklore re Mary became central to the faith. We have no scriptural reference to her parents, for example - Anne and Joachim, according to legends that gradually became dogma.

 The real issue here is authority. Devout Catholics accept whatever their church says, and I understand that. There are moments when that can seem attractive, as it doesn't compel me to evaluate, reason or question but be a loyal member of the tribe and simply believe and defend whatever the church teaches. Say whatever you will (normally such people as me are accused of egotism in one form or another), I find too much in Catholicism that seems pagan and primitive and out of sync with modern and rational thinking.

 This bothers me. But what also troubles me is that there is so much good in Catholicism today, especially in its concern for the poor, its educational and medical facilities serving all, and other laudable efforts and projects. It saddens me that I find myself unable to accept the mythology that crept into and corrupted Catholicism. Frankly, I find that many of my Catholic or ex-Catholic friends feel similarly. Some continue to attend mass faithfully because of family or friends or cultural ties or a particular priest whom they like. Others have become cafeteria Catholics may who show up Christmas and Easter. Others have become liberal Protestants, which I fully understand. Some have become sola scriptura Protestants, which I don't understand - trading one absolute authority for another. Many have simply decided that what they regard as an ancient religion has become more-or-less irrelevant and spend Sunday mornings involved with family, in recreation or watching all those informative programs on TV.  

 But God bless everybody. Christianity has such a checkered history - sadly - and so often has betrayed Jesus while proclaiming his name and claiming to follow him. Let's work together to make religion a bridge instead of a barrier. I am ready and eager to respect those who are traditional in their views, including Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox and others. I am respectful, as well, of moderate Islam, and of honest Hindus and Buddhists, etc. The arrogance and even bitterness that sometimes pervades threads here on CAF needs to be tempered by a spirit of reconciliation and mutual respect, greater understanding, and a desire to mirror the love commanded and exhibited by Christ.

 Perhaps we'll 'see you' on another thread? Meanwhile, Godspeed.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I’m saying adieu to this thread as it seems pointless to keep making the same point.

As may be obvious by now, though I have a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage, I am bending toward a liberal "big tent’ view of Christianity. In brief, this means that my focus continues to be on Christ and his basic teachings, but over the years I have been increasingly skeptical of what seem to me to be ‘pagan influences’ within Christianity. The CC often presents itself as continuing and fulfilling, as it were, the essentials of Judaism, adding, of course, the messiahship of Jesus.

You’re on to something. The Jews had ablution, blood sacrifice, the Bread of the Presence, a priesthood, etc.

In contrast, I've come to believe, after years of questioning, reading, inquiry and the like, that Christianity was badly tainted by paganism early in its history. Once it moved beyond the Holy Land it picked up various strains from the Greco-Roman world, especially the Roman Empire. including an emphasis upon a virgin goddess, central in important faiths at that time around the Mediterrean Sea - Greece, Roman, Egypt, etc.

By your logic Isaiah was a cultist of this virgin.

This resulted in the rise of the cult of the Virgin Mary, growing quite powerful by about 200-250 AD.

The Holy Spirit said all generations will call her blessed. By the way, if the church was compromised so soon, then is Jesus a liar?

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 16:18[/BIBLEDRB]

Lots of traditions gradually invaded Christianity that would have shocked Jesus (in my view). Monotheism became compromised with the Mary cult, which elevated her far above anything suggested in the Bible. All sorts of doctrines amd folklore re Mary became central to the faith. We have no scriptural reference to her parents, for example - Anne and Joachim, according to legends that gradually became dogma.

We have no scriptural reference to the end of the Temple rituals either. Did you go up to Jerusalem for the pasch this year?

The real issue here is authority. Devout Catholics accept whatever their church says, and I understand that.

You are completely omitting the existence of converts who study the Bible and the evidence and come to the conclusion that the Church is what she claims to be.

I find too much in Catholicism that seems pagan and primitive and out of sync with modern and rational thinking.

We invented science, you know.

Ponder this Scripture. You decide who the woman is.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 12[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[JustaServant]

If I may politely interject into this debate.

In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.

In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.

God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.

In the early church, this thinking never changed.

When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’.

I lost my father in 1984, my mother in 1999. If I were still across the Tiber I would feel helpless in communicating anything to my parents. How much I miss them, how much I love them, how I wish I could speak to them again.

As an evangelical there was no hope in that, they were ‘cut off’ and probably in Hell since they died Catholic (this was made very clear to me by many a preacher). I am so glad those dark days are over.

Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.

The Blessed Mother is our ‘connection’ to our loved ones who have gone on before us. I know when I pray the Hail Mary for my parents it will be recieved. When I ask her to send a message to my parents, or my grandparents, I know they recieved it because of our Blessed Mother.

I truly feel sorry for those who do not have this comfort. Because I know what it was like not to have it. And then have it restored to me. A weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I felt at peace for the first time in many years.

You can argue the theology until you grow hoarse or your fingers bleed from typing.
Until you see for yourself the love God gave us through the Blessed Mother, you’ll never understand.

But I pray someday you do.

 

[pismopal]

If I may politely interject into this debate.

In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.

In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.

God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.

In the early church, this thinking never changed.

When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’.

I lost my father in 1984, my mother in 1999. If I were still across the Tiber I would feel helpless in communicating anything to my parents. How much I miss them, how much I love them, how I wish I could speak to them again.

As an evangelical there was no hope in that, they were ‘cut off’ and probably in Hell since they died Catholic (this was made very clear to me by many a preacher). I am so glad those dark days are over.

Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.

The Blessed Mother is our ‘connection’ to our loved ones who have gone on before us. I know when I pray the Hail Mary for my parents it will be recieved. When I ask her to send a message to my parents, or my grandparents, I know they recieved it because of our Blessed Mother.

I truly feel sorry for those who do not have this comfort. Because I know what it was like not to have it. And then have it restored to me. A weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I felt at peace for the first time in many years.

You can argue the theology until you grow hoarse or your fingers bleed from typing.
Until you see for yourself the love God gave us through the Blessed Mother, you’ll never understand.

But I pray someday you do.

Nicely done and from the heart:thumbsup: I also spent time on that side of the river and heard enough anti Catholic sentiment to cause me to wonder about Catholic theology. A lot of study brought me where I should be…thankfully.

 

[mrsavedbygrace]

If everything is to be based off of the bible, Christ alone should be venerated. I’ve seen several catholic priest say that Mary is only venerated and not worship but the truth of the matter is, veneration is actually worship. A lot of stuff atrivuted to Mary by the catholic church has no scriptural backing which confuses a lot. I’ve actually seen a lot of places where they compared Mary of the catholic with semiremis and it fit so perfectly. My inlaws spend all night listening to tape that says countless time “Mary pray for us”. A lot of titled attributed to Mary by the catholic can actually be traced to Isis who is also semiremis. My mother inlaw actually said that Mary is the second eve as Jesus is the second Adam. Mary receives veneration but Christ receieves persecution. He’s always seen on the cross looking wounded and pained while Mary looks happy and graceful. I’ve read cathcism and I know what am saying. I worship in holy family but never converted or partake ib ant tradition. Mary has been given all the titles that Isis/semiremis was known with.in my opinion, if Christ was still alive, Catholics won’t recognize him as our saviour because he never venerated Mary or placed her above anyone of his disciples. He actually denied her several times knowing that s day shall come when his glory will be transfered to her. I can site a lot of examples, Christ said that whoever believe in his father is his mother, brother, sister,etc. Mary was chosed because the prophecy had to be fulfilled. Mary wad no angel or almighty being but a mere mortal and a sinful one too who actually asked fir salvation fron the lord. The Mary of the bible actually had children and lived a happy family life with Joseph but catholics Mary remained s virgin toll death just like semiremis.

 

[Cat_Herder]

If everything is to be based off of the bible,

[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 2:14[/BIBLEDRB]

Christ alone should be venerated.

[BIBLEDRB]Jos 5:13-16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Dan 8:17[/BIBLEDRB]

I’ve seen several catholic priest say that Mary is only venerated and not worship but the truth of the matter is, veneration is actually worship. A lot of stuff atrivuted to Mary by the catholic church has no scriptural backing which confuses a lot.

Please read your Bible.

My inlaws spend all night listening to tape that says countless time “Mary pray for us”.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]

My mother inlaw actually said that Mary is the second eve as Jesus is the second Adam.

She’s right.

[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

Mary receives veneration but Christ receieves persecution. He’s always seen on the cross looking wounded and pained while Mary looks happy and graceful.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 1:23[/BIBLEDRB]

I’ve read cathcism and I know what am saying.

Not the footnotes that cite the Bible.

I worship in holy family but never converted or partake ib ant tradition. Mary has been given all the titles that Isis/semiremis was known with.in my opinion, if Christ was still alive, Catholics won’t recognize him as our saviour because he never venerated Mary or placed her above anyone of his disciples.

[BIBLEDRB]John 19:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

He actually denied her several times knowing that s day shall come when his glory will be transfered to her.

[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 20:12[/BIBLEDRB]

I can site a lot . Mary wad no angel or almighty being but a mere mortal and a sinful one too who actually asked fir salvation fron the lord.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 12:1-6[/BIBLEDRB]

The Mary of the bible actually had children and lived a happy family life with Joseph but catholics Mary remained s virgin toll death just like semiremis.

She did not. The children are of another Mary.

May St. Dymphna intercede for you and may her prayers, offered as incense to the LORD, bring harmony to your family.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Mary HAD to be sinless in order for a sinless God

Well if your point is that the Blessed Mother didn’t need be sinless in order for Christ to be sinless. What is, isn’t, could be, would have and should have is sort of contrary to what is. And if this isn’t the thinking, then enlighten us on your thoughts/beliefs. Because I fail to grasp what “your” thinking is?

“I will put enmity between thee and the woman and her seed; she [by Our Lord] shall crush thy head and thou shalt lie in wait for her [His] heel” (Gen. 3:15). The serpent destroyed sanctifying grace in man; how could she conquer him, except by being sinless herself?

St. Irenaeus states, “Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.” Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert…: “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith.” Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary “the Mother of the living” and frequently claim: “Death through Eve, life through Mary.”

BTW- I’m not grasping how you follow Catholic teaching and not believe in the Immaculate Conception? Which is Mary without “Stain” “Sin”. Sounds much more Protestant than Catholic to me. Which I have no problem with either. I fail to see your belief posted here. I do see many of your comments on “others” beliefs. Why not expand on yours concerning the Blessed Mother?

I see many comments by you that the “Apologists” of the Catholic Church don’t require this teaching. Yet I see you made mention of two Fathers, and suggest “we take your word for this on what they actually said?”

Yet World Wide every Monday night is the Novena of the Miraculous Medal Mass in the Catholic Church, Also aside from everything else mentioned in this thread concerning the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

You do know what exactly the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary is Right?

And this is the point you revert to it “fitting but not required” right? If thats the case why is it Required to attend Mass on Novemmber 8th? Why is there a infallable encycle and statement by the Pope in mid 1800’s? The we have the Canon Law, then we have weekly Novena Mass on Mondays.

Why are Catholics around the World praying this weekly?

Novena in Honor of Our Lady
of the Miraculous Medal

Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love. Send forth your Spirit, and they shall be created.
And you shall renew the face of the earth.
Let us pray. O God, who instructed the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit, grant us in the same Spirit to savor what is right, and always to rejoice in his consolation. Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
O Mary, conceived without sin, Pray for us who have recourse to you.

NOVENA PRAYER
Immaculate Virgin Mary, mother of our Lord Jesus and our mother, we have confidence in your powerful and never-failing intercession, manifested often through the Miraculous Medal. We your loving and trustful children, ask you to obtain for us the graces and favors we ask during this novena if they will be for the glory of God and the salvation of souls. (Here privately form your petitions.) You know, O Mary, how often our souls have been the sanctuaries of your Son who hates iniquity. Obtain for us then a deep hatred of sin and that purity of heart which will attach us to God alone so that our every thought, word, and deed may tend to his greater glory. Obtain for us also a spirit of prayer and self-denial that we may recover by penance what we have lost by sin and at length attain to that blessed abode

or this…

PRAYER TO OUR LADY OF THE MIRACULOUS MEDAL
Leader and People: Virgin Mother of God, Mary Immaculate, we unite ourselves to you under your title of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal. May this medal be for each one of us a sure sign of your motherly affection for us and a constant reminder of our filial duties towards you. While wearing it, may we be blessed by your loving protection and preserved in the grace of your Son. Most powerful Virgin, Mother of our Savior, keep us close to you every moment of our lives so that like you we may live and act according to the teaching and example of your Son. Obtain for us, your children, the grace of a happy death so that in union with you we may enjoy the happiness of heaven forever. Amen.
O Mary, conceived without sin,
Pray for us who have recourse to you.

CLOSING PRAYER
O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us: O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

My friend thats a LOT of world wide Mary Conceived without Sin.

then…

Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.

Amen.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Nicely done and from the heart:thumbsup

Agee’d

I also every much like what Elvis made mention of earlier in this thread about the reality of conversion atttibuted to the Blessed Mother. Which is very obvious in the Novena Mass on Monday NIght.

I’m amazed how this particular Mass fills and empys followers into the Sunday Mass.

Which is a testament of Our Lady being very active today.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The New Ark of Covenant being Our Lady?

And yes I go along with this also, “This the Blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant” refers to Jesus Christ during the Eucharist. . So then what would this make his Blessed Mother Mary? The New Ark of the Covenant no?